invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[GrumpiusMaximus]

Lady Grumpius and I were looking at a house the other day that needed a bit of a renovation.  It had that carpet.  It was quite... something.

[Eyersey1234]

14 hours ago, ETCHY said:

I assume you know about them already, but will you be getting one of the Oxford Diecast Invacars when they come out? I certainly will !

I didn't know there was one coming out, has a release date been announced? 

[ETCHY]

1 hour ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I didn't know there was one coming out, has a release date been announced? 

Q4 2020 is what I've seen so I've got one on my Christmas list.

Quite reasonable too at around 7 quid.

I've not seen any actual pics yet though just basic side view drawings.

[quicksilver]

28 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

Q4 2020 is what I've seen so I've got one on my Christmas list.

Quite reasonable too at around 7 quid.

I've not seen any actual pics yet though just basic side view drawings.

I'd love to be proved wrong but it'll probably be next year now. That release date was announced before the coronavirus screwed everything up and I don't think Oxford have been able to do much development work on new castings.

[LightBulbFun]

had Lesson 44 yesterday went pretty well  (despite my back flaring up big time on the drive back home, that was not fun!)

we did some reversing into a car park parking bay and driving back out which went well once I figured out my points ie what part of the car to line up with the painted lines of the bays so I know when to start turning etc (my instructor says that the test centre here will only ever get you to drive into a bay and then reverse out of it rather then into it, but I think he had me do the above just to be safe cover all bases etc)

have to say for some reason, I do struggle with the Pug 208 with regards to its size in that, im never quite sure how big or small I am or where all 4 corners are if that makes any sense?  im not sure if its the 208's crap visibility or what, but I know for example when driving REV around the FoD I always felt I knew where all 4 of her corners where and how big/small she was etc...

 

next lesson is on Tuesday   

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, SiC said:

Put my new automatic seatbelts in last night. I'm sure some will think it's sacrilege to replace fixed belts with retractable, but those fixed belts really aren't very comfortable. Almost like they exist purely to tick the requirement of front seat belts but they know really most users will leave them adjusted right back and not use them...

for some reason until Dollywobbler and someone who's name escapes me at the moment fitted modern seatbelts to their car

it never occurred to me that you could change/update seatbelts if you wanted to

but has made me I wonder what options there might be for REV, as she currently has an old style fixed belt, that I think would be a good idea to replace with something more modern to make things a bit easier for my already limited mobility

so I would like to replace it with a better inertia reel one at some point in time, tho obviously I currently have bigger things to worry about like actually getting her road worthy first!

 

it is interesting to note the Spare parts list does actually list an inertia reel seatbelt, but I think this was something that replaced the fixed belt part later on in time (the parts manual being from 1984)

ie if a Model 70's seatbelt got damaged and needed replacing then it would be replaced by this inertia reel seatbelt rather then a fixed type one (I cant find any mention of any other seat belts in the parts list apart from the inertia reel and full harness ones)

[SiC]

Securon is the main British manufacturer of aftermarket belts. Commonly used on classic cars and coaches. Should find something that is suitable.

 

There are also cheaper no name belts that say they meet European Standards.

 

Kangol nowadays are just cheap crap clothes brand owned by Sports Direct. But Securon should have something suitable as a good replacement.

 

 

[Slowsilver]

Sold individually because unlike almost every other car you only need one ?.
 

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, SiC said:

Securon is the main British manufacturer of aftermarket belts. Commonly used on classic cars and coaches. Should find something that is suitable.

 

There are also cheaper no name belts that say they meet European Standards.

 

Kangol nowadays are just cheap crap clothes brand owned by Sports Direct. But Securon should have something suitable as a good replacement.

 

 

ah thats good to know yeah ill definitely go for a Securon or such, safety equipment is not something I want to cheap out on!

yeah figured it would not be too hard to find something that would work, it just bolts to a few places nothing particularly special AFAIK

(well famous last words! knowing my luck its all going to be special impossible to find high tensile strength Whitworth bolts now that I have said that! LOL)

 

[Mr Pastry]

7 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

knowing my luck its all going to be special impossible to find high tensile strength Whitworth bolts  bolts now that I have said that! LOL)

Seat belt mountings are an international standard, 7/16 UNF and have been since the early days of seatbelts.  It is very rare to find an exception, should be a straight swap.

[SiC]

Not sure you need to be too worried. Only need enough restraint to stop you going through the windscreen/into the handlebars in a light shunt. Any bigger accodent you won't need to worry about a seatbelt in an Invacar.

[LightBulbFun]

54 minutes ago, SiC said:

Not sure you need to be too worried. Only need enough restraint to stop you going through the windscreen/into the handlebars in a light shunt. Any bigger accodent you won't need to worry about a seatbelt in an Invacar.

now im not saying they are volvo levels of safe, its still a 1970's car after all!, im well aware that a modern car is 100x safer in a crash, and I very much do not want to have a crash in one!

 

but I will defend the Model 70 a little bit in regards to safety a lot of people tend to think the Model 70 had no previsions for safety what so ever, but some thought did actually go into it

contrary to popular belief, they where actually crash tested and modified to comply with the EU regulations of the time

the front mudguard over the front wheel was even made collapsable as I guess a crude form of crumple zone? and later Model 70's where even fitted with a rollover bar, something most sports cars didn't even have back then! (and the rollover bar was fitted just as a general safety feature, not because they would rollover like a top gear modified relient!) and then of course ever single one came with a fire extinguisher as standard 

it also did not help that the standard procedure back in the day was because of the already generally fairly fragile nature of invalid vehicle drivers, that regardless of the severity of the shunt the procedure was to always have the fire brigade cut the driver out the vehicle, which in doing so usually made a mess of the vehicle which did not look good in aftermath photographs and the such like!

 

to give you some idea how a Model 70 would fair in a crash, heres an aftermath picture of an Invacar Model 70 that was sadly banger raced back in the day, it was crashed into a few cars bounced off a flood lighting pole before smashing into an advertising board and coming to a halt

(the person who drove it, tied the handle bars in place to stop them moving about, only to find out that he had disabled his brakes in doing so LOL)

and there is the poor one from the film whoops apocalypse

 

[Eyersey1234]

I didn't know Model 70s got banger raced, every day is a school day

[LightBulbFun]

22 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I didn't know Model 70s got banger raced, every day is a school day

Yeah sadly quite a few have over the years, including apparently at one point an entire field of 15 of them in one go! I dont like them being banger raced but I do wonder if theres a picture of the starting grid, that would be quite the spectacle! 

it was only Model 70's tho, im not aware of any Villiers machines being banger raced, not sure anyone would survive that LOL

(the Villiers machines where much weaker/flimsier then the Model 70)

[Eyersey1234]

3 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah sadly quite a few have over the years, including apparently at one point an entire field of 15 of them in one go! I dont like them being banger raced but I do wonder if theres a picture of the starting grid, that would be quite the spectacle! 

it was only Model 70's tho, im not aware of any Villiers machines being banger raced, not sure anyone would survive that LOL

(the villers machines where much weaker/flimsier then the Model 70)

I don't like anything being banger raced but it did surprise me when you said Model 70s were. 

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I don't like anything being banger raced but it did surprise me when you said Model 70s were. 

Yeah

for completeness sake here are the remain 3 pictures I have of Model 70's at the banger track, I believe these 3 where taken during that special 15 car event

 

apparently they did hold up much better then the Reliants did LOL

[adw1977]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

... from the film whoops apocalypse

It does seem to stand up reasonably well to a heavy impact, although the indicator stops working immediately. 

I'm sure some forum members would enjoy watching that clip, but they won't be reading this thread!

[LightBulbFun]

35 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

It does seem to stand up reasonably well to a heavy impact, although the indicator stops working immediately. 

yeah, and its an offset impact too which I understand is one of the worst impacts for a vehicle, when I saw that video for the first time even I was impressed with how well it held up I would have expected to go right through the poor Model 70  into the rear, but it looks like it stops before significantly entering the cabin compartment

 

(as for the indicator stopping, if its a Model 70 Mark B then the battery will be mounted up front so probably got knocked lose on impact)

as side note on the engine front (or err rear?) with the Model 70 Mark B they did improve the engine mounting to help reduce the chance of it entering the cabin in the event of a heavy crash

35 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

I'm sure some forum members would enjoy watching that clip, but they won't be reading this thread!

you say that, but I was recently "invited" to the Autoshite discord server, where it turns out some general piss takery and not very nice things where being said about me and Invacars in general

but I saw that someone had posted a screen shot from that film of that crash and someone had mentioned they saw a GIF of it somewhere, I found that particularly amusing because I was the one who made the GIF and I have only ever posted it in this thread LOL

 

 

not very things being said aside tho, I did find this meme someone made which gave me a good laugh 

 

 

[Christine]

Racing invalid carriage 

[Christine]

It's actually a reliant

[plasticvandan]

There is a reason the dhss refused to publish the Mira crash test report.... 

[LightBulbFun]

 

51 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

There is a reason the dhss refused to publish the Mira crash test report.... 

bits and pieces where, you just have to know where to find them!

and that was of a Model 70 Mark A, to which the main issue reported was the fuel tank rupturing on impact, to which the DHSS did release a modification kit to rectify the issue, the results of the test where studied and resulted in the improved Model 70 Mark B  

it also worth mentioning that MIRA said the Model 70 Mark A compared similarly to other cars of similar size 

so it was certainly not any worse then other cars of the time, which a lot of people sadly think it is/was...

[ETCHY]

I think the way to judge most older pre '90s cars is basically lethal and drive accordingly. Airbags and offset crash testing made a big difference to safety. Although on a very modern car you're more likely to have a wallop in the first place as you can't see out of the damn things as easily..

I do recall reading that fibreglass as it shatters, absorbs an impact well and helps put less stress on the occupant. I wouldn't suggest testing that out though..

[Jikovron]

A 30mph crash test will put the vehicle frame though roughly 25-30G depending on how quickly it deaccellarates, thusly in a car of 1200kg that's a peak force of 30,000-36000kg collapsing the chassis rail/reacting against the wall, an m70 in the same situation would be imparting a force of 10,000-12000kg giving a 20,000-24000kg disparity between them. 

Say you pit the vehicles against each other at 30mph that disparity becomes  problematic as the lighter vehicle takes this excess force as a reactive acceleration ie the G forces the driver experiences would be 2/3higher than the driver of the heavier vehicle the total force being 40,000-50000kg split and annihilated equally between the 1200kg car and the 400kg car doing 30mph into each other

20,000 -25000/ 400 =  50 - 62.5G

20,000 -25000 / 1200 = 16.66r - 20.833rG

I'm not knocking M70s, but I would urge caution in putting too much faith in the perceived safety features like the none triangulated roll over hoop, 'strong' chassis etc 

[ETCHY]

Are you still planning LBF to write a book about Invacars ?

 

[Eyersey1234]

17 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

A 30mph crash test will put the vehicle frame though roughly 25-30G depending on how quickly it deaccellarates, thusly in a car of 1200kg that's a peak force of 30,000-36000kg collapsing the chassis rail/reacting against the wall, an m70 in the same situation would be imparting a force of 10,000-12000kg giving a 20,000-24000kg disparity between them. 

Say you pit the vehicles against each other at 30mph that disparity becomes  problematic as the lighter vehicle takes this excess force as a reactive acceleration ie the G forces the driver experiences would be 2/3higher than the driver of the heavier vehicle the total force being 40,000-50000kg split and annihilated equally between the 1200kg car and the 400kg car doing 30mph into each other

20,000 -25000/ 400 =  50 - 62.5G

20,000 -25000 / 1200 = 16.66r - 20.833rG

I'm not knocking M70s, but I would urge caution in putting too much faith in the perceived safety features like the none triangulated roll over hoop, 'strong' chassis etc 

I can understand where you are coming from @Jikovron, I wonder how a Model 70 compares in a crash to (say) a Mini or a bubble car like a BMW Isetta

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, ETCHY said:

I think the way to judge most older pre '90s cars is basically lethal and drive accordingly.

 

26 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

I'm not knocking M70s, but I would urge caution in putting too much faith in the perceived safety features like the none triangulated roll over hoop, 'strong' chassis etc 

indeed very much so, by no means am I trying to say they are a safe car compared to todays standards etc

 

but I did want to mention that the Model 70 did actually have some safety considerations built into it and was tested and such, sometimes more so then a lot of cars of the time (most cars back then had 0 from of rollover protection for example)

because a lot of people will figuratively bash the Model 70 saying they are utterly lethal death traps etc, while they are happy to go round driving in a Classic Mini or Relient robin or such like

to which the Model 70 is certainly not any worse than those cars from what i have seen

so I did want to "defend" it in that regard if that makes sense

[LightBulbFun]

23 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

Are you still planning LBF to write a book about Invacars ?

 

well, Im not personally writing a book currently myself, but as I think mentioned before I am pleased to say I have helped Stuart out a lot with his own book, to which I believe it is ready, baring the odd thing here and there I might dig up, I do believe it is ready to be printed

but its now in the hands of the ICR, and things sadly go like molasses over there, so  when it will actually make it to print I do not know sadly 

and I think theres a issue from what I have been told, it costs a lot of money to publish a book, so thats probably not helping things, but that side of things is not something I have personally looked into (yet) so I dont know how true or false that is etc

 

one thing that slightly set alarm bells ringing a bit was when talking to Simon about it a while ago, he said he wanted a coffee table book, but this is very much NOT a coffee table book, its a big formatted collective brain dump of over 20 years worth of research and knowledge 

I would call Stuarts small book "an introduction to the british invalid carriage" a coffee table book maybe, but his big book is very much not so

so I hope Simon realises this!

[Jikovron]

Realistically yeah they compare to those vehicles as relatively equal contenders

you dont have to defend them by any measure really just purely enjoy them as you already do, anyone painting them homogenously as shit are likely to be doing it to troll your interest to which end is a lacklustre activity

My thoughts in essence are that they are vehicles that have limitations however I would defo have a go on one as the funky trike aspect is clear to see.

[ETCHY]

1 hour ago, Jikovron said:

Realistically yeah they compare to those vehicles as relatively equal contenders

you dont have to defend them by any measure really just purely enjoy them as you already do, anyone painting them homogenously as shit are likely to be doing it to troll your interest to which end is a lacklustre activity

My thoughts in essence are that they are vehicles that have limitations however I would defo have a go on one as the funky trike aspect is clear to see.

I quite agree. I've no time for anyone who bad mouths another persons interests it's a sad way to be. As somebody who's always tended to favour the non run of the mill, how narrow minded people can be is quite bizarre.

Nothing wrong with Invacars IMHO. I also admire them for what they achieved (mobilizing the Disabled). a feat they achieved rather well.

Personally if there was Lamborghini & an Invacar parked side by side i'd be more interested in the Invacar