invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, RayMK said:

In the period 1970-2005 approx., I attended several microcar rallies in whatever car I had at the time - i.e. as a visitor, not an exhibitor. I have looked through my photos and can't see or recall any Invacars being present, only an AC Petite, my only sighting of such a beast. Invacars and other invalid carriages were much more common on the roads back then of course, but their owners may have had difficulty getting around at the ad-hoc sites/fields used for microcar rallies and probably stayed away.  In my early years I can remember the hand propelled (levers or cranks) invalid carriages which were used mainly on pavements, a market now completely dominated by electric mobility scooters.  

the other issue back then was Invacars where shunned from Microcar groups etc a lot of people did not consider them microcars, and a lot users probably would of probably not thought much about their invacars, as you say they where much more common back then and considred a regular car that no one gave 2 thoughts to sadly

of course now they have become scarce and valuable etc, they suddenly are classed as microcars etc!

Hand propelled invalid carriages where actually issued right up until the end in 1978 alongside the last Model 70's  especially the Harty Dingwall Model 33J for Juvenile users

32 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

I was asked to add this from a 1977 Autocar.

very interesting!, funnily enough one of the brief things talked about with stuart yesterday, was back in the day when he was relatively new to the scene, they where not sure if Model 70's needed MOT's or not!

it also worth noting if you look at the V112 MOT exemption thingy, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/737342/v112-declaration-of-exemption-from-mot.pdf 

that one of the categories is category E "Invalid carriages weighing no more than 306kg when unloaded." which is very interesting because on the V5 of an Invacar Mk12E I have seen its revenue weight is down as 305Kg! wonder they specficly kept it under 306Kg to keep it MOT exempt

(of course all Model 70 weigh 406-413Kg so do need MOT's! unless MOT exempt via the historic vehicle taxation class)

[Jikovron]

21 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

(of course all Model 70 weigh 406-413Kg so do need MOT's! unless MOT exempt via the historic vehicle taxation class)

Mot exemption by age, not tax class which is an entirely separate entity oddly.

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

Mot exemption by age, not tax class which is an entirely separate entity oddly.

yeah good point! reading the V112 says nothing about having to change the tax class to be MOT exempt, it just says the vehicle has to be over 40 years old 

 

speaking of I have been wondering on the V62 I did for my Model 64 I put the tax class directly down as Historic vehicle as a test to see if you can directly change it that way, to avoid having to then immediately send it back via the post office etc

and im curious they took the money so it must be progressing well, but it doesn't yet show up on the DVLA checker, but when it hopefully does it will be interesting to see what its tax due date is, because generally to change the taxation class of a vehicle you have to tax it first!

(I know @Six-cylinder's post office at first sent off Dolly's V5 when he was changing the taxation class, without taxing it and the DVLA just sent it right back)

or im wondering if ill get the V5 back with the tax class still as disabled and them just including a guide also on how to change the tax class LOL

guess we will see when the V5 arrives!

[Jikovron]

Fingers crossed, then all you need is the front suspension and steering then it's got enough parts for its 8 identity points ,anything after that could be put together out of anything cheap and available like 125 bike engines, steel conduit, sheet ally if the desire took hold

[Ghosty]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:49 AM, LightBulbFun said:

interesting that they do/can skip over things, (im still wondering where they plan to do the emergency stop! LOL)

If I remember correctly from my test in 2013, not all test routes have emergency stops on them, as suitable locations tend to be uncommon and can't be worked into all the test routes. 

When there is an emergency stop on the test route, the tester will only proceed at the location if it's safe to do so, ie there's nobody behind you etc. I'm not sure if they can tell you they're going to do one then call it off.

I passed my test on the second attempt and didn't have to do the emergency stop in either attempt. (I also had the exact same parallel park manoeuvre in the same place on both tests, which was a blessing!)
 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Jikovron said:

Fingers crossed, then all you need is the front suspension and steering then it's got enough parts for its 8 identity points ,anything after that could be put together out of anything cheap and available like 125 bike engines, steel conduit, sheet ally if the desire took hold

its a Model 64 they are electric with a 1.5HP 72V electric motor , what you described is a Model 57

2 hours ago, Ghosty said:

If I remember correctly from my test in 2013, not all test routes have emergency stops on them, as suitable locations tend to be uncommon and can't be worked into all the test routes. 

When there is an emergency stop on the test route, the tester will only proceed at the location if it's safe to do so, ie there's nobody behind you etc. I'm not sure if they can tell you they're going to do one then call it off.

I passed my test on the second attempt and didn't have to do the emergency stop in either attempt. (I also had the exact same parallel park manoeuvre in the same place on both tests, which was a blessing!)

interesting  I figured it would be something like that

 

speaking of which had my 33rd lesson today, I had the fun of it was raining pretty hard throughout the entire lesson today

I have driven in the rain before, but it usually cleared up pretty quickly etc, so this was a different experience!

I think my main take away from it is, man do your side mirrors become useless! im surprised @dollywobbler has not invented little wipers for them or something LOL

otherwise it went pretty well, a little bit scruffier the perhaps last time, but im going to blame that on the rain LOL (cant have gone too badly as my instructor mentioned something about doing a mock test at some point, not entirely sure what that involves, but I dont think he would have thought about putting me through one if he thought I wasn't getting there so to speak!)

next lesson is on tuesday  

[Mrs6C]

Rain... slow down, keep a greater distance between your car and the one in front, use your dipped lights, front and rear wipers, demister on the windscreen and to the side windows, avoid splashing pedestrians as much as possible and watch out for pedestrians stepping out into the road at random because they are hidden behind brollies and can't see where they are going!

[Mr Pastry]

4 hours ago, Jikovron said:

Fingers crossed, then all you need is the front suspension and steering then it's got enough parts for its 8 identity points ,anything after that could be put together out of anything cheap and available like 125 bike engines, steel conduit, sheet ally if the desire took hold

I wonder if anybody at DVLA follows this thread?

[loserone]

I could ask? There's a DVLA channel in the cross government slack.

[Mr Pastry]

28 minutes ago, loserone said:

I could ask? There's a DVLA channel in the cross government slack.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is a special unit that keeps an eye on obscure and potentially subversive motoring forums.  It's the sort of thing they would do well.

[Zelandeth]

The lacklustre response to these FoI requests staggers me...

Some of you know that prior to being relegated to a full time househusband by circumstances (and more recently mental health issues not helping) I spent eight years working for a local authority up in Scotland, in the Public Transport Unit.

The letters FoI were sufficient to instill a feeling of utter dread.  Not because I in any way begrudged giving out the information they were after, nor did I dispute that it was a matter of public record...however I dreaded an FoI request coming in because of the sheer amount of work they could generate.

There was a very specific timeline we had to adhere to, and we weren't allowed to say "we don't have the resources to look into this" unless it would require something ridiculous like 100 staff hours.  I can't remember exactly what the number was, but it equated to roughly a whole month of work.

Because of the requirement to respond within a tight timeframe I basically had to drop whatever I was doing when one came in and jump to it...

One gent decided to ask us to break down year on year the level of bus service between each of the main areas of the city and the city centre year on year...from 1975 to the present day.  Now we did have this data...we had every bus service registration document dating back to I think it was the late 60s...however it was just in the form of (in some cases incomplete) timetables etc...not really in any digestible format.  We couldn't say "sorry, we can't answer that..."

It took me nearly three weeks to break that all down into basic "X journeys per day, n during the peak period, first and last buses, summarising which connections had been made and lost etc" document.  Plenty of them came in which ate many hours of my time, that one in particular sticks in my mind though.

So seeing these responses which equate to "we can't be bothered to dig through the archives" kinda puts my back up!

[LightBulbFun]

that has kicked me into gear and get something written up for my own FOI to the DVLA about the whole not taxed for on road use stuff!

so does anyone have any thoughts or objections on this before I fire it off to the DVLA?  (note that I have requested info on how many vehicles the DVLA have showing as not taxed for on road use, that way this is a FOI request, no matter how you cut it!)

Quote

Dear Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency,

im writing to you to request information on the vehicle status 

"Not taxed for on road use"

that appears on the DVLA's vehicle enquiry service website vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk 

I would like to know/have it explained if possible, 

exactly what the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" means,

how a vehicle acquires the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use"

when the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" was first introduced

and finally I would like to know how many vehicles the DVLA current have recorded as "not taxed for on road use" 

please use vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk, to see the vehicle status of the vehicle bearing the registration number NNO803M as an example of a vehicle that shows the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" 

Yours faithfully,

Dez

 

[keef]

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

The lacklustre response to these FoI requests staggers me...

--- snip ----

So seeing these responses which equate to "we can't be bothered to dig through the archives" kinda puts my back up!

It's not me then? I was beginning to think I just wasn't being clear enough!

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, keef said:

It's not me then? I was beginning to think I just wasn't being clear enough!

although your FOI was clear enough to me  I can see how it may have been confusing to someone who doesn't quite know things, on the DVLA end which sadly seems to be what happened with your FOI request

if theres one thing I learnt with these people is you really have to watch how word things etc!

[keef]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

so does anyone have any thoughts or objections on this before I fire it off to the DVLA?  (note that I have requested info on how many vehicles the DVLA have showing as not taxed for on road use, that way this is a FOI request, no matter how you cut it!)

I am sure they will mis-read or just fail to understand even this.

Well done for trying anyway.

Are we taking bets on how they "backout" of this one?

[keef]

3 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

I wonder if anybody at DVLA follows this thread?

They can't even follow simple requests, so I don't see how they would.

Unless of course they contract it out.

[LightBulbFun]

10 minutes ago, keef said:

I am sure they will mis-read or just fail to understand even this.

Well done for trying anyway.

Are we taking bets on how they "backout" of this one?

Yeah thats the reason im asking about how many vehicles are down as not taxed for on road use, cuz they cant back out of that!

if all else fails at least we should get a fun numbers to mull over LOL

I have also tweaked it just now to include a second data point, asking when the status was introduced, so that 2 bits of data im asking for (and also cuz I am genuinely curious!) that indisputably very much fall under the category of a FOI request no matter how ya cut it

(have edited the original post on this accordingly as well)

Quote

Dear Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency,

im writing to you to request information on the vehicle status 

"Not taxed for on road use"

that appears on the DVLA's vehicle enquiry service website vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk 

I would like to know/have it explained if possible, 

exactly what the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" means,

how a vehicle acquires the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use"

when the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" was first introduced

and finally I would like to know how many vehicles the DVLA current have recorded as "not taxed for on road use" 

please use vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk, to see the vehicle status of the vehicle bearing the registration number NNO803M as an example of a vehicle that shows the vehicle status of "not taxed for on road use" 

Yours faithfully,

Dez

 

[Mrs6C]

^^^ That's a fair and reasonable enquiry. I will be interested to see what comes back.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

^^^ That's a fair and reasonable enquiry. I will be interested to see what comes back.

ah thats good to hear I think ill send it off shortly  

 

speaking of sending things off, I got a DVLA letter in the post, sadly not one containing a V5, but them saying they dont have any record for the reg number RPE405E,  of the Model 64 and that please confirm that I have quoted the correct registration number if so, so they can refund my £25 fee

 

 

so looks like they will cash the cheque then tell you sorry cant help you! of all the things that disappoints me most as it was a false positive and actually got my hopes up LOL (but at least I can get it refunded)

its a shame they dont have any info on it supposedly, so the V62 is not invincible so to speak thats always good to know, goes back to, just how long has this been a trailer for! if it became one in 1970 or something then yeah the DVLA wont have any info on it

I do wonder if I should try calling the DVLA just for giggles to see if the guy on the other end the phone says something different? 

ah well was still fun to try  

and it will still be interesting to see what happens with other vehicles in time, clearly it does no harm to send off a V62 even when the vehicle does not show up on the DVLA checker I still have both my knee caps etc!

its just pot luck whether or not the DVLA has info on it or not! 

but before anyone with a vehicle that does not show up on the DVLA get disappointed

do keep in mind that as researched earlier in this thread it seems like vehicles registered with the DVLA but where tax due 1980 or before where archived by the DVLA at some point in time that removed them from the public tools

that leaves a window between October 1974-1980 for vehicles that may the DVLA may have info on but don't currently show up,

so if you have a vehicle that does not show up, but know was active through those dates then the DVLA may have info on it, (again I dont know how long my Model 64 has been a trailer for!)

as a side note I have also been wonder about vehicles that I know would have been registered with the DVLA from new but dont show up on the DVLA like XEV76S or XEV93S im curious as to why they dont show up!

sadly no such invalid vehicles  like that are known to survive so I cant currently find out what would happen if you V62ed one! 

[LightBulbFun]

rather surprisingly the letter also included means to contact them by email

so have sent them an email asking about the refund!

hopefully they can just bank transfer it back over or something

now its another waiting game LOL

 

they also included in the letter a guide on filling out a V55/5 and a V55/5 itself that made me chuckle, but im not going to bother with that

 

it is interesting how they note that only vehicles made prior to 1963 get non transferable plates, I always thought when you register a used vehicle (like an import) for the first time with the DVLA and it gets an age related plate, that the plate is always non transferable from the get go

@catsinthewelder im curious what does the V5 for the mighty Dacia say regarding its number plate? (if its non transferable there will be a note in the special notes section about it)

[keef]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

 just pot luck whether or not the DVLA has info on it or not! 

It just shows how inconsistent DVLA are..

There are plenty of vehicles on their system that have long since been scrapped and I would think there are plenty not on the system that haven't. I'm not sure if anyone ever notified the county offices if vehicles were scrapped and if so, how? Presumably buff or green logbooks were rubber stamped then archived. As to if these archives were ever computerised or even kept after records were centralised .......... It may depend on the county. In the case of KRW794 the records were destroyed in a fire, so obviously the only records were from that date on, if the vehicle was taxed.

[LightBulbFun]

17 minutes ago, keef said:

It just shows how inconsistent DVLA are..

There are plenty of vehicles on their system that have long since been scrapped and I would think there are plenty not on the system that haven't. I'm not sure if anyone ever notified the county offices if vehicles were scrapped and if so, how? Presumably buff or green logbooks were rubber stamped then archived. As to if these archives were ever computerised or even kept after records were centralised .......... It may depend on the county. In the case of KRW794 the records were destroyed in a fire, so obviously the only records were from that date on, if the vehicle was taxed.

vehicles only disappear from the DVLA checker when scrapped if they have been issued a CoD (and even then there only hidden not gone)

before the CoD was a thing, if you scrapped a vehicle there would simply be a check box on the V5 you would fill out and then you would send the V5 to the DVLA where the vehicle would gain a scrap marker but the vehicle would/does still appear on the DVLA checker

most (but not all) Model 70's and other invalid vehicles have scrapped markers, Dolly TWC and TPA probably did, but since those where V62ed and clearly still alive I assume the DVLA removed their scrap markers (sadly I did not have access to the tool I use now back when those Model 70's where being "processed" so I cant say for sure if they did have scrapped markers)

but for example according to the DVLA OVW445P was scrapped on the 10th of the 4th 2003, but OVW445P still exists

On 2/23/2019 at 12:15 PM, LightBulbFun said:

OVW445P, Invacar, Date of First registration: 14 July 1976, Current status: with st185cs? otherwise Unknown, Untaxed since 01 March 2004, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued, 5 June 2002

it will be interesting to see when/if @st185cs applies for the logbook for this Model 70 of his, whether or not the scrap marker vanishes  

(I know weirdly VES108S (ex XEV88S) is still displaying a scrapped marker from 1995 LOL)

sadly I dont know how scrapped vehicles where dealt with before the V5 scheme sadly 

 

[egg]

Similar to my first V62 then, although they did have the courtesy to send my uncashed cheque back as well!

Like Zel I used to respond to FoI requests for a section of a long defunct public body - and yep, they were treated very seriously and I always got senior staff to check out responses.

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

Similar to my first V62 then, although they did have the courtesy to send my uncashed cheque back as well!

 

yeah, I do wonder how your first V62 would have gone if ya knew the Registration number from the get go, and sent the V62 without all the registry evidence you got as well.

have a feeling it would have still worked, since I know @strangeangel did so with his scooter and he did not have any council registry office evidence like you did and his V62 went fine  

as mentioned, I think both @strangeangel's scooter and XWC468F fell into that time window of, managing to get registered with the DVLA in the late 1970's but then got archived out of the online system

19 minutes ago, egg said:

Like Zel I used to respond to FoI requests for a section of a long defunct public body - and yep, they were treated very seriously and I always got senior staff to check out responses.

speaking of which I have published mine  

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_on_the_vehicle_statu

probably giving someone at the DVLA a bad case of deja vu LOL 

[keef]

53 minutes ago, egg said:

Similar to my first V62 then, although they did have the courtesy to send my uncashed cheque back as well!

That's what I meant by inconsistent. You would think they would only cash cheques if they find the vehicle record.

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, keef said:

That's what I meant by inconsistent. You would think they would only cash cheques if they find the vehicle record.

amusingly the letter is dated the 26th of February, but the Cheque was cashed on the 27th!

its a bit frustrating as it seems you cant rely on the cheque being cashed as an indication your V62 is going well or not!

(tho at least its a good indication your V62 got the DVLA rather then getting lost!)

[High Jetter]

I'd hazard that when your envelope is opened the cheque goes in one direction and whichever form you send goes to the appropriate department. Probably cheaper than keeping the cheque with the form until a decision is made.

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

I'd hazard that when your envelope is opened the cheque goes in one direction and whichever form you send goes to the appropriate department. Probably cheaper than keeping the cheque with the form until a decision is made.

Yeah I was wondering about that although then one has to wonder why @egg's cheque was not cashed, perhaps someone does a do a reodmentery check of things and noticed the missing registration number before cashing/sending off his cheque

(or maybe they cashed my cheque hoping that I had made a typo somewhere regarding the registration number and that they would be able to process my application!)

 

[keef]

32 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

its a bit frustrating as it seems you cant rely on the cheque being cashed as an indication your V62 is going well or not!

I did try and warn you that this would be the case.  Any idea that DVLA use logic or any common sense is also very dangerous.  

22 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah I was wondering about that although then one has to wonder why @egg's cheque was not cashed, perhaps someone does a do a reodmentery check of things and noticed the missing registration number before cashing/sending off his cheque

Like phoning them up, I think it is more to do with who processes your application, than anything else. The logical thing would be to only cash the cheque if the vehicle is on their records. (see warning above) LOL!

[Floatylight]

Not sure this is going to work as an FOI request as it's more of an request for an explanation rather than data.

So if you were to ask as at this date how many vehicles are registered in the following categories that would be something which is not currently in the public domain but could be released.

What you need is for someone to explain, so it may be worth going down the department for transport route, I wonder if the best way is to go to see your MP and explain and ask them to write to dept of transport..

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