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Invacar Model 70 Acquired! and general ramble thread, index on page 1, Phase 2: finding a suitable driving school/instructor getting lessons and a licence! 7th lesson had! finding all the NI cars

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:41 PM, LightBulbFun said:

I guess this is where @Datsuncog you come into it! I was wondering if you knew anything about how the motability scheme operated over in NI back then? Me and stuart wonder if they were scared by the troubles, so the government had to keep issuing Model 70's?

but its worth noting although registered very late, production defo ended in 1978 as proved by WOI654s chassis plate, so somehow the government knew to stockpile Model 70's or something like that!

Sadly I'm too young to know for sure (and hey, I don't get to say that very often these days), but my take on the NI cars issue is as follows:

  • Northern Ireland has a high degree of autonomy from the rest of the UK, in part because it isn't physically connected. Between 1922 and 1972 it had its own independent Parliament, its own Prime Minister, and so forth. Therefore a number of public services are run in a very similar way to those in GB, but are otherwise wholly independent.
  • As an example, DVLNI ran alongside DVLA until 2014 - very similar systems, but using completely different legislative tools put into law by the relevant NI Department. Some aspects are the same in practice, like SORN and V5 forms, but others were, and often remain, totally different - such as the R Plate system for new drivers, and the use of government run testing centres for MOTs (and MOTs weren't introduced in NI until the 1970s).
  • I believe that the DHSS in NI (called DHSSPS between 1999 and 2016, and now the Department for Health) always operated completely independently as an organisation from the rest of the UK's DHSS.
  • Even though it is clinically and administratively run as part of the NHS structure, its budgeting and procurement is allocated from what's called the Northern Ireland Block Grant - a big pot of money set aside to run NI's affairs. Between 1972 and 1999, under the political system of Direct Rule, this grant was allocated and administered by specific Northern Ireland Ministers appointed by the government of the day in Westminster. Currently there is no devolved Northern Ireland Assembly operating, and Direct Rule hasn't been restored (which is why things are fooked).

 

  • My understanding is that procurement procedures for DHSS(NI) has always been localised, and as such I don't think Northern Ireland cars could have had any organisational connection to the DHSS Heywood depot.
  • You're correct in stating that all the Model 70s you've uncovered were registered in Belfast, with OI and XI series plates (except GIG, but that's clearly a weird one). 
  • I'm going to suggest here that Model 70s (and indeed any previous invalid carriages, plus all necessary spares) were most likely ordered separately by the DHSS in NI as and when needed directly from the manufacturer - possibly in small blocks of say ten or twenty cars, and maybe fewer - stored at Musgrave Park, and registered as and when they were allocated to a user. Then, when stocks were running low, another batch was ordered.
  • Or - to put it another way - NI cars were maybe in the unique position of being ordered and paid for in exactly the same way as private Model 70s, while remaining DHSS ('government') property - but the owner here was DHSS(NI), Hence the inclusion of the standard DHSS chassis plates, but the confusing way in which they were allocated. I'm wondering if the contract number stamped on is in any way different from those on GB cars?
  • This is perhaps why sometimes there are entire blocks of NI cars, and then sometimes only one or two NI examples hiding amid bigger blocks of GB plated cars. With constant spending constraints, DHSS(NI) might have put in some big orders for Model 70s at the start of a given financial year - and then later on found themselves running short due to demand, but were only able to pay for two or three as needed from the remaining budget. Sometimes, they may have ordered a car and then un-ordered it again, putting it back into the general DHSS pool - hence the registration anomalies picked up on upthread.
  • Similarly, I think that could be the reason for NI cars being excluded from the GB DHSS spare parts list - because mechanics in England, Scotland or Wales would never have to work on these cars. DHSS(NI) had their own mechanics and, presumably, their own spares lists based on their procured Model 70s.

 

  • I think that the vast majority of Model 70s in NI being AC built, rather than by Invacar, suggests that DHSS(NI) purchased them directly from the AC factory using a Direct Award Contract (DAC). This is a common government procurement method when there is no competitive advantage to going out to public tender for procuring something, because only one supplier makes the thing they want. Now, here there were two manufacturers each building broadly the same car, which is unusual - but perhaps the AC factory offered more flexibility in payment, storage or shipping; or maybe Surrey being slightly closer to the Irish Sea than Essex allowed for slightly cheaper delivery costs.
  • Unfortunately, it's unlikely that any paperwork remains to prove or disprove this theory. The 'not wanting to send over cars with Essex on the badge' is a good theory, but I don't think that's the reason!
  • It's also possible that Invacar-built Model 70s only appeared towards the end of the scheme, when production had ceased, as declared surplus cars were moved out of Heywood and shipped over to NI under NHS rationalisation plans in the early 1980s - because it made more sense to move the odds and ends to one smaller geographical area. Hence new Model 70s being registered well into the 1980s.
  • The display in the Ulster Transport Museum (now removed) stated that there were still 1,700 three-wheeled invalid carriages being used in NI as late as 1994, which sounds like quite a lot - but then, as pointed out upthread, The Troubles left a lot of people with serious, life changing injuries. 
  • The now-removed information boards in the museum also set out why some people were reluctant to change over to an adapted car, even though efforts to promote adapted cars over Model 70s were being made in the early 1980s:
     675337872_20190205_123858small.thumb.jpg.a90c6e21f747f93aad534239a1f7a2b7.jpg

    2027448047_20190205_123742small.thumb.jpg.0aa9bb90684dbce74cc81c4827972557.jpg

So - that's my tuppence worth! All this is mostly conjecture, based on my awareness of NI's history and also government procurement procedures, mixed in with your recent discoveries - but I'm happy for you to pick holes in this, if there's crucial facts I've missed!

Oh, and the car which went from an NI plate to a GB plate may have been allocated to someone living in NI who subsequently moved (or returned) over to the Mainland.

I think at that time it would have been a requirement to reregister the vehicle with DVLA, using a new or age-related plate - I don't think 'cherished numbers' (cheap ageless NI plates in GB) were a thing until the records were computerised in the mid-80s, with DVLA and DVLNI administrations then able to access the other's records.

Although the car technically would have belonged to DHSS(NI), if there were specific adaptations for the user then it's possible that common sense prevailed and this particular Model 70 was signed over to GB DHSS - or possibly there was an arrangement that another Model 70 would be sent over to Musgrave Park to replace it. Either way, I'd hazard a guess that this was an ad-hoc arrangement.

I'm wondering whether someone from the Disabled Drivers Association NI may be able to fill in some of the gaps here for us? They're on Facebook... I'm guessing they must have members with a good understanding of exactly how the system ran in NI.

Great going, guys - it's true to say you're breaking new ground here, for sure!

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Ohh thank you for your write up :)

its exactly what I was hoping for if that makes sense!

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:
  • You're correct in stating that all the Model 70s you've uncovered were registered in Belfast, with OI and XI series plates (except GIG, but that's clearly a weird one). 
  •  

Yeah, GIGs original registration looks to be WOI4001 so that makes it fit in with the rest

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I'm going to suggest here that Model 70s (and indeed any previous invalid carriages, plus all necessary spares) were most likely ordered separately by the DHSS in NI as and when needed directly from the manufacturer - possibly in small blocks of say ten or twenty cars, and maybe fewer - stored at Musgrave Park, and registered as and when they were allocated to a user. Then, when stocks were running low, another batch was ordered.

its worth noting for what its worth that the NI Model 70's where always in between blocks of mainland cars

they never interrupted a block persay

its interesting to note that all the Invalid vehicles in this video have english registration numbers (assuming this actually happened in belfast! I know its not 1959 because Invacar Mk12s are shown which where not introduced until 1960, so perhaps the location is wrong too? Im not sure)

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I'm wondering if the contract number stamped on is in any way different from those on GB cars?

thats the thing the contract numbers are the same as British cars

WOI654

WOI 654 VIN plate.jpg

VES108S (XEV88S) close relative to SOI7570

57099111_330005871201654_7051248629629059072_n.png

 

REV451R (note the "tippex" over the government property bit LOL)

image.png

and TPA621M, interesting to note that it looks to be part of the first 301/x/x/x contract, being 301/1/1 if im reading that correctly

Image from iOS (2).png

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I think that the vast majority of Model 70s in NI being AC built, rather than by Invacar, suggests that DHSS(NI) purchased them directly from the AC factory using a Direct Award Contract (DAC). This is a common government procurement method when there is no competitive advantage to going out to public tender for procuring something, because only one supplier makes the thing they want. Now, here there were two manufacturers each building broadly the same car, which is unusual - but perhaps the AC factory offered more flexibility in payment, storage or shipping; or maybe Surrey being slightly closer to the Irish Sea than Essex allowed for slightly cheaper delivery costs.

aye this could well be possible, I know that Invacar basically had no storage space, and struggled to store Invacars rolling off the production line as it was

so I doubt they could of handled the extra load/uncertainty of the NI cars

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

This is perhaps why sometimes there are entire blocks of NI cars, and then sometimes only one or two NI examples hiding amid bigger blocks of GB plated cars. With constant spending constraints, DHSS(NI) might have put in some big orders for Model 70s at the start of a given financial year - and then later on found themselves running short due to demand, but were only able to pay for two or three as needed from the remaining budget. Sometimes, they may have ordered a car and then un-ordered it again, putting it back into the general DHSS pool - hence the registration anomalies picked up on upthread.

its worth noting that throughout the Model 70 production, no NI block is bigger then about 10 cars

until we get to the end of Model 70 production where there's a block of 20 NI cars, then VPGS243S-VPGS269S then 53 more NI Model 70's after that to the end of the Chassis block (and thought to be the end of Model 70 production)

 

again that's another thing, as well as having blocks of registration numbers, AC Model 70's  in particular also had blocks of chassis numbers

 

in that using made up numbers

Chassis number went like this S1-S2500, then B1-B500 then F1-F1750 etc (worth noting that the leading letter did not go alphabetically and i'm still trying to figure out what it meant exactly!)

and each chassis block ended with round numbers with reg blocks ending when the chassis block changes (ie it never changes from one chassis block to another chassis block mid reg block, hence why the KPK32P-KPK76P block is only 45 cars big, as thats when that chassis block ends)

which makes me suspect it may have something to do with the contract given at the time by the DHSS

which again makes me suspect SOME cross talk between NI and GB DHSS must of taken place

otherwise the NI cars could not fit in if that makes sense? or would have to have their own chassis numbers

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:
  • The display in the Ulster Transport Museum (now removed) stated that there were still 1,700 three-wheeled invalid carriages being used in NI as late as 1994, which sounds like quite a lot - but then, as pointed out upthread, The Troubles left a lot of people with serious, life changing injuries. 
  • The now-removed information boards in the museum also set out why some people were reluctant to change over to an adapted car, even though efforts to promote adapted cars over Model 70s were being made in the early 1980s:

I think the 1700 figure is either for GB or GB and NI combined because this video says either 200 or 500 Trike users in 1981 in NI https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-year-of-the-disabled-1981-online

and I don't see how that number could suddenly balloon to 1700 in the space of 2 years when in 1983 the Issuing of Model 70's to new users ended

(again thats another thing, we know in GB, that the last civilian Model 70 was issued in July 1978, but the option to war pensioners remained until 1983, which coincides with the latest registered Model 70 I can find being from 1983 CXI936 if the invalid vehicle scheme in NI was independent from GB, then surely they would have their own dates etc?)

you say the display is removed, is WOI654 still there? I hope its safe!

 

the points you make are valid that the Model 70's in NI where entirely separate from the DHSS in england

but theres too many things that connect the 2 for me to totally agree with that

its worth noting that under the DHSS, the Invalid vehicles where run by the invalid vehicle service the IVS, I wonder this specific department was the same between DHSS GB and DHSS NI?

anyways these where my corresponding thoughts :) 

 

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

Great going, guys - it's true to say you're breaking new ground here, for sure!

 

Thanks :) so much new stuff uncovered! 

from all the NI Model 70's through the private Model 70's to S Reg tippen deltas!

(side note I only know of 1 NI or ROI im not entirely sure, Tippen Delta DNI89, sadly does not produce a result on anything, but I know its a Petrol Tippen Delta 3 from 1961 apparently)

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On 11/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, LightBulbFun said:

 @BorniteIdentity your Tippen Delta is here! :mrgreen: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174088082071

 

hang on...

Tippen delta and a Model 70 in one shot

@Mrs6C this is not your friend who said he had both a Tippen Delta and a Model 70 is it?

otherwise this makes 3 people I know of that have both a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta!

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59 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

hang on...

Tippen delta and a Model 70 in one shot

@Mrs6C this is not your friend who said he had both a Tippen Delta and a Model 70 is it?

otherwise this makes 3 people I know of that have both a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta!

I doubt it as I don't think he'd be selling it any time soon.

Found this...

 

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3 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I doubt it as I don't think he'd be selling it any time soon.

Found this...

 

interesting!, do let me know if ya manage to get details and pics on the Model 70/Tippen Delta he has :) 

ah yes I v seen that one a few times, note 5821F right at the start, singular letter Reg :) 

(also Invacar Mk10 galore :) )

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keep meaning to mention

had my 6th driving lesson today :)

again I think it went quite well, today I focused on getting quicker at pulling out of junctions, making sure to shift into 1st before I come to a stop so I don't have to worry about shifting to 1st when pulling out of the junction

also did some more mingling with traffic, and dealt with roadworks and temporary traffic lights which was interesting! I also practiced holding the clutch up just before/at the bite point so I could set off quickly etc

I have not asked how well he thinks im doing, although I do plan to

but I think he thinks im doing well, as today initially, he wanted to take me to the place they do the actual tests at to familiarize myself with that area, but since it would take a good 20 mins to get there he was like "do you want to drive there?" as a way so the 20 mins spent getting there is not just me sitting twiddling thumbs

which is a good sign if he thinks im good enough to go there with me driving, but I asked that we practice pulling out of junctions just little bit more, as at the point I was still a bit too slow I think, so thats what we did this lesson which I think went well, im definitely quicker/more confident then before today :) 

I definitely think i'm getting better at this whole driving malarkey :) 

next lesson is scheduled for monday :) 

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12 minutes ago, trigger said:

IMG_20191108_182834.thumb.jpg.2556632bc5db155f99df4d092d64e014.jpg

IMG_20191108_182845.thumb.jpg.cfccfd2ddbcf30424ecad9e17cd1ffb7.jpg

 

gosh that is shiny :) 

makes me very happy to see a Model 67 that even vaguely looks roadworthy, let alone this shiny :)

did you happen to talk with the owner and or get any details of it?

I have not seen the inside of a Mk15 before so im very curious to see what it looks like

and a long shot, but you did not happen to grab pictures of the engine bay and the front suspension area? 

such a shame its been rung with the ID of a Model 57, im hoping in time to find the actual chassis number location on the actual chassis on villiers machines, so I can ID these rung ones, and the ones where the chassis plate has been lost/removed (did the tax disk say anything out of curiosity ?)

sadly the actual chassis number location on the chassis itself is only currently known where it is for Model 70's

thank you for grabbing these 2 pics at least :) 

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It looks like petrol tanks failing in Invacars was a known issue at the time, not only now...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1974-11-15/debates/b977e745-ddfe-4176-a0e2-c82a058beff4/Invacars(PetrolTanks)

The Hansard archives have quite a few records of discussions about Invacars, invalid tricycles etc. Worth a look!

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1 minute ago, Mrs6C said:

It looks like petrol tanks failing in Invacars was a known issue at the time, not only now...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1974-11-15/debates/b977e745-ddfe-4176-a0e2-c82a058beff4/Invacars(PetrolTanks)

interesting :) 

I wonder if its to do with this, rather than petrol tanks failing per say, just high demand of petrol tanks caused by the need to retrofit of a safer design,  causing supply issues

image.thumb.png.03798c2cb0f99532dc4bf42d5f960c62.png

image.png.42a3e6d4b5d017408d1f3e6da8918c8f.png

 

image.thumb.png.0984dff507bc9f5449cfaab5d48d003c.png

 

interesting to note that wales has its own little section

image.thumb.png.630e21b27b0580219a3af8ee939e1ddb.png

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Could be, though one wonders how a delay in replacement for increased safety would cause hardship to users, unless the vehicles were taken off them pending the refit and therefore they were without a vehicle in the meantime, but perhaps it was just a political point being made at the time.

This Hansard extract is interesting. It looks like entitlement to an invalid vehicle ceased on reaching pension age. As people would still have had mobility requirements as pensioners, it might explain why private vehicles were purchased. Pensioners would otherwise have had to give up their mobility when the DHSS-supplied models were taken away.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1977-04-26/debates/7c8c262a-69f5-4989-9974-94ca13055601/DisabledPersons(Mobility)?highlight=invacar#contribution-fd34f3ce-5f29-4b51-803a-0346bfd86b94

Mr Giles Shaw (Pudsey)

I am sure that all hon. Members agree with the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) about the problems and difficulties of obtaining ramps, door handles and switches at the right levels.

I want to refer particularly to the problems facing disabled people who are retired or who are about to reach retirement age. All hon. Members will have constituency cases, but I want to bring to the attention of the House one particular case which, after discussion with those concerned, I have permission to raise.

It concerns a Mr. and Mrs. P. of Yeadon. Mrs. P. is 58 and her husband 64. Both are disabled, not because of immobility in their limbs, but because they have breathing difficulties and cannot move easily. The wife became a registered disabled person first, but, since she was not able to drive, she did not apply for an invalid vehicle. Her husband became disabled 18 months ago and he has an invalid car. He has also received a letter from the Department of Health and Social Security, written on 26th July, which states

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

The text goes on to further discussion, but that was the salient part.

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19 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

 

interesting find because im pretty sure for example Marion webb was well past pension age when she finally had to give up TJN352R on the 14th of Oct 2004

I wonder if his case had something specific going on, or if the rules changed at some point

will discuss with stuart at some point :) 

 

22 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

unless the vehicles were taken off them pending the refit and therefore they were without a vehicle in the meantime, but perhaps it was just a political point being made at the time.

thats what im thinking, approved repairer takes vehicle off the road to be retrofitted, only to find they cant get the part in due to high demand, so the vehicle is left stranded etc

(although you would think they would only take a vehicle off the road once they have the part in stock!)

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welp this just put a spanner in the works

just uncovered KOI3637 an Invacar Model 70....

it somewhat explains some chassis number weirdness in the spare parts lists which we thought was a typo I think...

technically its chassis number corresponds to the reg JHJ582N, but JHJ582N has a higher chassis number then the rest of the JHJ block (JHJ578N-JHJ582N all do) then JHJ583N etc snaps back to normal

and also may explain why in some invacar registration blocks of say 100, the chassis numbers increase by more than 100 by the end of the block, perhaps  indicating that there may be some NI cars hiding in the blocks

 

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Private Invacar Model 70 Number 28! this one was missing a dot where there usually is one when a private Invacar model 70's chassis number does include dots,, ie its normally AAA.A.AA but this one was  AAAA.AA 

I did search for 4-7 10-22 and 24-27 with this new info but sadly still nothing

does mean REV was not the last private Model 70 and it looks like Invacar built more then my 25 estimate, but not far from it! (also looks pretty strongly that Invacar built more/had more private Model 70's orders then AC did)

 

  screencapture-vehicleenquiry-service-gov-uk-ViewVehicle-2019-11-09-03_11_30.thumb.png.e9e20485212e4048ece91b6592453ea0.png

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just discovered something interesting about my new toy/tool

it can sort of tell you about VIN number changes

in that if you put the VIN number it was previously before it changed, it will still pull up that vehicle :) 

should help when I come to sort out "TTW906R"/TVW4R (I mean I know its TVW4R, but just still figuring out how to explain it all to the owner!)

(and WOO848S, that one is running around with the Chassis number for XEV87S on its V5 for some reason, sadly i don't have any detailed pics of WOO848S so I can't say if WOO848S is or is not actually XEV87S)

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A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

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2 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

Until the mid 1980s all Irish registrations were in a common series both north and south of the border; who administered the southern series?

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29 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

Good theory :) (with all this NI stuff once more I wonder about the invalid vehicle @Faker knows of, it may answer some questions! )

my comercial "HPI" tool can do ROI stuff too, but sadly nothing has yet to turn up, but ill shove in some more chassis numbers and see if anything pops up

BTW Stuart says the IVS would of been the same for both GB and NI regardless of the fact the 2 DHSSs where run independently 

since the IVS was sort of its own organization , and that for regional stuff they had the whole artificial limb and appliance centers thing etc

which you can see mentioned above with wales having their own specific instructions for example, so I imagine NI would of had its own special ALAC instructions

 

if ROI really had Model 70's I really need a picture of one so I can take its reg and just see what does it come back as!

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the earliest Miller conversion Tippen Delta I can find that still shows up on the DVLA, its number 25 :) (with FRN420S being the latest I can find, number 546)

screencapture-vehicleenquiry-service-gov-uk-ViewVehicle-2019-11-10-00_11_00.thumb.png.9decc5c48c6cda11ce435271c75276f9.png

 

I just need to find a Tippen Delta that comes back as steam powered and then ill have a fuel type bingo LOL (a few of the YTB-N cars come as petrol for some reason!)

a fun result of these conversions is that you can have a late Delta with an early body for example YTB768N has a Tippen Delta 5 body, but HCK972N has a Tippen Delta 8 body :) 

(note YTBs rounder front profile and larger wheels etc)

image.png.033a6994e4ac0ce91c69e6711310cd84.png

HCK972N.jpg

 

for those wondering only 21 or so tippen deltas of any/all type are known to survive (with just 4+1 on How many left) between ONO454D and HCK972N popping up, my self restraint/control is being seriously tested, esp with HCK as that looks to be in good shape at least cosmetically and is actually in the UK! (I can just about make REV work i ain't got space for 2 more for a start LOL not to mention I very much want/need to get REV roadworthy first!) 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 12:39 AM, Mrs6C said:

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

 

stuart says that in the 1970's there where a lot of policy changes going back and forth regarding eligibility etc 

but that once the scheme closed to new applicants, those that had a invalid vehicle, where allowed to keep it till death do part or well until 2003-2004!

 

side note spotted this on ebay looks pretty neat shame i cant read any of it! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143432071439

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On 11/8/2019 at 5:47 PM, LightBulbFun said:

its interesting to note that all the Invalid vehicles in this video have english registration numbers (assuming this actually happened in belfast! I know its not 1959 because Invacar Mk12s are shown which where not introduced until 1960, so perhaps the location is wrong too? Im not sure)

Hey hey - will respond more fully to the all the points raised (and please be aware, I'm absolutely loving all this), but just to confirm that this film was definitely shot in Belfast - can't tell if it was '59 or '60, though I'd be inclined to go with '60 or later based on the  presence of Mk12s - but the initial footage shows the City Hall and Donegall Square East, and (I think) the more rural shots were filmed in the Gilnahirk area, at the junction of Upper Gilnahirk Rd West and Braniel Rd.

Not that I've driven it, trying to identify the location or anything...

😶

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6 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

Hey hey - will respond more fully to the all the points raised (and please be aware, I'm absolutely loving all this)

happy to see at least a small gaggle of people on here still find my invalid vehicle deep diving interesting! :) 

6 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

but just to confirm that this film was definitely shot in Belfast - can't tell if it was '59 or '60, though I'd be inclined to go with '60 or later based on the  presence of Mk12s - but the initial footage shows the City Hall and Donegall Square East, and (I think) the more rural shots were filmed in the Gilnahirk area, at the junction of Upper Gilnahirk Rd West and Braniel Rd.

very cool good to know! indeed I think 60 (if not later) due to the Mk12s and also at 3:09 you can clearly see 587UPU, which is a Jan 61+ reg if im reading things correctly :) 

again interesting to note its all british registrations, did everyone drive from the UK up to NI? that would be one hell of a trip in a villers powered machine! or are these all local cars but with british regs somehow?

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Am much enjoying the depth of knowledge and detective work in this thread. I don't know why the owner's register aren't begging/beseeching/bribing you to join, LBF. Oh and good luck with the driving - my first time behind the wheel (apart from on Dad's lap) was in a Moggie Thou at on school property, in the dark.

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57 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Am much enjoying the depth of knowledge and detective work in this thread. I don't know why the owner's register aren't begging/beseeching/bribing you to join, LBF. Oh and good luck with the driving - my first time behind the wheel (apart from on Dad's lap) was in a Moggie Thou at on school property, in the dark.

Thanks :) ah my first time behind the wheel was in @Zelandeth Lada Riva! page 53 :) im really quite curious to get behind the wheel of it again or @Mrs6C ZX and see how they are to drive/I get along now that I have had more experience, especially on the whole clutch control front!

 

yeah the whole ICR situation is sad and frustrating, the guy who runs it simon, nice enough chap, but sadly has very little time and relatively  poor communication skills, as well, while he is an enthusiast for them its more surface level if that makes sense? as not actually knowing much about the invalid vehicle especially not in the depths that me and stuart and others on this forum go into

which is what you need if your running a registire/car club for them!

its also frustrating as stuart has some lists he would like to send me, (his own chassis number lists etc)

but technically that's property of the ICR, which simon runs now, and he is dragging his feet on that as always

and this is funny in a roll your eyes sort of way in that that it all came to head somewhat when Simon contacted me in a bit of a panic about his Tippen Delta and if it shows up on the DVLA or not, and if he can V62 it etc

because for his live demonstration he did a week or 2 ago, turns out at the last moment or something he needed it insured, and the insurance company required it be in his name!

thankfully for him, they gave him 30 days to get it in his name, and since he only needed the insurance for a few days he was able to cancel the insurance before then, or at least in theory! 

its still showing as insured, so looks like ill have to poke him about that!

image.png.b4c6cc98c044cbff4957c24fc6d214e4.png

I say funny, because I told him months ago, that you really should get your 20 or so invalid vehicles in your name! (or at least for the ones that show up on the DVLA still)

for exactly these such reasons!

im hoping at some point he can find time to visit me in person so we can sit down and discuss and sort all this out, and also get my foot in the door at the ICR so to speak

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Today I had my 7th lesson

and today is when I went out on the open road proper :) 

I drove from home to the place where they do the driving tests to start familiarizing myself with that area for when I do the driving test, where I learned a bit more about "meeting" other cars (ie when theres parked cars either side of the road and you have to drive down the center and what to do if you meet another car coming the other way

and then we did more driving around, including some pretty major roads going along the A106 and A12 IIRC, got up to 5th gear and 50Mph! changing lanes following road markings and signs etc!

which was fun, quite nerve wrecking, but it was more fun then nerve wrecking so iv turned that corner so to speak :) 

then after more mingling with London traffic I drove back home (well to the local chippy :) )  where I encountered and followed RM871 on the 8 which was a very pleasant surprise :) (I knew it was 60th aniversery of the 8 IIRC where they where running some Routemasters etc, but I did not expect to encounter the route today)

so yeah today went very well! next lesson is on friday :) 

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interesting little tidbit on TJN352R, it entered left Marion webbs keepership after exactly 23 years somewhat poetic that :) 

although she kept using it until the 14th of october 2004, I noticed on a good number of invalid vehicles that made it to the end, that they all have keeper changes around 2002, my theory on that is that the vehicle was transferred out of the users name and to the local ALAC/AR? in preparation for withdrawal 

image.thumb.png.731eedbad0df0b75213fcf70d375f3cc.png

also interesting to note while its currently thought that for DHSS Model 70's etc it went Invacar/AC where the first keeper then DHSS 2nd then the user 3rd, iv seen a good number of vehicles with just keeper counts of 2 or such or where the 2nd keeper is not until a good time after the vehicles registration, which makes me wonder if something else went down,

perhaps they were all directly registried to the DHSS from the get go with the factory acting like a car dealer would, which would still explain the same Essex/Surry regs etc, but im pretty sure @egg Mk12 was registered TO invacar which backs up the theory that the factory was the first keeper then they were transferred onwards, so go figure! unless those records meant it was registered BY invacar?

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6 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Glad to hear your lessons are going well LBF. When you say made it to the end do you mean the Invacars stopped being used by the DHSS around 2002/3?

Thanks :) 

Yeah invalid vehicles that survived to/have tax due dates 2003-2004

31st of March 2003, was the deadline/cut off point IIRC

but there where about 30 or so IIRC, Model 70's that continued to run around after that date, because of difficulties in getting the users a driving licence, or getting a suitably adapted motability scheme car

Marion webb and TJN352R being such and the last example, only finally giving up her Model 70 on the 14th of October 2004

just see how many lessons she needed! (letter is from 2006)

image.png

I do wonder what foot controls REV had initially, the cut out in the floor matting does not seem to line up with the pedal box of a normal foot pedal's Model 70

or at least looking at pictures it does not line up, I do wonder if REV had foot steering? while that was not a standard Model 70 option im sure the crazy guys back in the day could of done something to enable that!

(I have read on the internet of someone adapting an invalid vehicle probably Model 70, to enable a guy to drive/steer it with his 1 good foot! but its the internet so pinch of salt LOL) 

thats also assuming that Marion remembers correctly! (Dennis web got REV in 1985 not 1986!) but the cut out in the rubber floor matting and screw hole in the floor seems to back it up that there was something there at some point

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22 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I agree that the coach is an early Plaxton Premiere, probably a Volvo B10M but could be a Scania or Dennis Javelin.

ahh hard to think that was only just over a year ago!

(still bugs me as to what happened to the DNX car!)

22 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I didn't realise the motabilility scheme came in that late. 

Motability scheme first showed up in the summer of 1976 IIRC

but contrary to popular belief the Model 70 would not murder you your family and everyone you loved if you used it, and a large amount of people continued to use their Model 70's into the 1980s and beyond

that and from what I understand at first the motability scheme allowance would not really actually let you run a car

going by the few thousand Model 70's iv run through the DVLA checker and their tax due dates, roughly Mid to late 1980's is when people started to jump ship enmass it looks like

 

14 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

When were the last invalid vehicles ordered by the DHSS? I'm talking generally not specifically Invacars or Model 70s.

id say the last of the Model 70's or maybe the last of the harding hand propelled invalid carriages (the Model 33/33J)

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