invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

10 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I gave REV and Dolly a pat on the nose today and also your trailer, as @TheDoctor was visiting the FoD and we went over to have a look at them.

aww  funny you should do/say that as apparently later in life Bert Greeves would always go up and pat any invacar he happen to come across  

10 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

was visiting the FoD and we went over to have a look at them.  It was very wet getting there, though fortunately a bit drier where they were parked. Both Dolly's rear tyres have lost their air again, so I must pop her up on some blocks at the back, to keep her undercarriage out of the grass.

the wheels from my Trailer should fit onto Dolly, at least well enough to keep her up in the air, so you welcome to borrow the wheels off the trailer if need be  

(the Model 64 used the same MoH spec 12 inch wheels that early Model 70's used, so although not year appropriate for Dolly they should fit, I think! same 4x100 or there abouts PCD I know that much) 

I appreciate the photo, nice to see them together even if in the distance  

[LightBulbFun]

you know I just realised that the queen has been pictured standing next to more then 1 Model 70! I always thought it was the same one in different locations/photos

but I realised one is an AC the other is an Invacar!

I THINK this one is MPH758P

but I have  no idea which Invacar Model 70 this one is!

[LightBulbFun]

actually looking closely at its features

im almost positive its RPF19R

so erm, not an Invacar then LOL (at least not according to its registration and body mounted chassis plate, I sadly dont know the number stamped into the chassis itself)

[Jmac]

Hi LBF , just caught up on the thread , it all rolling forward nicely , and a good read . I saw you said about the halfords 200 pc kits on offer , I don't know but is your car metric or imperial size nuts and bolts ? . That kit is more metric than imperial ( only 20 pcs imp ) and must weigh 15+ kilo . If it's imperial I think a more suitable sized sockets and spanners could be got separately to make a kit to suit your needs ,  and keep the weight down . Then just screw drivers to fit your sizes , pliers , mole grips and imperial Allen keys if you need them . 

[Mrs6C]

12 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

actually looking closely at its features

im almost positive its RPF19R

so erm, not an Invacar then LOL (at least not according to its registration and body mounted chassis plate, I sadly dont know the number stamped into the chassis itself)

The tax disc holder is identical, also the black plastic mirror, also the (rare!) steering wheel, so I believe this is a correct deduction...

[Mr Pastry]

15 minutes ago, Jmac said:

Hi LBF , just caught up on the thread , it all rolling forward nicely , and a good read . I saw you said about the halfords 200 pc kits on offer , I don't know but is your car metric or imperial size nuts and bolts ? . That kit is more metric than imperial ( only 20 pcs imp ) and must weigh 15+ kilo . If it's imperial I think a more suitable sized sockets and spanners could be got separately to make a kit to suit your needs ,  and keep the weight down . Then just screw drivers to fit your sizes , pliers , mole grips and imperial Allen keys if you need them . 

Yes I'd agree with that.  Its very easy to buy a whole lot of tools that you don't really need, and you just end up carting them around.  Its probably better to start by working out just what size sockets and spanners you really need for the car, of course it is a mix of all sorts of threads.   Lots of cheap spanners at boot sales and charity shops.  And a 3/8" drive socket set is the size to go for.

[LightBulbFun]

21 minutes ago, Jmac said:

Hi LBF , just caught up on the thread , it all rolling forward nicely , and a good read . I saw you said about the halfords 200 pc kits on offer , I don't know but is your car metric or imperial size nuts and bolts ? . That kit is more metric than imperial ( only 20 pcs imp ) and must weigh 15+ kilo . If it's imperial I think a more suitable sized sockets and spanners could be got separately to make a kit to suit your needs ,  and keep the weight down . Then just screw drivers to fit your sizes , pliers , mole grips and imperial Allen keys if you need them . 

Thanks glad to hear that people are still enjoying the thread  

thats one of the "fun" things about The Model 70 it is a fun mix of metric and imperial, as its a british built/designed vehicle, but it has a European Austrian engine and other such europain components in its drive train, so its about 50% Metric and 50% imperial IIRC, (with a sprinkling of Whitworth thrown in for good measure, im looking at you bracket for the rear engine mount!)

8 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yes I'd agree with that.  Its very easy to buy a whole lot of tools that you don't really need, and you just end up carting them around.  Its probably better to start by working out just what size sockets and spanners you really need or the car, of course it is a mix of all sorts of threads.   Lots of cheap spanners at boot sales and charity shops.  And a 3/8" drive socket set is the size to go for.

indeed, especially with my back id like to avoid unnecessary weight if possible!

 

perhaps @Zelandeth or @dollywobbler who have done much work to their Model 70's could clue us/me into what size spanners/sockets etc are used the most/I might need the most/should focus on getting first etc  

[Mrs6C]

Way back you were offered the opportunity to buy ATW 722L, but the chap wanted more for it than you wanted to pay. In the January 2019 edition of Classic & Sportscar, there is an article on a chap called Neal Anderson, examining his classic car collection. Much is made of his Invacar, ATW 722L and he has the yellow Volvo 850 estate that was towing it in the picture you have of it in your list.

Is Neal the same chap who offered to sell it to you or is he the one who bought it when you didn't?

[keef]

26 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

The tax disc holder is identical, also the black plastic mirror, also the (rare!) steering wheel, so I believe this is a correct deduction...

Same missing paint on wiper arm and mirror hole in osf wing. 

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Way back you were offered the opportunity to buy ATW 722L, but the chap wanted more for it than you wanted to pay. In the January 2019 edition of Classic & Sportscar, there is an article on a chap called Neal Anderson, examining his classic car collection. Much is made of his Invacar, ATW 722L and he has the yellow Volvo 850 estate that was towing it in the picture you have of it in your list.

Is Neal the same chap who offered to sell it to you or is he the one who bought it when you didn't?

Yerp same guy, the car ended up being exported to Kuwait of all places! to join a private collection sadly I know nothing of its new owners etc, perhaps I should ask Neal if he is willing to divulge anymore details of just who it was sold to  

twas/is a very shiny Model 70 ill give it that much!

25 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

The tax disc holder is identical, also the black plastic mirror, also the (rare!) steering wheel, so I believe this is a correct deduction...

indeed, at first I noticed the steering wheel control, and wondered so pulled up a pic of RPF and it all fell into place

looking at/thinking about things, I dont think I know of any (genuine?)  surviving Invacar Model 70's that have steering wheel steering!...

[Mrs6C]

4 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

twas/is a very shiny Model 70 ill give it that much!

In the article he says: "I didn't want to take away its patina, so I've just cleaned it and got it roadworthy."

He adds: "Thanks to the Invalid Carriage Register, I got its original registration back."

Parts are noted to be from other cars, like a Mini indicator stalk, Triumph switches and Landrover indicators.

It has a hoop boot stay.

[timolloyd]

53 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

you know I just realised that the queen has been pictured standing next to more then 1 Model 70! I always thought it was the same one in different locations/photos

but I realised one is an AC the other is an Invacar!

I THINK this one is MPH758P

but I have  no idea which Invacar Model 70 this one is!

Bet you can’t wait for this episode of The Crown!

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

In the article he says: "I didn't want to take away its patina, so I've just cleaned it and got it roadworthy."

thats not entirely true sadly, I think at the start it was true, but at some point in time ATW722L was resprayed using the "invalid carriage blue" colour formula sheet thingy from 1994

(on that note does the paint code GL1300 mean anything to anyone?)

2 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

It has a hoop boot stay.

indeed, but has a dimple in the body work for the Invacar Rod type stay, but AC Style mould lines!

been a bit of a mystery that has!, I do wonder if it had replacement bodywork at some point, as the NOS body also has a Dimple for the Invacar Rod stay, but AC style mould lines

(because, as shown on Dolly etc, im pretty sure AC Model 70's remained with the Hoop style stay, and did not have any dimple to accommodate the rod style stay, even to the very end AFAIK)

sadly I dont have a large/reliable enough sample size of Early Invacar Model 70's to know what type of mould lines they had, or what type of Bonnet stay early Invacar Model 70's had

[Mrs6C]

I have just noticed that in the lower photograph of Her Majesty with Model 70s, she is presented in that very same pale green-ish blue that Model 70 paintwork shows under certain light conditions...

If it's good enough for Her Majesty, it's good for Model 70s!

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

I have just noticed that in the lower photograph of Her Majesty with Model 70s, she is presented in that very same pale green-ish blue that Model 70 paintwork shows under certain light conditions...

If it's good enough for Her Majesty, it's good for Model 70s!

haha yeah I noticed that  

I wonder if it was intentional in any way or not!  (I like to think it was LOL)

[High Jetter]

With closures of our independantly owned cinema after 100 years, TJ Hughes and Debenhams and others as well there have been many pictures of chod in the local rag, but this is the first invalid one I've seen - not sure if you can make much out from it.

  

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

With closures of our independantly owned cinema after 100 years, TJ Hughes and Debenhams and others as well there have been many pictures of chod in the local rag, but this is the first invalid one I've seen - not sure if you can make much out from it.

  

Ah cool!, to the Model 70 that is! not the closure of the cinema!

when you say local rag, do you mean thats a scan from a news paper, or is it from the online version of that news paper?

its a shame its not higher rez as I sadly cant make out the registration number, but going by its features (10 inch wheels but single wing mirror) I want to say its a 1975-1976 Model 70 or thereabouts

[High Jetter]

I downloaded it from the website after seeing it in print. Local reg letters were HC and JK, could it be  *JK ***P or R? I think  you said that most were registered where they were issued from, but am pretty sure I've seen at least one locally reg'd over the years.

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

I downloaded it from the website after seeing it in print. Local reg letters were HC and JK, could it be  *JK ***P or R? I think  you said that most were registered where they were issued from, but am pretty sure I've seen at least one locally reg'd over the years.

ah good to know

indeed, apart from NI Model 70's all DHSS Model 70's where registried where their respective factory was located

so ACs where registered in Surrey, PA PB PC PD PE PF PG PH PJ PK PL and PM joined in 1974

and Invacars in Essex, EV HK NO PU TW VW VX, until the early 1960s then  OO WC joined the essex markers, then in 1974 so did AR HJ and JN

if you know of a Model 70 with a local registration them id be VERY interested in knowing what its details, as the only Model 70 with non factory location, registration numbers are the very few that where sold privately rather then to the government

(and even then Most private Invacar Model 70's still had Essex registrations, the only non Essex Invacar Model 70 I know of is LRL389P, Private Invacar Model 70 number 9, it was mostly the private AC Model 70's that had non factory registration numbers)

[LightBulbFun]

heres a list a of all the Private Model 70's I have been able to find on the DVLA system, if any ring any bells or such!

On 11/7/2019 at 3:50 PM, LightBulbFun said:

so continuing with the whole "yay I have a VIN to reg tool" thing

I now suddenly had/have a way to find private Model 70's

see the problem with finding those before was, being private etc they were not registered together in nice neat blocks like DHSS cars where

at least with the Invacar ones at least most did lurk inside DHSS blocks so it would be possible to detect if one existed in a block if the chassis numbers fell behind by 1 in a block

but the ACs where never registered inside a DHSS block so there was no way to find those

but now I have a VIN to reg tool, I can find them, because the private Model 70's have their own chassis number series, that did go up consecutively from one private example to another

so armed with all that, I was able to find a good number of private Model 70's  

 

sadly its not known if which survive or not (some have scrap markers some don't) apart from the obvious 3 RRE20L JNJ135L NPN924P and REV451R

and sadly there are a lot of missing cars, but more on that in a bit

starting with Invacar Model 70's 

is OOO661M hiding in the OOO-M block, this is thought to be the first private Invacar Model 70

 

Private 2 is PPU942M, hiding in the PPU-M block

 

 

Private number 3 is POO214M, hiding in the POO-M block, its interesting to note how close together PPU942M and POO214M where registered, I wonder if they where bought by the same couple or something like that 

 

then sadly Private number 4 to Private number 7 does not turn anything up

Private number 8 is JHJ548N, hiding in the JHJ-N block sadly its not actually known if this on survives or not it did have a keeper change in 2009 so I like to think it still exists

 

then private Number 9, this one is very interesting, because its not part of any DHSS block, nor is it even essex registried 

 

then finally private number 23! REV451R, hiding inside the REV-R block, this one mine  I do wonder if she is the last surviving private Invacar Model 70 given the unknown about JHJ above, scary thought! (and I cant find anything above number 23, so I suspect REV may of been the last Private Invacar Model 70)

sadly theres 12 car gap between Private number 9 and private Number 23,

I dont know what happened to these cars, and also worth noting that March 76 we are on private 9, then suddenly in less then a year by November 76 we are on private number 23!

it sounds almost like some private person or company ordered 12 Model 70's in one go for 1 reason or another!

the whole random periods in the chassis numbers does not help things either, perhaps those 12 are on the system, but have a stray decimal point somewhere messing things up so i cant find em!

I did try a few combinations of decimal points in various locations but never turned anything up

 

then onto AC's as mentioned these where never registered in any DHSS blocks, and most where registried where the first keeper was, but a couple where seemingly registried in Surry/at the factory

its hard to say which AC Private Model 70 is what number ie i cant say which is the 1st or last exactly, because the chassis numbers for them are already into the 2000s by the earliest private Model 70's, I doubt AC sold 2000 Private Model 70s by 1972, so I imagine the chassis number scheme is a continuation from Pre Model 70 private cars

 

RRE20L is the earliest private AC Model 70 I can find

next is JNJ135L (which does not have a scrapped marker thankfully, but does not show up on the DVLA checker for some reason) this one is 1 chassis number up from RRE20L, Stuart says this one very much does still exist

 

next is GPM346L, 1 up from JNJ135L yet registered a good few months before it, go figure that one out! Surry reg but not part of any DHSS block

 

then theres a missing car

then after that missing car is VFG958L "fife m8!"  

  

then after that is PPG124L, again not part of any block but is surry registered 

then there are 3 chassis numbers that dont turn anything up

then finally the last one to show up is NPN924P, note its AC ELECTRIC but without the brackets

 

there are 10 cars/chassis numbers from inc RRE20L to inc NPN924P, but only 6 return results sadly

 

so yeah looks like the private Model 70's are even more of a mystery then initially thought!

 

a couple corrections since writing this up

GPM346L, would have been East Sussex registried (PM but before 1974), its interesting to note just how many of the Private AC Model 70's are East Sussex registried! (JNJ135L GPM346L and NPN924P)

then I also found another Private Invacar Model 70, one after REV, UTW339R, private example number 28, sadly I cant find anything else between REV and UTW

[egg]

41 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah good to know

obviously the newspaper will have the original print - I would see if you could contact them and see if they will show you a higher res version (for research purpoises!)

[LightBulbFun]

8 hours ago, egg said:

obviously the newspaper will have the original print - I would see if you could contact them and see if they will show you a higher res version (for research purpoises!)

Yeah I was thinking something along the lines of that  tho I got a few other people etc higher up on the priority list I need to get round to emailing first

 

speaking of for research purposes,

finally got the V62 and cheque, for The Model 64 filled out  with any luck it will be posted off tomorrow, I have filled in the V62 as per normal. but I have put "Historic vehicle" down for the tax class rather then "disabled" as it will be interesting to see (assuming the DVLA does have info on this Model 64 still etc) if you can directly change the tax class like this,

especially as someone else I spoke to, said when they called the DVLA regarding how to fill out a V62, the guy on the DVLA end said to fill out the tax class line, as such if you want the vehicle in the historic tax class

(that someone tho has not yet sent of his V62's as im still waiting for him to send me chassis number pictures of all his Model 70's so I can verify which ones they are and make sure he sends off off  for the right V5's, so I dont currently know if you can or cannot actually do that)

hopefully you can, because then in future it will save a load of hassle with the post office etc! and seeing as someone from the DVLA said you can, im giving it a shot  

 

[Mrs6C]

49 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah I was thinking something along the lines of that  tho I got a few other people etc higher up on the priority list I need to get round to emailing first

 

speaking of for research purposes,

finally got the V62 and cheque, for The Model 64 filled out  with any luck it will be posted off tomorrow, I have filled in the V62 as per normal. but I have put "Historic vehicle" down for the tax class rather then "disabled" as it will be interesting to see (assuming the DVLA does have info on this Model 64 still etc) if you can directly change the tax class like this,

especially as someone else I spoke to, said when they called the DVLA regarding how to fill out a V62, the guy on the DVLA end said to fill out the tax class line, as such if you want the vehicle in the historic tax class

(that someone tho has not yet sent of his V62's as im still waiting for him to send me chassis number pictures of all his Model 70's so I can verify which ones they are and make sure he sends off off  for the right V5's, so I dont currently know if you can or cannot actually do that)

hopefully you can, because then in future it will save a load of hassle with the post office etc! and seeing as someone from the DVLA said you can, im giving it a shot  

 

Personally, I'd go for the path of least resistance, as it's more likely to get you the result needed most quickly i.e. a V5C for it. Leave the tax class blank at this stage and let the DLVA send you the V5C with whatever they have recorded for it on the system already. If you ever get around to restoring it with replacement mechanicals and bodywork (which as it's a chassis you could) you could then declare it MOT exempt and insure it and change the tax class when you go to tax it...

[LightBulbFun]

41 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Personally, I'd go for the path of least resistance, as it's more likely to get you the result needed most quickly i.e. a V5C for it. Leave the tax class blank at this stage and let the DLVA send you the V5C with whatever they have recorded for it on the system already. If you ever get around to restoring it with replacement mechanicals and bodywork (which as it's a chassis you could) you could then declare it MOT exempt and insure it and change the tax class when you go to tax it...

interesting about leaving the tax class section blank, I have not heard of anyone doing that before I dont think, is that what you did for Dolly?  

but yeah I normally would say path of least resistance as you say, thats why Iv said previously (when handling @egg's case etc) to put disabled in the tax class, as I know pretty well that thats the tax class it would have on the DVLA system (assuming they still had that info in record)

but as this is my own situation etc, I figured id take the opportunity test things out so to speak I obviously wasn't going to "experiment" with someone else's vehicle etc!

but the Model 64 presents a good opportunity for me to find out myself  

and also as previously mentioned it does not show up on the DVLA online checker currently, so it might fall over at the first hurdle, if the DVLA just does not have any info on it!, (the big question here is, when did it leave DHSS service and end up as a trailer?)

but that is another reason im sending off the V62 in the first place, im very curious what will happen in such a situation

we do know from @egg with XWC468F and @strangeangel and his moped that V62's can still work even if it does not show up on the checker, so im curious if 3rd times lucky!

and as mentioned previously, theres a number of invalid vehicles I know of, that Stuart said definitely did not show up on the DVLA when he first knew of them, and now they do, and going by anomalies those vehicles have on the DVLA checker, I suspect those where all "brought back to life" just like XWC/the Moped was

perhaps even "accidently", someone could easily send off a V62 without ever checking the vehicle on the online system, especially if they don't know about it etc so unknowingly bringing it back to life, when if they had checked it online and didn't show up, everyone would of probably told the person to V765 it! (goes back to a comment I made back when XWC468F was brought back to life, that I wonder how many vehicles have been incorrectly V765'ed when they could have been V62ed all along!)

 

basically the TL;DR im sending the V62, not just to get the v5 etc but also as an opportunity to "test"/case study on the DVLA and figure just exactly what is what etc  

because the more info we have on this subject the better we can streamline and optimise future V62's etc and what have you for future vehicles and avoid any chance of things going wrong, information being recorded incorrectly or unnecessary paperwork etc  

[Mr Pastry]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

basically the TL;DR im sending the V62, not just to get the v5 etc but also as an opportunity to "test"/case study on the DVLA and figure just exactly what is what etc

Just  be aware that an official person *might* turn up unexpectedly to inspect the vehicle.  Probably not, but it can happen, ask me how I know.  I had to do some quick thinking.  If it's in storage, and you can't get there easily, and you have to make an appointment to see it, that should cover it. 

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Just  be aware that an official person *might* turn up unexpectedly to inspect the vehicle.  Probably not, but it can happen, ask me how I know.  I had to do some quick thinking.  If it's in storage, and you can't get there easily, and you have to make an appointment to see it, that should cover it. 

yeah, I have thought about that, but what you say at the end there, is actually true about this vehicle, it is in storage and I cant easily get to it!  (not from London anyway!)

plus I feel like should they request pictures of it or such, I could make a good argument to them if they say "but its just a trailer" I could easily go full Invacar on them them and explain everything about the Model 64, and that id like to have the vehicle registration documents in my name, before I may commit to what would be a costly and lengthy restoration, and explain that I do not want to restore it, only to find out I cant get its original registration info etc

and im also not trying to get the V5 of a particularly noteworthy vehicle or registration in the eyes of the public or such

(I can imagine for example if I sent off for the V62 for LOO1P then someone might raise an eyebrow and want to see proof of that Model 70's existence)

and I have not done too much different here, as mentioned iv filled out the V62 as per normal, just directly putting "historic vehicle" in the tax class box rather then "disabled" like one currently does when V62'ing an invalid vehicle

so hopefully it wont raise too many eye brows, (the only other thing thats a bit different to a typical V62 application, is as mentioned the vehicle does not show up on the DVLA checker, but thats not something iv done differently on the V62, thats just how it is if that makes sense!)

and so I feel like I have a good and genuine/truthful argument should anyone at the DVLA come knocking!  

 

speaking of the V62, mums just left the house for something, and has taken the V62 letter with her, which has just been posted according to a text message I got just now  

I decided to just do it 1st class, as much as I want to do it tracked, I am mindful that might cause more issues at the DVLA end

(but thats one of the reasons I went through the trouble of getting a cheque book and sending it with a cheque, and why I didn't just go with a postal order, if I see the cheque has been cashed then I know the V62 has got there and is making good progress!)

now its a waiting game, and hoping the DVLA can hold it together!

[keef]

The less complicated you make it the more chance you will get a positive response.

DVLA are very efficient at day to day paperwork. e.g. straight forward forms etc. It is when you introduce something different/out of the ordinary that things can go pear-shaped.  

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, keef said:

The less complicated you make it the more chance you will get a positive response.

DVLA are very efficient at day to day paperwork. e.g. straight forward forms etc. It is when you introduce something different/out of the ordinary that things can go pear-shaped.  

yeah, but this is out of the ordinary right out of the gate going by the fact it does not show up on the DVLA checker currently!

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

so I feel like I have a good and genuine/truthful argument should anyone at the DVLA come knocking!  

Well yes, but you'd have to convince whoever that you have a reasonably complete chassis, and even to somebody not familiar with the design it only looks like half a chassis.  I do think that some of this stuff is taking you into grey areas where maybe you shouldn't go.  

[keef]

12 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

yeah, but this is out of the ordinary right out of the gate going by the fact it does not show up on the DVLA checker currently!

We don't really know if it *is* out of the ordinary. Data could quite easily be drawn from two or more sources at DVLA where as the general public can only draw on one source. I think you have established this by the use of your "tool".