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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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On 8/14/2019 at 3:12 PM, LightBulbFun said:

that is a very valid concern! and something I have been thinking about (especially after driving a couple normal cars again) as yeah I had my left leg spazz out on me (quite literally) when trying to drive the BX, it really is quite frustrating

for that reason (and obviously just to see how good or bad the school/instructor is before lumping down a load of cash) my plan is to book a regular lesson or a few and see how those go, and then work out some sort of plan etc

so learn in an auto- you can always "upgrade" when able to later

 

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35 minutes ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

so learn in an auto- you can always "upgrade" when able to later

 

im hopping as I get more relaxed driving a normal car it will stop happening so often

as right now driving a normal car is still very "nerve wracking" for me which combined with my CP causes my muscles to tense up and spasm more exacerbating issues, like that leg thing, its not all the time, when driving but ill go for the clutch and my leg will play up and its like FFS stop it LOL

(I also think the way the clutch pedal is positioned exacerbates the leg thing as well as I have noticed in general day to day life at certain positions my leg will spassam out more)

although its hard for me to pinpoint what it is exactly in this case, as I have only got a chance to a drive a manual car twice so far

but yeah hopefully as I get more relaxed and used to driving, that it will be less of an issue

I know the invacar is automatic, but I plan to learn in a manual and get a full manual driving licence, I want to make sure i have all the options open to me, and its a good life skill to have etc :) 

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 12:50 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Heh, that's a very tempting offer but unfortunately I've recently acquired something plastic, automatic and two-stroke that hasn't run since the late 90s... gradually gathering the necessary bits to see if it'll run!

The Mk12 does look like an excellent proposition, and that's interesting to learn that a few did in fact make their way over to the Republic of Ireland... solves a few riddles!

I'm sure the car in the ad and the car in Stuart's pic is the same one - there's a triangular scuff on the front wing and another on the rear arch which are identical.

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41 minutes ago, Andyrew said:

Dez

You have any part numbers for service items on these? 

Plugs filters etc etc?

Plugs are Bosch W225 T1 or equivalent 

oil filter is a MANN W712 (unless you have an early Model 70 then its a a MANN H601)

Air filter is a MANN C1427

Oil is just your good ol 20W50 stuff (with the gearbox and diff needing SAE90 gear oil)

and we also got a bunch of service Items in the spare parts bundle :)

(as a side note the new air filter we stuck in dolly came in a plain white box with just the DHSSs ink stamp on it, not seen it like that before, must service items are in branded boxes with maybe a DHSS part number sticker slapped on it somewhere like the one I fitted to REV)

and then there's these chaps https://www.haflingertechnik.com/html/index.php

which could probably supply me with an entire engine if I so needed it :)

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18 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

Heh, that's a very tempting offer but unfortunately I've recently acquired something plastic, automatic and two-stroke that hasn't run since the late 90s... gradually gathering the necessary bits to see if it'll run!

The Mk12 does look like an excellent proposition, and that's interesting to learn that a few did in fact make their way over to the Republic of Ireland... solves a few riddles!

I'm sure the car in the ad and the car in Stuart's pic is the same one - there's a triangular scuff on the front wing and another on the rear arch which are identical.

unless you found 1 of only 6 Harpermatics made it being an automatic and 2 stroke rules out it being an invalid vehicle sadly,

not a sans permis car is it? :mrgreen: 

yeah I am quite curious about it, was it brought over and used in service in the ROI back in the 60s or so, or was it brought over after it entered private ownership I do wonder

its tempting to call the seller just to see if he has any details on the history of it, tho currently waiting to see if anyone here on the forum wants to buy it :)

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12 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

unless you found 1 of only 6 Harpermatics made it being an automatic and 2 stroke rules out it being an invalid vehicle sadly,

not a sans permis car is it? :mrgreen: 

Nope, afraid not - and it has 33% fewer wheels, too...

20190622_174315.thumb.jpg.1b6d3d29f66dbcafaf2c5323c0e0b532.jpg

 

Quote

yeah I am quite curious about it, was it brought over and used in service in the ROI back in the 60s or so, or was it brought over after it entered private ownership I do wonder

its tempting to call the seller just to see if he has any details on the history of it, tho currently waiting to see if anyone here on the forum wants to buy it :)

I'm sure the seller would be happy to chat - after all, he could probably learn more from you than you might from him!

If it is one of the 5 second hand invalid vehicles sent over by the Rotary Club in the 1960s, he may want to add that to his advert...

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So as you do I was lying awake last night thinking about Derry Preston-Cobb and his 600cc Model 70, and it occurred to me that this would probably count as a private example. After all, he ran the company that made the things so it would make far more sense to get one straight from the factory than to go through the DHSS bureaucracy. That train of thought led to a possible explanation for some of the other private cars. If I remember rightly many of Invacar's employees were themselves disabled, and maybe they were able to buy one cheaply through a staff discount scheme (or could even be given one as a reward for loyal service)? Otherwise I still struggle to work out why anybody would buy a Model 70 instead of getting a free one from the government.   

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40 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

So as you do I was lying awake last night thinking about Derry Preston-Cobb and his 600cc Model 70, and it occurred to me that this would probably count as a private example. After all, he ran the company that made the things so it would make far more sense to get one straight from the factory than to go through the DHSS bureaucracy. That train of thought led to a possible explanation for some of the other private cars. If I remember rightly many of Invacar's employees were themselves disabled, and maybe they were able to buy one cheaply through a staff discount scheme (or could even be given one as a reward for loyal service)? Otherwise I still struggle to work out why anybody would buy a Model 70 instead of getting a free one from the government.   

650cc to be pedantic :) AFAIK Steyr puch never made a 600cc version of their engine, the engine sizes went from 493cc right to 643cc/660cc

but yes indeed that's an interesting thought, @Datsuncog also wondered the same :) https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-invacar-model-70-acquired-and-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-phase-2-finding-a-suitable-driving-schoolinstructor-getting-lessons-and-a-licence/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-1743569

 AC also sold private Model 70's too (RRE20L JNJ135L and NPN924P are the 3 known survivors)  so I wonder why those were bought as well

sadly Mrs constance Nina bendall the first owner of REV, is no longer with us so I cant ask her as to why she bought REV...

Ill have to double check with stuart on the disabled workers thing but that could be a thing as you say, I do also wonder if he knows the reg of Derries Model 70 :)

when I made my facebook post on the Microcar world FB group I asked stuart how much a Model 70 cost new back in the day, and he said

"A brand new Model 70 was £1,799 (In actual old money too) ex works in 1977. Compare this with a brand new mini costing about a grand at the same time."

im not sure what he means by Ex works in this case? I know you hear the term a lot with race cars!

 

on a related note Fraser might be getting RRE20L back and I have been trying to convince him to save it/get it going rather then strip it for spares

(its quite frustrating, as he did VES108S up when it did not really need it, but now when he might be getting a Model 70 that needs it and is worth saving, he does not really want to do it :( )

 

(side note on the engine stuff, P5 had both the 400cc industrial engine and then the fiat 500 engine/gearbox with cut down drive shafts, apparently it was lethal on the corners :mrgreen: prototype 6 had a Steyr puch engine and normal length drive shafts with rear wheel arches like a production Model 70, im not sure what gearbox/transmission it had tho)

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19 hours ago, Andyrew said:

If grease guns were not the shitiest tool ever I'd bet more people would do them. 

Most modern ones are anyway.  I was lucky enough to be given an ancient Wanner grease gun a few months ago...and suddenly see very clearly how rubbish its modern counterparts in most motor factors are.

Mine has had all the grease points gone over...all of my vehicles aside from the Xantia have several grease points on them, so it's something that's just part of the regular servicing schedule.

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19 hours ago, Andyrew said:

If grease guns were not the shitiest tool ever I'd bet more people would do them. 

Most modern ones are anyway.  I was lucky enough to be given an ancient Wanner grease gun a few months ago...and suddenly see very clearly how rubbish its modern counterparts in most motor factors are.

Mine has had all the grease points gone over...all of my vehicles aside from the Xantia have several grease points on them, so it's something that's just part of the regular servicing schedule.

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interesting stuff :) I wonder where stuart got the price info and if theres a Model 70 price list like above, that would be very interesting to see!

also Woo Page 70 :mrgreen:

 

I see MHJ22P has been papped on instagram :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1a-7mRHor7/

69481366_164550118014341_6761421086129317800_n.thumb.jpg.5b48ad6c94a5bf5f534618c813caf5a7.jpg

to be pedantic, technically not the first Model 70 to be registered privately, see the private from new examples :) but MHJ22P was the first DHSS Model 70 to be registered to a private owner properly after the mass cull/Invacar scheme ended, without any Q plate funny business etc :)

on that note @st185cs I understand your plan for your NOS Model 70 body is to fit to MHJ22P to freshen her up give her historic importance, but I was thinking would that not sort of detract from above? since it would no longer be the same body that was registered at the time (and esp as MHJ22Ps current body looks to be in pretty decent shape all things considered :) )

I was thinking with me potentially getting my foot in the door at the ICR, that I could do something with the NOS body, actually get moulds taken from it for realsies LOL, before its altered in any sort of way for fitting  to a chassis 

so please keep that in mind before you fit to any car, and maybe hold off doing so if you can :)

(plus I would like to study it in detail and see if I can figure out who made the body and see how its constructed :) )

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I did a little bit of poking around and it turns out in cazana.com

if you stick a car in and pull it up, then do a view page source, you can see the previous owner count in there still :) 

(I read on here that the website used to give that info but stopped at some point, it even works without having to login it seems :) )

No chassis numbers tho sadly

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21 hours ago, quicksilver said:

So as you do I was lying awake last night thinking about Derry Preston-Cobb and his 600cc Model 70, and it occurred to me that this would probably count as a private example. After all, he ran the company that made the things so it would make far more sense to get one straight from the factory than to go through the DHSS bureaucracy. That train of thought led to a possible explanation for some of the other private cars. If I remember rightly many of Invacar's employees were themselves disabled, and maybe they were able to buy one cheaply through a staff discount scheme (or could even be given one as a reward for loyal service)? Otherwise I still struggle to work out why anybody would buy a Model 70 instead of getting a free one from the government.   

managed to get ahold of stuart, and he said there's no evidence that suggests that invacar employed a higher then normal amount of disabled people, so sadly that rules out your theory on that, (although I imagine if there where any disabled workers aside from Derry, then I can see them doing as you say)

and sadly the only known pictures of Derry's Model 70 is from the side so we cant see the reg plate's 

 

but on the note of Model 70's the dash mounted change vs floor mounted is something I have wondered about from time to time, ie was it a change done over time, or just one of the adaptability options for various disabilities

it turns out it was a Mark A to Mark B change, but apparently the Ministry in the late 80s had a drive to convert dash change ones to floor mounted change 

which explains why TWC and TPA have floor mounted changes despite both being Mark As

it would be interesting to see what the hole in the rear bulkhead looks like for TPA or TWC, as they would not of had the hole for the floor mounted gear change originally so someone would of had to drill it out

 

also worth noting that NOO738M managed to retain her dash change :) 

Screenshot 2019-02-15 at 04.08.33.png

 

it would be interesting to see if any other field cars have Dash changes or not @st185cs

 

we think the change to Floor change was to reduce the complexity of gear change mechanism (as on the dash change ones its quite complicated, where as on the floor mounted ones its just a rod that goes through the rear bulkhead into the gear box :) )

 

heres dash change taken to the extreme LOL

670322903_IMG_10731.thumb.JPG.11c787978c1edf46e437246f8c017700.JPG

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I imagine the dash one would simply be a Bowden cable arrangement, so nothing complicated really.

IMG_20180205_141329.thumb.jpg.0dcc63c0c81c3e57e0bf0dca08e888dd.jpg

May well explain why KPL didn't have the dash cutout though if they had essentially removed that option after a certain date...had wondered about why some cars had it and some didn't.

Edited by Zelandeth
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56 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I imagine the dash one would simply be a Bowden cable arrangement, so nothing complicated really.

IMG_20180205_141329.thumb.jpg.0dcc63c0c81c3e57e0bf0dca08e888dd.jpg

May well explain why KPL didn't have the dash cutout though if they had essentially removed that option after a certain date...had wondered about why some cars had it and some didn't.

indeed the hole getting removed was one of the things I noticed that made me think it was a production change at some point :) (as if the dash change was an option then they would not of removed the hole for it)

interesting to note that KPL does not have the extra screws that REV and other later Model 70's have, under the light and on the dash top 

IMG_0500.thumb.JPG.081f5faf9caca03b465fe2fc6ac7299d.JPG

(ignore the 2 screws on the far right I THINK thats wheres REV's "passenger carrying is forbidden" plaque would of gone)

 

BTW (cc @MorrisItalSLX ) on the number plate side of things Stuart said that Model 70's would of left the factory on pressed metal plates with black borders as they where the cheapest option, and AC/Invacar would get them from whoever was cheapest it seems, and the same goes for the change from white text on black to modern black text white background format plates (ie they stayed with white on black plates until the law mandated the change, as the old style where cheaper)

which is not too surprising given the fleet vehicles these where

after they left the factory the garages that looked after them could put whatever they wanted on, the DHSS had no specific policy on plate type or supplier etc

so id say a set of die pressed ally plates from here https://www.tippersvintageplates.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/tippers?opendocument&part=5 would suit TPA nicely :) 

and for @Fumbler he said (in general I think not just on model 70's or anything) that you could get the BS AU 145a mark on plates starting in 1972, he thinks you might be getting confused with the " 1998's BS au 145D which insisted on ALL plates having the BS AU number marked visibly on them"

number plates is one of Stuarts other hobbies :)

 

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Now I've seen the price (£1800 in 1977 is equivalent to about £11,000 today so they weren't cheap by any means) I'm at even more of a loss to see the market for private sales. I can think of only two likely scenarios:

1. Wealthy eccentrics who felt £1800 was a small price to pay to avoid having to deal with government bureaucracy, but I don't know how difficult the application process to get an invalid carriage was (I assume they weren't means-tested and wealth wasn't a factor that influenced eligibility).

2. As in the case of the Webbs, a married disabled couple who had a proper car from the DHSS and wanted an invalid carriage so they could travel separately and didn't have to share the car.

I suspect number 2 was the biggest reason for private sales.

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19 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Now I've seen the price (£1800 in 1977 is equivalent to about £11,000 today so they weren't cheap by any means) I'm at even more of a loss to see the market for private sales. I can think of only two likely scenarios:

1. Wealthy eccentrics who felt £1800 was a small price to pay to avoid having to deal with government bureaucracy, but I don't know how difficult the application process to get an invalid carriage was (I assume they weren't means-tested and wealth wasn't a factor that influenced eligibility).

2. As in the case of the Webbs, a married disabled couple who had a proper car from the DHSS and wanted an invalid carriage so they could travel separately and didn't have to share the car.

I suspect number 2 was the biggest reason for private sales.

given that I estimate there where about 50 private Model 70's made compared to about 19K DHSS cars, they definitely were not popular! the price they cost does go some way of explaining why they were built like the proverbial brick shit house in regards to chassis construction :) and you can see how the invalid vehicle contracts kept invacar and AC afloat! (1800 times by about 19K is 34 million quid and that would be in old money! or 209 million in todays money I think! and thats just for Model 70's alone)

IIRC REVs first owner was married so yeah as you say maybe she bought REV for the same reason Dennis webb bought REV from her :) 

the 3rd reason, I could see private examples existing (as also mentioned in Mrs webb's letter to stuart) was if a private company bought one for their disabled employee(s) (a bit like what you mention in your first post :) )

I do wonder how the application for an invalid vehicle from the DHSS went, I do know that if you were a war pensioner you could become a new user of a Model 70 right up until 1983, (although no one did so after 1978) despite the scheme officially closing in July 1976

which goes some way of explaining why the Model 70's continued in production until 1978 :) (despite the scheme offically closing to new applicants in 1976)

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Another set of differences concerns the nature and location of the parkimg brake. Most seem to have the 'umbrella' type emerging from the dashboard. TWC has hers on the RHS while REV and TPA have theirs on the LHS. Dolly has a floor-mounted handbrake with a huge lever to pull the handbrake on and a separate, smaller lever to let it off again.

Perhaps there were other combinations?

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10 hours ago, CykoUk said:

Loving the story so far can't wait to get pics of her on the road.

Thanks, same! hopefully she will be on the road soonish, none of the work she needs is particularly time consuming etc, well hopefully!  but me and REV are currently not in the same place so that does complicate things

(I know they are starting to introduce motorway driving in driving lessons etc, "Oh can we do lesions on this motorway? "why? "because I need to patch a hole in the fuel tank of my car!" :mrgreen:)

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Another set of differences concerns the nature and location of the parkimg brake. Most seem to have the 'umbrella' type emerging from the dashboard. TWC has hers on the RHS while REV and TPA have theirs on the LHS. Dolly has a floor-mounted handbrake with a huge lever to pull the handbrake on and a separate, smaller lever to let it off again.

Perhaps there were other combinations?

indeed, tho the gear stick change, seems to be a production thing/change like the change from 12 to 10 inch wheels, rather then just different layout for someone's disabilities

(but id not be surprised if one of the reasons they changed to a floor mounted gear change was to make it easier to change gear, if you have difficulty moving your arms etc, i imagine it would be quite hard to reach up to the dash to change gear, its the same reason I think as to why they went from roof mounted heater/choke controls to floor mounted ones)

tho worth noting dolly has dash mounted controls, as they would fowl the slide over box she has fitted otherwise :) 

TJN352R has the same parking brake arrangement but on the other side :) 

image.png

 

image.png

TJN352R and Dolly are the only 2 Model 70's where I have seen this sort of hand brake mechanism 

 

speaking of odd controls I wonder what the floor mounted button on UPF516M is for? I see the windscreen washer plunger is missing from the dash, so I wonder if its for that, foot activated windscreen washer, you can hear @dollywobbler make happy noises from here :mrgreen:

UPF516M.jpeg

(also note the slide over thingy like Dolly has :) )

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Perhaps there were other combinations?

 

im pretty sure I have seen some Model 70's with foot operated parking brakes :) (in fact I think thats why the steering wheel model 70 in BW has 4 foot pedals)

 

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Another possibility for private sales might have been the different attitudes of the time,unlike today with everyone being happy to lease,finance and not actually own a car,back then there was a certain pride in owning something,all paid for,maybe some people wanted to own their car,rather than "leasing" it from the DHSS,or perhaps weren't quite "disabled enough" to be issued with one but drive a regular car,though of course they wouldn't have had their maintainance,tax,insurance and fuel contributions either!

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On 8/18/2019 at 7:41 PM, LightBulbFun said:

16-19 July 1973 for BPU-L I think (with Invacar Model 70's the date of first registrations tend to not be in order of the registrations/chassis numbers themselves)

and NNO-L is 7th september (heh :) to 21st Sept 1973 

however I have been informed of the NEV-M block from NEV201M to NEV300M which fills in the hole, but sadly its not known exactly why they jumped to N from B

(I wonder if it was a regional thing, did the Essex office themselves jump from B to N when moving to the M suffix?)

the NEV-M block is from Aug 1st to sept 5th so clearly the first M reg Invacars cars :)

(Il go through the NEV-M block and see what chassis numbers I can pull soon to confirm it fill the hole)

so yeah I got the hole filled but still not sure why they jumped alphabetically like that!

but im pretty happy I got the hole filled as that was bugging me

(BTW a good example of the date of first registrations being all over the place is NEV201M is Aug 1st but NEV202M is 5th sept LOL meanwhile NEV300M is Aug 21st! and NEV215M is back to Aug 1st again LOL)

I knew I had the answer to this somewhere and looking through my 1973 issues of Buses magazine I finally found it.

The change from local to regional issuing of registrations was planned in advance with January 1974 bring D day.

Prior to that the Department of Environment's Driver and Vehicle Licencing Centre in Swansea (as it was then called) issued, in early 1973, a dictate that all licencing centres issue prefixes starting with "N" for the M (1973 - 1974) registration series as in January 1974 they intended all the new areas to start with the letter "A" for prefixes.

In terms of Essex, the last registration for the 1972 - 1973 series was BVW in July 1973 (BVW---L) which was followed by NEV1M etc in September 1973.

Hopes this helps, and reflective plates were mandatory from 1st January 1973 also.

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