invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

had another driving lesson today (number 41 for those keeping track/count)

went alright, but have decided that ill move the lessons to 2-4PMish rather then 1-3PMish as I had it before, so I can try and get some more sleep (because due to my bad back I rarely sleep well these days sadly)

we focused on manoeuvres today and actually managed to pull off a parallel park without making a complete dogs breakfast of it! but lets see if I can do the same next lesson LOL (which is scheduled for Friday)

 

and speaking of driving looks like Brian (owner of MPH759P) is having fun in his! 

if you click on the link you will see he had to back off due to pinking and apparently the rear engine cover trying to make a bid for freedom!

https://www.facebook.com/brian.palmer1/videos/10217328936803788/

as per the comment I left its interesting to see that he is suffering from pinking issues, with a compression ratio of 6.7:1 and timing thats generally somewhat retarded I would not expect pinking!

but who knows whats been done to it since it came out of Ministry Service in 1997! (I just hope the dizzy aint seized ...)

[Mrs6C]

11 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

if anyone has any ideas regarding how I might go about getting the brakes on REV sorted please do let me know!

Rather like everything else that needs to be recommissioned on REV, it's a matter of working through all the different systems and their components in a methodical way, to assess their condition and operation.

For the brakes, this would include but not be limited to cleaning up everything to remove any accumulated grime, grease and rust; lubricating all the bits that need it; checking the pipes and unions for leaks and corrosion/perished rubber and replacing any that need it; setting up the shoes and adjusters correctly; bleeding the brakes through to replace the now rather elderly fluid in there with new and making sure that everything is adjusted in line with the service manual. Doing all that should see the system working as intended.

None of it is difficult and it doesn't need REV jacked up in the same way as was required to change the tyres, but it does need to be done on hardstanding and when there is sufficient time available to go through it all properly. I'm going to be busy for the next several weeks with building our new barn, which is why we have cleared the yard, but when I have finished that, I'll retrieve both Model 70s from the paddock for some TLC.

All the systems need the same approach, to work through them, clean them and check their operation. On the electrical front, working through the wiring loom and cleaning up the connectors, replacing any that need it and refreshing any lost insulation etc. will be a good investment of time. There are a few components like the headlights that will need replacing, but generally I'd expect everything to start functioning properly and reliably, with a good 'end to end' clean. The dashboard switches should clean up as well; they just need taking out of the dashboard very carefully, as plastics get brittle with age. Best not to break them!

The fuel system is another one to do end-to-end. When I took out REV's fuel tank, I gave it a clean on the outside and looked at the inside and found it was perforated in several places. It has done this in the past as well and been repaired with brazing, but the brazed repairs have failed in places. If it were mine, I'd be tempted to clean it up inside and out, use Petropatch or some other external sealant to fill the holes on the outside and slosh-seal the inside and that would be fine. As REV will be living in a London street, where future petrol leaks would not be welcomed, this is probably not an ideal approach for you to use. With that in mind,  @Andyrew has very kindly taken the fuel tank away to have a friend assess it for a proper repair that would work in the longer term. That will give you some choices.

When that or another fuel tank is ready to go back in, that would be the time to change the fuel line for the marine grade one we bought and put in the in-line filter.

Thinking out loud, something useful that you could start to do now is to identify and research garages and 'old school' mechanics in your locality to find one or two that would be willing and able to look after REV for you when you do get her down to London. As you won't be able to do much on the roadside, finding someone who is capable of looking after REV and happy to do so, also who is reliable, within your budget and accessible via alternative methods of transport, would be much better to get sorted before you take REV home.

I managed to get the new handbrake return spring onto Dolly yesterday evening. It isn't exactly the right shape at one end but it will do for now. The handbrake now springs back to the 'off' position in a more positive way when the handbrake release lever is applied. That and the new tyres are about as far as I managed to get, but both were good progress, nonetheless.

[LightBulbFun]

19 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

For the brakes, this would include but not be limited to cleaning up everything to remove any accumulated grime, grease and rust; lubricating all the bits that need it; checking the pipes and unions for leaks and corrosion/perished rubber and replacing any that need it; setting up the shoes and adjusters correctly; bleeding the brakes through to replace the now rather elderly fluid in there with new and making sure that everything is adjusted in line with the service manual. Doing all that should see the system working as intended.

None of it is difficult and it doesn't need REV jacked up in the same way as was required to change the tyres, but it does need to be done on hardstanding and when there is sufficient time available to go through it all properly. I'm going to be busy for the next several weeks with building our new barn, which is why we have cleared the yard, but when I have finished that, I'll retrieve both Model 70s from the paddock for some TLC.

ah that sounds pretty awesome  (I hope I haven not accidentally spoiled some grand reveal on the new barn or something! LOL)

and yeah good point on the brakes in that yeah you only have get one wheel off the ground at a time you can leave the rest alone while you sort out that wheel's brakes, so that does make things a bit easier

19 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

The fuel system is another one to do end-to-end. When I took out REV's fuel tank, I gave it a clean on the outside and looked at the inside and found it was perforated in several places. It has done this in the past as well and been repaired with brazing, but the brazed repairs have failed in places. If it were mine, I'd be tempted to clean it up inside and out, use Petropatch or some other external sealant to fill the holes on the outside and slosh-seal the inside and that would be fine. As REV will be living in a London street, where future petrol leaks would not be welcomed, this is probably not an ideal approach for you to use. With that in mind,  @Andyrew has very kindly taken the fuel tank away to have a friend assess it for a proper repair that would work in the longer term. That will give you some choices.

When that or another fuel tank is ready to go back in, that would be the time to change the fuel line for the marine grade one we bought and put in the in-line filter.

ah interesting I had been wondering what the status of the fuel tank was  thank you @Andyrew for taking REV's fuel tank to be assessed  its very much appreciated  

19 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Thinking out loud, something useful that you could start to do now is to identify and research garages and 'old school' mechanics in your locality to find one or two that would be willing and able to look after REV for you when you do get her down to London. As you won't be able to do much on the roadside, finding someone who is capable of looking after REV and happy to do so, also who is reliable, within your budget and accessible via alternative methods of transport, would be much better to get sorted before you take REV home. 

indeed thats something I have mentioned myself a few times, I really need to get round to doing! honestly just need to get over my social anxiety and finally get talking to my neighbour with the SD1  (and all the other classic car owners dotted around here)

 (its a shame the MOT checker does not give garage locations anymore!)

im sure there must be an old car friendly garage or 2 around here, because there is a surprising amount of 1950s-1980's cars that live in the area parked in the street/road

19 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

All the systems need the same approach, to work through them, clean them and check their operation. On the electrical front, working through the wiring loom and cleaning up the connectors, replacing any that need it and refreshing any lost insulation etc. will be a good investment of time. There are a few components like the headlights that will need replacing, but generally I'd expect everything to start functioning properly and reliably, with a good 'end to end' clean. The dashboard switches should clean up as well; they just need taking out of the dashboard very carefully, as plastics get brittle with age. Best not to break them!

yeah, the electrical side of things are not something im too worried about, as you know I have a general interest in all things electrical and have spent a lot of time messing with and researching electricity  

so im pretty confident In my own ability to sort/look after REV's electrical system when/if that need arises  although any shitter help on that (or any) front is always very much appreciated of course!

19 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

I managed to get the new handbrake return spring onto Dolly yesterday evening. It isn't exactly the right shape at one end but it will do for now. The handbrake now springs back to the 'off' position in a more positive way when the handbrake release lever is applied. That and the new tyres are about as far as I managed to get, but both were good progress, nonetheless.

ah awesome to hear you where able to get some work done dolly every little counts as they say  

 

thanks for the input so to speak its very much appreciate  

[Eyersey1234]

Probably a daft question but is REV ULEZ compliant? Only wondering as I know the zone has changed which means we can't take our older coaches into London any more 

[plasticvandan]

I believe historic vehicles are exempt,hence why so many old cars and bikes in londinium

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Probably a daft question but is REV ULEZ compliant? Only wondering as I know the zone has changed which means we can't take our older coaches into London any more 

 

2 hours ago, plasticvandan said:

I believe historic vehicles are exempt,hence why so many old cars and bikes in londinium

REV aint ULEZ compliant but she is indeed exempt (all Electric invalid vehicles would be ULEZ compliant tho  )

 

under the Historic taxation class she is exempt from ULEZ, but not the congestion charge (I dont think?)

under the Disabled taxation class she is Exempt from the congestion charge but not ULEZ after 2025

so its a pick your poison kinda thing! I think theoretically I could specifically register her as a historic vehicle with TfL while keeping her in the disabled taxation class (or register her as a disabled vehicle with TfL while keeping her in the historic vehicle taxation class?) but thats a whole other ball game LOL

 

then theres stuff like the Dart charge where I have no idea!

 

some bright* spark at the DVLA means Classic Invalid vehicles and modern day mobility scooters share the same Body type of Invalid vehicle, so lord knows what various ANPR systems make of them!

 

for now I have REV in the historic taxation class  

[LightBulbFun]

heres a nice shot of an AC Acedes Model 67 thats been recently uploaded to flicker 

https://flic.kr/p/2jjoRQD

sadly it seems like the poster has blurred out the number plate on purpose for some reason

[bobdisk]

Go here to find if your vehicle is free in the ULEZ and the LEZ.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle-35896

It shows REV has to pay ? .

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

Go here to find if your vehicle is free in the ULEZ and the LEZ.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle-35896

It shows REV has to pay ? .

yeah the checker is not very reliable/accurate 

my favourite is to take a "not taxed for on road use", Electric invalid vehicle and shove it in there, where apon despite being electric and all that good stuff, it says it must pay a daily charge of £100 LOL

[LightBulbFun]

so this is quite interesting I was reading through the first few pages of @Zelandeth's thread again and once more came across this picture of KPL139P's underside

which is interesting about it, is its good bit higher rez/more detailed then my normal go to picture of a Model 70 underside (which is a picture of MPD553P (VAV1L) on its side)

and so I was comparing it to the picture I came across later of a chassis being constructed at Invacar Ltd and I can definitely say for sure comparing it to Zels picture that this indeed a Model 70 chassis (those may recall when I first shared this picture while I was pretty sure it was of a Model 70 chassis I did have a couple doubts about it)

but its interesting to note that Both KPL and MPD's chassis have 2  chassis members going across the floor/mid section sections, where as the Invacar chassis under construction, only shows 1 member mounted centrally in the same mid section

however its worth noting both MPD and KPL are Model 70 Mark B's but I dont know what revision of Model 70 is under construction in the Invacar factory picture

so I wonder if the chassis member thing is  a Model 70 Mark A vs Model 70 Mark B change, or if AC and Invacar Model 70  have different chassis! 

will have to get a good look at REV's (or another Invacar Model 70 Mark B ) chassis at some point or an AC Model 70 Mark A's chassis like TPA's and see whats what exactly  

 

[Mr Pastry]

That looks like a massive and complicated chassis compared with say a Reliant. which is larger and carries a lot more weight.  Admittedly the rear engine/IRS is a factor, even so it seems a bit OTT.  

[LightBulbFun]

9 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

That looks like a massive and complicated chassis compared with say a Reliant. which is larger and carries a lot more weight.  Admittedly the rear engine/IRS is a factor, even so it seems a bit OTT.  

yeah thats the fun of the Model 70, sadly a lot of people just write the Model 70 off because of what it is if that makes sense, without realising the Model 70 is a completely different and much better beast compared to anything  that came before it  

it really is a miniature Q Car almost!

for completeness sake heres a frontal view of a Model 70 chassis  

[Zelandeth]

Two central chassis rails present on TPA as well.

Not a great photo but the only one I can find of the underside.  Reminds me that I really need to clean under there sometime...

I'll try to get you a better photo at some point as I know pinpointing every revision A/B difference is a hobby.  You really should put some of this information into a spreadsheet sometime.

I'm pretty sure those longitudinal inverted U shaped rails are purely there to hold the floor panel in place.  I wonder if that's a prototype/pre production car shown on the assembly line and they decided additional bracing was required to stop the floor flexing so much?

I note when the ally floor pan was retrofitted to TPA they did a horrible lazy job of it...there are gaps between the panel and will kick plates you can see the road through and it's not fastened down in the middle anywhere...sure that's a contributing factor to my noise levels.  Only reason I've not set about sorting that is the floor mats are glued down so I don't want to start pulling them up until I have replacement material on hand.

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Two central chassis rails present on TPA as well.

Not a great photo but the only one I can find of the underside.  Reminds me that I really need to clean under there sometime...

I'll try to get you a better photo at some point as I know pinpointing every revision A/B difference is a hobby.  You really should put some of this information into a spreadsheet sometime.

I'm pretty sure those longitudinal inverted U shaped rails are purely there to hold the floor panel in place.  I wonder if that's a prototype/pre production car shown on the assembly line and they decided additional bracing was required to stop the floor flexing so much?

very interesting to see the AC Model 70 Mark A also has the 2 central chassis rails too

ill have to ask around if theres any known date for the photo, but I dont think its a pre production car, from what I have seen Invacar was almost completely shuttered out of initial Model 70 development (although on a side note a lot of the Mark B changes are attributed to Invacar on the blue prints, so they got their "revenge" in the end so to speak!)

so AFAIK Invacar never made any Prototype/Pre production Model 70's from what I have seen it was a literally a case of making Invacar Mk12's one week and Model 70's the next, but they obviously would have had to have setup the production line for the Model 70 before hand and figured out how to build em first! so I do wonder if one or 2 where made as a test? (but they would of been to production specifications...)

(im pretty positive PPU501K-PPU520K is the last of the Mk12's with PPU521K-PPU600K being the first Model 70's, for sure from its chassis number PPU522K is Invacar Model 70 number 2, when I finally do visit the essex archive office it will be interesting to see for sure what PPU501K-PPU520K really is)

 

really am curious what the underside/chassis of an Invacar Model 70 looks like now!

 

25 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I note when the ally floor pan was retrofitted to TPA they did a horrible lazy job of it...there are gaps between the panel and will kick plates you can see the road through and it's not fastened down in the middle anywhere...sure that's a contributing factor to my noise levels.  Only reason I've not set about sorting that is the floor mats are glued down so I don't want to start pulling them up until I have replacement material on hand.

I think Woolies trim do the correct floor matting for the Model 70 still IIRC (I know @egg was told by the owner of the Mk12 JBY503J (Ex LVX250J) about it and the Model 70 and Mk12 share the same pattern rubber matting IIRC)

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFun Just been looking at the Model 70 survivors list, I was at the Lakeland Motor Museum about 4 years ago and I'm sure I've got a photo of the one that's there. I'll have a look later after work, would you be interested in a copy if I do? 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFun Just been looking at the Model 70 survivors list, I was at the Lakeland Motor Museum about 4 years ago and I'm sure I've got a photo of the one that's there. I'll have a look later after work, would you be interested in a copy if I do? 

yes please that would be very handy!

you didn't happen to grab a picture of the chassis number stamped into the actual chassis did you? LOL

thanks to sadly now gone photos from @dollywobbler I do know it has an AC Chassis/VIN plate and registration number (that match each other) etc but I do see it is wearing an Invacar badge, so I have to wonder is its a victim of approved repair shenanigans of someone swapping plates around, or if someone just stuck an Invacar badge on genuinely RPF19R

(its worth noting that all know surviving Steering wheel control Model 70's are AC's...)

[Eyersey1234]

No problem, I'll look later to see what photos I have of it. 

[Eyersey1234]

I'm sorry it doesn't look like I do have a photo, it must have been these blue Peels I was thinking of 

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I'm sorry it doesn't look like I do have a photo, it must have been these blue Peels I was thinking of 

aww thats a shame its alright tho, its neat to see the Peels 

reminds me someone here did share a picture of RPF19R's underside a couple years ago must dig it back up and see if I can make out what colour its chassis was painted that will tell me if it has an AC or Invacar chassis

(on that note I checked the chassis drawing for the alignment checks in the service manual and it too shows 2 chassis members...)

[neil1971]

Screenshot from a programme about Wimbledon, this bit is 1977

[LightBulbFun]

50 minutes ago, neil1971 said:

Screenshot from a programme about Wimbledon, this bit is 1977

Nice spot I appreciate the post not one I have seen before   looks like its KPC457P

[neil1971]

4 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Nice spot I appreciate the post not one I have seen before   looks like its KPC457P

I was hoping you could make out the reg, it was only on screen momentarily and that was the clearest screenshot I could get, thought it was ...457P but was struggling with the first bit

[Eyersey1234]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

aww thats a shame its alright tho, its neat to see the Peels 

reminds me someone here did share a picture of RPF19R's underside a couple years ago must dig it back up and see if I can make out what colour its chassis was painted that will tell me if it has an AC or Invacar chassis

(on that note I checked the chassis drawing for the alignment checks in the service manual and it too shows 2 chassis members...)

I didn't know the chassis were painted different colours was there a reason? 

[LightBulbFun]

17 minutes ago, neil1971 said:

I was hoping you could make out the reg, it was only on screen momentarily and that was the clearest screenshot I could get, thought it was ...457P but was struggling with the first bit

yeah truth be told I cant 100% make out what the first 3 letters are but of all the P Reg DHSS AC Model 70's/Blocks only the KPC391P-KPC590P block covers/goes through "457P" so thats how i know the rest  

15 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I didn't know the chassis were painted different colours was there a reason? 

indeed AC Model 70's had a chassis painted a darker blue colour compared to the body work, where as Invacar Model 70's had their chassis painted the same colour (or near to it) as the body work

(I dont know if there was a reason why/if it was intentionally or it was just what they had on hand at their respective factories)

AC Model 70 (UPF516M)

 

Invacar Model 70 (WOO871S)

 

as a side note for @Zelandeth its interesting to note that both these late service Model 70's have the same white plastic rectangle tied to the steering shaft like TPA did, I still wonder what it was for...

I have only seen it on late service cars so far

[Mrs6C]

Excellent for the 'compare and contrast' game!

Note the cutaway 'A' pillar on UPF516M and also the same has an 'official' looking additional side seat extension, whereas Dolly had just a wooden box made of what looks like shuttering plywood, covered with padding and then vinyl, bolted to the floor. I will restore that and reinstall it.

While working on Dolly's handbrake spring, I note that her unusual handbrake arrangement means that none of the three metal 'loops' on the underside of the chassis cross member are used for the handbrake cable, unlike REV and others.

I wonder if the chassis being welded up in that picture is in fact 'work in progress' and not yet finished, such that various chassis members have not yet been placed in the jig. It's a posed shot, so the welders could well have been asked to strike the arcs and 'look busy' for the camera. There are round holes in the cross-members in locations that look like they match up with the dual chassis members mentioned as belonging to other Model 70s.

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Note the cutaway 'A' pillar on UPF516M and also the same has an 'official' looking additional side seat extension, whereas Dolly had just a wooden box made of what looks like shuttering plywood, covered with padding and then vinyl, bolted to the floor. I will restore that and reinstall it.

 

interesting had not noticed the cutaway A piller on UPF, have to wonder if that was done as a modification or when the body work was hacked off

its worth nothing that I THINK the side slide over seat (the common type as seen in UPF) can be tipped up out of the way therefor still allowing the user to still stow a wheel chair if they need to  (see "folding chair strap")

a fun one to note is the Full harness seatbelt  (Just like a professional race car LOL) I believe MHJ22P (which I noticed has been taxed once more recently )  belonging to @st185cs is fitted with such setup, im guessing such a setup would have been for the guy/girl with just 1 arm and no other limbs as otherwise I could see someone like that just sliding out from underneath the normal 3 point seat belt

32 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I wonder if the chassis being welded up in that picture is in fact 'work in progress' and not yet finished, such that various chassis members have not yet been placed in the jig. It's a posed shot, so the welders could well have been asked to strike the arcs and 'look busy' for the camera. There are round holes in the cross-members in locations that look like they match up with the dual chassis members mentioned as belonging to other Model 70s.

yeah I had wondered if they had just not got round to putting the 2nd one in yet, but this singular one is mounted centrally in the chassis rather then offset to allow for the 2nd one

of course perhaps they had placed it there and just where yet to move it into place still!

I dont know if it was a case of put everything in the jig and then go round welding it all up, or if they would put some of it together weld that up and then stick the rest in and weld that up

 

as a side note, its worth mentioning UPF is a Model 70 Mark A and WOO is a Model 70 Mark B

[LightBulbFun]

had another driving lesson (Number 42 heh!)

went pretty well revisited pulling into a parking bay and reversing back out, which I managed to do without much issue  

hit (figuratively!) some heavy traffic on the A11 which was fun, at first the lane I was in was flowing smoothly, but the lane next to me was crawling along so of course a white van man decided to pull out in front of me while I was ambling along at 45-50, thankfully not quite a full emergency stop, but I was pleased with my reaction/reaction time to it LOL and then my lane stopped moving and was stop start all the way to the round about off the A11, coming round a bend to suddenly find all traffic stopped up ahead was also interesting!

but yeah aside from London traffic being London traffic it went pretty well  

still waiting to hear back from the DVSA regarding choosing a slot for my test, but if im reading their email/online post about things correctly I think they will only start to email people around the 22nd

next lesson is Tuesday (he could only do 1:30-3:30 tho so hopefully I do get enough sleep this time!)

[LightBulbFun]

slight correction I was still on the A12 when the above happened! I was not on the A11 just yet (the A11 is a 30Mph just regular London Main road type affair) I was heading off the A12 (and turned right at the roundabout at the end of the A12 slip road to end up on the A11)

(the right 2 lanes being for the A12 where as the free flowing lane I was in was for the A11)

[Mrs6C]

It's great that you have picked up where you left off, so to speak. The more practice you get, the easier and 'second nature' it all becomes. Don't get hung up about the number of lessons. It's not a competition. Many folk have the advantage of being able to practise between lessons, in a car other than the Driving School one, so in effect you are doing the same as them, just in the Driving School car! Why not? It's a sensible thing to do. Getting introduced to typical road situations and hazards with an experienced driver alongside you is also a good way to go. You'll have the benefit of that extra knowledge and understanding to hand when you go solo. All good stuff.

 

[LightBulbFun]

46 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

It's great that you have picked up where you left off, so to speak. The more practice you get, the easier and 'second nature' it all becomes. Don't get hung up about the number of lessons. It's not a competition. Many folk have the advantage of being able to practise between lessons, in a car other than the Driving School one, so in effect you are doing the same as them, just in the Driving School car! Why not? It's a sensible thing to do. Getting introduced to typical road situations and hazards with an experienced driver alongside you is also a good way to go. You'll have the benefit of that extra knowledge and understanding to hand when you go solo. All good stuff.

thanks  

yeah I do have to remind myself that the whole situation is a bit different then how its normally done so to speak, and that im doing this in near central London on top of everything else!

 

I do still wish I could go for a drive with a fellow shitter or such and see what they think of my driving just a quick external review so to speak, and also to get a chance to drive something else!

(im especially curious to see how my clutch control is when in something not so modern!)