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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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the earliest Miller conversion Tippen Delta I can find that still shows up on the DVLA, its number 25 :) (with FRN420S being the latest I can find, number 546)

screencapture-vehicleenquiry-service-gov-uk-ViewVehicle-2019-11-10-00_11_00.thumb.png.9decc5c48c6cda11ce435271c75276f9.png

 

I just need to find a Tippen Delta that comes back as steam powered and then ill have a fuel type bingo LOL (a few of the YTB-N cars come as petrol for some reason!)

a fun result of these conversions is that you can have a late Delta with an early body for example YTB768N has a Tippen Delta 5 body, but HCK972N has a Tippen Delta 8 body :) 

(note YTBs rounder front profile and larger wheels etc)

image.png.033a6994e4ac0ce91c69e6711310cd84.png

HCK972N.jpg

 

for those wondering only 21 or so tippen deltas of any/all type are known to survive (with just 4+1 on How many left) between ONO454D and HCK972N popping up, my self restraint/control is being seriously tested, esp with HCK as that looks to be in good shape at least cosmetically and is actually in the UK! (I can just about make REV work i ain't got space for 2 more for a start LOL not to mention I very much want/need to get REV roadworthy first!) 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 12:39 AM, Mrs6C said:

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

 

stuart says that in the 1970's there where a lot of policy changes going back and forth regarding eligibility etc 

but that once the scheme closed to new applicants, those that had a invalid vehicle, where allowed to keep it till death do part or well until 2003-2004!

 

side note spotted this on ebay looks pretty neat shame i cant read any of it! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143432071439

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On 11/8/2019 at 5:47 PM, LightBulbFun said:

its interesting to note that all the Invalid vehicles in this video have english registration numbers (assuming this actually happened in belfast! I know its not 1959 because Invacar Mk12s are shown which where not introduced until 1960, so perhaps the location is wrong too? Im not sure)

Hey hey - will respond more fully to the all the points raised (and please be aware, I'm absolutely loving all this), but just to confirm that this film was definitely shot in Belfast - can't tell if it was '59 or '60, though I'd be inclined to go with '60 or later based on the  presence of Mk12s - but the initial footage shows the City Hall and Donegall Square East, and (I think) the more rural shots were filmed in the Gilnahirk area, at the junction of Upper Gilnahirk Rd West and Braniel Rd.

Not that I've driven it, trying to identify the location or anything...

?

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6 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

Hey hey - will respond more fully to the all the points raised (and please be aware, I'm absolutely loving all this)

happy to see at least a small gaggle of people on here still find my invalid vehicle deep diving interesting! :) 

6 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

but just to confirm that this film was definitely shot in Belfast - can't tell if it was '59 or '60, though I'd be inclined to go with '60 or later based on the  presence of Mk12s - but the initial footage shows the City Hall and Donegall Square East, and (I think) the more rural shots were filmed in the Gilnahirk area, at the junction of Upper Gilnahirk Rd West and Braniel Rd.

very cool good to know! indeed I think 60 (if not later) due to the Mk12s and also at 3:09 you can clearly see 587UPU, which is a Jan 61+ reg if im reading things correctly :) 

again interesting to note its all british registrations, did everyone drive from the UK up to NI? that would be one hell of a trip in a villers powered machine! or are these all local cars but with british regs somehow?

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Am much enjoying the depth of knowledge and detective work in this thread. I don't know why the owner's register aren't begging/beseeching/bribing you to join, LBF. Oh and good luck with the driving - my first time behind the wheel (apart from on Dad's lap) was in a Moggie Thou at on school property, in the dark.

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57 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Am much enjoying the depth of knowledge and detective work in this thread. I don't know why the owner's register aren't begging/beseeching/bribing you to join, LBF. Oh and good luck with the driving - my first time behind the wheel (apart from on Dad's lap) was in a Moggie Thou at on school property, in the dark.

Thanks :) ah my first time behind the wheel was in @Zelandeth Lada Riva! page 53 :) im really quite curious to get behind the wheel of it again or @Mrs6C ZX and see how they are to drive/I get along now that I have had more experience, especially on the whole clutch control front!

 

yeah the whole ICR situation is sad and frustrating, the guy who runs it simon, nice enough chap, but sadly has very little time and relatively  poor communication skills, as well, while he is an enthusiast for them its more surface level if that makes sense? as not actually knowing much about the invalid vehicle especially not in the depths that me and stuart and others on this forum go into

which is what you need if your running a registire/car club for them!

its also frustrating as stuart has some lists he would like to send me, (his own chassis number lists etc)

but technically that's property of the ICR, which simon runs now, and he is dragging his feet on that as always

and this is funny in a roll your eyes sort of way in that that it all came to head somewhat when Simon contacted me in a bit of a panic about his Tippen Delta and if it shows up on the DVLA or not, and if he can V62 it etc

because for his live demonstration he did a week or 2 ago, turns out at the last moment or something he needed it insured, and the insurance company required it be in his name!

thankfully for him, they gave him 30 days to get it in his name, and since he only needed the insurance for a few days he was able to cancel the insurance before then, or at least in theory! 

its still showing as insured, so looks like ill have to poke him about that!

image.png.b4c6cc98c044cbff4957c24fc6d214e4.png

I say funny, because I told him months ago, that you really should get your 20 or so invalid vehicles in your name! (or at least for the ones that show up on the DVLA still)

for exactly these such reasons!

im hoping at some point he can find time to visit me in person so we can sit down and discuss and sort all this out, and also get my foot in the door at the ICR so to speak

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Today I had my 7th lesson

and today is when I went out on the open road proper :) 

I drove from home to the place where they do the driving tests to start familiarizing myself with that area for when I do the driving test, where I learned a bit more about "meeting" other cars (ie when theres parked cars either side of the road and you have to drive down the center and what to do if you meet another car coming the other way

and then we did more driving around, including some pretty major roads going along the A106 and A12 IIRC, got up to 5th gear and 50Mph! changing lanes following road markings and signs etc!

which was fun, quite nerve wrecking, but it was more fun then nerve wrecking so iv turned that corner so to speak :) 

then after more mingling with London traffic I drove back home (well to the local chippy :) )  where I encountered and followed RM871 on the 8 which was a very pleasant surprise :) (I knew it was 60th aniversery of the 8 IIRC where they where running some Routemasters etc, but I did not expect to encounter the route today)

so yeah today went very well! next lesson is on friday :) 

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  • LightBulbFun changed the title to Invacar Model 70 Acquired! and general ramble thread, index on page 1, Phase 2: finding a suitable driving school/instructor getting lessons and a licence! 7th lesson had! finding all the NI cars

interesting little tidbit on TJN352R, it entered left Marion webbs keepership after exactly 23 years somewhat poetic that :) 

although she kept using it until the 14th of october 2004, I noticed on a good number of invalid vehicles that made it to the end, that they all have keeper changes around 2002, my theory on that is that the vehicle was transferred out of the users name and to the local ALAC/AR? in preparation for withdrawal 

image.thumb.png.731eedbad0df0b75213fcf70d375f3cc.png

also interesting to note while its currently thought that for DHSS Model 70's etc it went Invacar/AC where the first keeper then DHSS 2nd then the user 3rd, iv seen a good number of vehicles with just keeper counts of 2 or such or where the 2nd keeper is not until a good time after the vehicles registration, which makes me wonder if something else went down,

perhaps they were all directly registried to the DHSS from the get go with the factory acting like a car dealer would, which would still explain the same Essex/Surry regs etc, but im pretty sure @egg Mk12 was registered TO invacar which backs up the theory that the factory was the first keeper then they were transferred onwards, so go figure! unless those records meant it was registered BY invacar?

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6 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Glad to hear your lessons are going well LBF. When you say made it to the end do you mean the Invacars stopped being used by the DHSS around 2002/3?

Thanks :) 

Yeah invalid vehicles that survived to/have tax due dates 2003-2004

31st of March 2003, was the deadline/cut off point IIRC

but there where about 30 or so IIRC, Model 70's that continued to run around after that date, because of difficulties in getting the users a driving licence, or getting a suitably adapted motability scheme car

Marion webb and TJN352R being such and the last example, only finally giving up her Model 70 on the 14th of October 2004

just see how many lessons she needed! (letter is from 2006)

image.png

I do wonder what foot controls REV had initially, the cut out in the floor matting does not seem to line up with the pedal box of a normal foot pedal's Model 70

or at least looking at pictures it does not line up, I do wonder if REV had foot steering? while that was not a standard Model 70 option im sure the crazy guys back in the day could of done something to enable that!

(I have read on the internet of someone adapting an invalid vehicle probably Model 70, to enable a guy to drive/steer it with his 1 good foot! but its the internet so pinch of salt LOL) 

thats also assuming that Marion remembers correctly! (Dennis web got REV in 1985 not 1986!) but the cut out in the rubber floor matting and screw hole in the floor seems to back it up that there was something there at some point

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22 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I agree that the coach is an early Plaxton Premiere, probably a Volvo B10M but could be a Scania or Dennis Javelin.

ahh hard to think that was only just over a year ago!

(still bugs me as to what happened to the DNX car!)

22 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I didn't realise the motabilility scheme came in that late. 

Motability scheme first showed up in the summer of 1976 IIRC

but contrary to popular belief the Model 70 would not murder you your family and everyone you loved if you used it, and a large amount of people continued to use their Model 70's into the 1980s and beyond

that and from what I understand at first the motability scheme allowance would not really actually let you run a car

going by the few thousand Model 70's iv run through the DVLA checker and their tax due dates, roughly Mid to late 1980's is when people started to jump ship enmass it looks like

 

14 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

When were the last invalid vehicles ordered by the DHSS? I'm talking generally not specifically Invacars or Model 70s.

id say the last of the Model 70's or maybe the last of the harding hand propelled invalid carriages (the Model 33/33J)

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15 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

There's a picture further up the thread with a yard with a coach in it. 

your referring to this picture right? :) 

Image from iOS (6).jpg

right on page 1 post 1 :)

pretty sure its travelers central, tried to find a way in to ask if they knew about the Model 70, but my brother who was with me at the time was bricking himself LOL

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1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

your referring to this picture right? :) 

Image from iOS (6).jpg

right on page 1 post 1 :)

pretty sure its travelers central, tried to find a way in to ask if they knew about the Model 70, but my brother who was with me at the time was bricking himself LOL

I know that colour scheme... can't place it!!! I'm going to say a Volvo but typically anything you can use to identify it from that angle is obscured! It is a Premiere 320 Mk.1.

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3 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

According to the Motability website it was 1978:  Link

 

interesting stuarts small book alludes to July 1976, ill check with stuart exactly what the deal is :) 

( I know the last civilian Model 70's where issued on the 5th of July 1978 due the way Motability worked with different age groups at time)

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15 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

Reading further down the page on that link, I see that 1976 was the year of introduction of Mobility Allowance, a cash allowance, which I suppose is what Ford were targeting.

ah yes my bad thats what it says in stuarts small book too

I was getting mobility allowance and the motability scheme mixed up there :) 

(the 5th July 78 thing is still to do with Motability however)

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21 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Why was the switch made from Invacars etc to Motability? 

thats a long story, but in short

people wanting regular cars (for free) rather than specially built adapted cars

not helped by a vocal minority etc,

its a fun story of people complaining then back peddling once they realised they would no longer get a free car etc

esp as the invalid vehicle service did issue adapted Morris Minors and Minis in certain situations, which would have also been lost should the IVS have closed back then

the government originally wanted to withdraw all invalid vehicles by 1981, the last one was not withdrawn until the 14th of october 2004!

says something doesn't it! 

its also interesting with today's mobility scooters, things have sort of gone full circle being very similar in principle to the earliest electrically propelled invalid carriages!

the Invacar walked an interesting line between (Motorised) wheelchair/mobility scooter, and full blown car

its one of the reasons they were all single seaters, as the DHSS viewed them as an Appliance as if they were like a very big wheel chair, and you don't see 2 seater wheelchairs do you! like wheelchairs they were, something given to an individual to enable them mobilize/get out and about

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On 3/9/2019 at 12:44 PM, egg said:

 

Well, between 2016 and 2017 there was a company called Invacar LTD - with two Directors from Chemsford. But details are scant, and they never filed accounts.

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09975477

its interesting to note that the guy "Richard John" seems to also be a directory at the "new" greeves motorcycle company

so I dont think its any coincidence that there was a company called invacar in chelmsford for a while, but I wonder why, what was his plan with the new company?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/xE4P-VrBaVmprXp6x0tPmJlgUCc/appointments

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7 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

There was also a stigma thing, iirc. A modified Escort, Mini or whatever blends in more

aye very much so also this, sadly a lot of people wanted a normal car, not because they did not like the invacar, but because as you say they wanted to get away from the stigma attached to them by abled body people etc, a normal car allowed them to avoid that

(just see all the very much "non PC" terms for invalid vehicles!)

but thats more an issue with society then it is with the invalid vehicle itself

(I did start typing about it, but rearranged my text during writing and seemingly forgot to put that back in!)

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18 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

What licence do you need to drive an invalid vehicle? 

now thats a fun question! are we talking historically or current day?

historically 

for invalid vehicles that are under 254Kg and as such are classed as an invalid carriage

from what I understand you would get (after a short test) given an invalid carriage licence/entitlement which they don't issue/give anymore

for vehicles weighing more then 254Kg but under 410Kg you would get given whatever they called a Tricycle licence back in the day, a class 3 licence I think?

its worth noting that the Later Model 70's weighed 413Kg which according to the RTA means they classed as Motor Cars not Motor Cycles like 255-410Kg vehicles are, but AFAIK users of those Model 70's still only got issued a class 3 licence, so the government breaking its own laws there LOL

I know for example marion webb had to pass a driving test when getting a motability car, but that you did have to take a (very basic mind) test and get a licence when given an invalid vehicle, much to country to popular belief that you did not need a licence

 

image.png

 

these days things are less clear! since the Model 70 etc is classed as an Invalid vehicle on the V5 which some twonk decided that road registered mobility scooters should also use, which results in:

"taxing your mobility scooter: REV451R" yeah sure whatever m8!

image.png 

(and then John the owner at the time got a nasty letter about not insuring REV because suddenly its not SORN, even tho "mobility scooters" don't need insurance, I suspect it was a case of one department ignored the revenue weight  while the other department saw the revenue weight and realised its not a mobility scooter! either that or maybe all owners of mobility scooters got a nasty letter due to the DVLA shenanigans who knows!))

 

but for example since REV is classed as a Motor car by the RTA, im going to go on the assumption she needs a full car licence to drive

but because she is not classed as a Tricycle (remember she is classed as an invalid vehicle) and the RTA say an invalid vehicle over 410Kg is classed as a motor car, that the whole you have to be 21+ to drive a 3 wheeler does not apply here, since well she is classed as Motor car not as a Tricycle like a reliant robin or such would be (REV is down as 413.2kg in the 1985 V5 and 413.0Kg in later V5s) which is good since im only 20!

 

and as for where actual invalid carriages stand, I don't really know since they dont do the whole invalid carriage entitlement anymore!,

 

then theres the question of where would a provisional licence holder stand, remember they are single seaters! but there are plenty of examples of invalid vehicles on L plates from back in the day...

 

I do wonder in all of this, one of the questions asked when being assessed for disability benefits etc, is IIRC, do you use any mobility aids, wheelchair crutches etc I wonder how badly the system would break if I put "an Invacar Model 70" in the box LOL

I mean its true! thats one of the reasons I bought REV so I could finally leave the house and no longer be so housebound, and it is an invalid vehicle, something designed to help with mobility like a mobility scooter etc

(and before anyone says "but in 2003", remember REV is a private example :) )

 

invalid vehicles are once again a prime example of just how much of a mess/flustercluck the road laws/DVLA can be sometimes LOL

 

 

the TL;DR is: I just treat the Model 70 like you would any other 4 wheeled car these days

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27 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

That's interesting thanks LBF. According to the ever reliable source that is Wikipedia all the government owned Invacars got scrapped in 2003/4, is this true or a load of rubbish? 

well thats what was supposed to happen

the invalid vehicle service policy for end of life machines was to "mutilate beyond economical repair"

(this especially after some shenanigans in the 1980s/1990s of people using ex IVS invalid vehicles for piss taking/bad reasons, before then you could supposedly just say your going to scrap it and buy an invalid vehicle from the government for £1 but they stopped that after above shenanigans and people not actually scrapping them)

 

but thankfully some escaped that fate :) a small number where officially donated to museums etc thanks to work done by the ICR

 

 

 but most survours are ones that either never got scrapped by the scrap yard they were sent to and just sat around for years and years (remember they have no scrap value, well the fibreglass ones anyhow!), which is how TWC725K XWC468F, TPA621M etc survived for example

or where flat out stolen from the government by approved repairers who where meant to scrap them but instead gave them to friends etc,

usually with the instruction that it must never be seen in the road or the approved repairer would get a bollocking since they were meant to destroy it and the government may well have tried to take it back from the friend since it was effectively stolen government property

(which is why you see so many rung invacars, esp from the 1990s, before they became public domain, as people tried to hide their IDs to stop the government from taking it back, like MPH759P for example, which left ministry service in 1997, and was then rung under a false chassis number and Q reg Q231PVL, until I fixed that!)

this is for example how OPH868R survived (although thankfully she avoided being rung, having actually been kept off road since she left service in 2003-2004)

however thankfully since the invalid vehicle service ceased to be in 2004, all government owned invalid vehicles became public domain basicly and ceased to be government property :) and you don't have to worry about the government chasing you up or ex approved repairs getting a bollocking etc

but the government's policy of destroy, is sadly why so few invalid vehicles survive today, and why sadly many models of invalid vehicles are thought to be extinct, like the Invacar Mk10 etc

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