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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Well yes, but you'd have to convince whoever that you have a reasonably complete chassis, and even to somebody not familiar with the design it only looks like half a chassis.  I do think that some of this stuff is taking you into grey areas where maybe you shouldn't go.  

well the whole subject of Invalid vehicles was one big grey area before this thread existed! :) (still is in a few regards sadly!)

obviously if they object im not going to fight them too hard over for the reasons you state, but I figured its worth a try, the worst they can say in the end is "sorry no we cant issue you with a V5 for such and such reason"

1 hour ago, keef said:

We don't really know if it *is* out of the ordinary. Data could quite easily be drawn from two or more sources at DVLA where as the general public can only draw on one source. I think you have established this by the use of your "tool". ;)

exactly! :) which is one of the reasons im doing it, we do know from @egg's conversations with the DVLA that they do have some off line or paper records of some kind in somewhere, and im curious as to just what those are exactly or how far back they go :) 

and im hoping this will be a good test, its just a shame I dont know exactly when this AC Model 64 was withdrawn from service...

(all I know is the previous owner bought it, in trailer form AFAIK from a advertisement in the news papers about 25 years ago!)

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On 2/9/2020 at 12:30 PM, LightBulbFun said:

Ah cool!, to the Model 70 that is! not the closure of the cinema!

when you say local rag, do you mean thats a scan from a news paper, or is it from the online version of that news paper?

its a shame its not higher rez as I sadly cant make out the registration number, but going by its features (10 inch wheels but single wing mirror) I want to say its a 1975-1976 Model 70 or thereabouts

It's not clear enough to be certain but I reckon that might be one of the TJN-R batch. The second digit definitely looks like a J and JN is the only such code used on Model 70s. Nice Richard Bucket-spec Rover 200 behind it too.

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51 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

obviously if they object im not going to fight them too hard over for the reasons you state, but I figured its worth a try, the worst they can say in the end is "sorry no we cant issue you with a V5 for such and such reason"

I was only trying to save you from descending into a life of crime.  But have it your own way! 

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had my 28th lesson today :)

went pretty well! we went to a slightly different location, just some roads/places i have not driven before, just as a safe gaurd for if during the driving test should the instructor decide to take me off the course they normally do

so that was fun especially as the weather was nice and clear (although the sun light, making the road surface/markings hard to read is an interesting issue!), and on the way back home, i had a first generation mustang follow me most of the way, so that was pretty cool! :) (id of taken some pictures but I was driving! LOL)

next lesson is on friday :) 

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  • LightBulbFun changed the title to Invacar Model 70 Acquired! and general ramble thread, index on page 1, Phase 2: finding a suitable driving school/instructor getting lessons and a licence! 28th lesson had! Model 64 V62 sent!
On 2/8/2020 at 10:07 PM, Mr Pastry said:

Yes I'd agree with that.  Its very easy to buy a whole lot of tools that you don't really need, and you just end up carting them around.  Its probably better to start by working out just what size sockets and spanners you really need for the car, of course it is a mix of all sorts of threads.   Lots of cheap spanners at boot sales and charity shops.  And a 3/8" drive socket set is the size to go for.

A possibility would be a socket set from one of the patent flank drive systems like Metrinch, they fit metric, unified and whitworth fasteners with equal aplomb; they are relatively pricey though. I bought a set 20-odd years ago as I had a kitcar with a perverse mixture of fasteners which drove me crazy; it's still going bar the blowmould plastic case suffering hinge death. This isn't a bad set, although the set I splurged on also has 1/2" sockets that go up to 30+mm which is handy when owning clunky lumps of scrap from Solihull. This is it actually, I thought they'd stopped selling it.

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40 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

A possibility would be a socket set from one of the patent flank drive systems like Metrinch, they fit metric, unified and whitworth fasteners with equal aplomb;

That's interesting.  I was aware of these but have never used them - How good they are on really tight stubborn fasteners?  You could also argue that a good skill for a beginner to develop is to recognise the size and thread type from the look of the hex head, and that may not come so easily if he can just grab the nearest spanner and it fits anyway.  But of course the main point is to get the job done. 

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20 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

A possibility would be a socket set from one of the patent flank drive systems like Metrinch, they fit metric, unified and whitworth fasteners with equal aplomb; they are relatively pricey though. I bought a set 20-odd years ago as I had a kitcar with a perverse mixture of fasteners which drove me crazy; it's still going bar the blowmould plastic case suffering hinge death. This isn't a bad set, although the set I splurged on also has 1/2" sockets that go up to 30+mm which is handy when owning clunky lumps of scrap from Solihull. This is it actually, I thought they'd stopped selling it.

ah cool, I wasn't aware such thing existed :)

looks like the first set you linked, could work quite well for me I think, given its specifically designed to do both Metric and imperial sizes.

would be interesting to hear if anyone else with more experience than me has any thoughts on if I should or should not get it etc?

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12 minutes ago, barrett said:

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.584254fa0f69bbba057ad73e39d0ab48.jpg

807 BP?

I think I have worked out that it's the Harper that was styled by Spike Rhiando. Still definitely the best invalid carriage out there.

Oh very cool! yeah I remember you talking about that back in the early Model 70 days on DW's thread :) out of curiosity, what tells you there that it was the harper that he designed, is that a book on his designs or such?

 

On 12/27/2017 at 4:37 PM, barrett said:

It's generally known that Spike Rhiando designed 'a fibreglass invalid car for AC' and as the Mk14 Acedes was the first fibreglass AC Invacar it must be that one - the model 70 is simply a refinement of the Mk14 design although obviously mechanically quite different.

 

I'm not 100 per cent sure I belive this though, as Spike was getting busy working with fibreglass in the early 1950s it seems more likely he was responsible for the first plastic Invacar (mk12? I'm a bit rusty on this stuff) or perhaps the Harper? Certainly the Harper is flashy enough to have come from his fertile mind.

 

That doesn't really help, does it? This is the whole reason I love these cars - they must be the only postwar production cars about which so little is certain. I wish somebody would take the time to carry out some proper research before everybody involved is dead but it seems unlikely. I guess there is lots we will never know.

 

interesting that its described as a three wheel sedan, (rather then as an Invalid vehicle/carriage) going by the above and going by this https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_179637-Harper-Invacar-1957.html (that im guessing your aware of by way of your comment on it :)

that I wonder if harper briefly tried to sell the Mk6 as a normal 3 wheel car or such rather then just as an invalid vehicle? (of course I could just be reading into things too much! LOL) although I do notice that the windscreen wiper is off set to the right hand side of the vehicle in the one you have pictured above... (but the one in the movie looks to be centrally positioned)

as normally it normally is (because single seater central driving position as per most invalid vehicles)

image.png.75dba3f5b6ef605a0a633d9ba003f863.png

 

 

(I do still wonder who at AC was responsible for the design of the AC Acedes Mk14/15 and Model 70)

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I've no real evidence except that I discovered Rhiando was the designer of the abortive Scootomobile two-wheeler (below) in about 1955, so he was clearly employed in some fashion by Harper during the 1950s. It's certainly the only invalid carriage that shows real signs of 'styling' in the traditional sense.

I wouldn't put any stock in the 'three wheel sedan' phrase as that comes from a book about the plastics industry and isn't any official marketing from Harpers.

Harper-1955c-Scooter-Wikig.jpg.b03880159129d816dbfc1c0a23cf50e9.jpg

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8 minutes ago, barrett said:

I've no real evidence except that I discovered Rhiando was the designer of the abortive Scootomobile two-wheeler (below) in about 1955, so he was clearly employed in some fashion by Harper during the 1950s. It's certainly the only invalid carriage that shows real signs of 'styling' in the traditional sense.

I wouldn't put any stock in the 'three wheel sedan' phrase as that comes from a book about the plastics industry and isn't any official marketing from Harpers.

Harper-1955c-Scooter-Wikig.jpg.b03880159129d816dbfc1c0a23cf50e9.jpg

very interesting :) 

and speaking of interesting i noticed something interesting with the above picture, its said that in April 1957 the Harper Mk6  replaced the Harper Mk4, however the above picture shows 807BPx

but AFAIK every xxxBPx registration was issued between May and october 1956, predating the Harper Mk6? so I wonder whats going on there! (either someone's got a date wrong or pictured is some sort of pre production car? which may explain the diffrent windscreen wiper placement)

btw another interesting thing is that scootomobile and the Stanley Mk7 in a publicity photo I know of (827PDV) are devon registered, not Surry registried like most Stanley/harpers where...

 

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1 minute ago, keef said:

Mention of imcdb above but couldn't find this when I did a search :-

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicles_make-AC_model-Invacar.html

ah yeah, im well aware of the IMBCD, you can even find my own Model 70 on there if you know where to look :) (thats how I knew of REV before I came to own her! I remember being befuddled by her chassis number, I wrote it off as DVLA/approved repairer shenanigans back then!)

but what do you mean by "could find this" is my link broken?

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1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

That's interesting.  I was aware of these but have never used them - How good they are on really tight stubborn fasteners?  You could also argue that a good skill for a beginner to develop is to recognise the size and thread type from the look of the hex head, and that may not come so easily if he can just grab the nearest spanner and it fits anyway.  But of course the main point is to get the job done. 

I have found them invaluable when dealing with badly rusted nuts which are no longer anywhere near spec, undoing where a conventional socket or spanner might have just rounded it off. The negatives other than the purchase price have been 1. I've never found the open end of the spanners much use 2. the wall thickness of the sockets is quite thick although probably not thicker than cheap ones, if clearance is tight you may need to resort to buying conventional sockets of the size needed with thin walls(or attack a cheap one with an angry grinder and hope it doesn't burst).

Random factoid; Crystic is a brand name of Scott Bader who sell/make GRP stuff, who still exist.

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I'd guess it's a pre-production car given the slight difference in bumper moulding design, the placement of 'teddy ears' indicators on the rear wings and possibly the cooling vents, which I don't recall seeing before.

Stanley was based in Egham, Surrey, and Harpers was based in Devon. Harpers took over Stanley in about 1955 but I would assume most of the prototype work was undertaken at Exeter, so the one-offs, pre-production and promotional vehicles would have been registered there, whereas the full production cars would have been produced in Surrey? Pure conjecture on my part, of course, but it seems logical. Incidentally, do you know where exactly in Egham the Stanley works was located?

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3 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

I have found them invaluable when dealing with badly rusted nuts which are no longer anywhere near spec, undoing where a conventional socket or spanner might have just rounded it off. The negatives other than the purchase price have been 1. I've never found the open end of the spanners much use 2. the wall thickness of the sockets is quite thick although probably not thicker than cheap ones, if clearance is tight you may need to resort to buying conventional sockets of the size needed with thin walls(or attack a cheap one with an angry grinder and hope it doesn't burst).

Ah cool good to know they work well for that sort of stuff :) , when you say the open of the spanners not being much use, do you mean they dont work well in general as a spanner or they just don't really do well at their special thing of being able to handle both imperial and metric stuff in one?

7 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Random factoid; Crystic is a brand name of Scott Bader who sell/make GRP stuff, who still exist.

oh neat :)  I hadn't come across that term/brand name until now, and was wondering what it was about 

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2 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Ah cool good to know they work well for that sort of stuff :) , when you say the open of the spanners not being much use, do you mean they dont work well in general as a spanner or they just don't really do well at their special thing of being able to handle both imperial and metric stuff in one?

In the sense that they require the hex to be the 'right' size and in good condition, which is ok but compared to the functionality of the sockets and the ring end of the spanners was mildly disappointing, so I'd say the spanners are a 'nice to have' compared to the sockets being ''don't visit the scrappie without them' useful.

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11 minutes ago, barrett said:

I'd guess it's a pre-production car given the slight difference in bumper moulding design, the placement of 'teddy ears' indicators on the rear wings and possibly the cooling vents, which I don't recall seeing before.

Stanley was based in Egham, Surrey, and Harpers was based in Devon. Harpers took over Stanley in about 1955 but I would assume most of the prototype work was undertaken at Exeter, so the one-offs, pre-production and promotional vehicles would have been registered there, whereas the full production cars would have been produced in Surrey? Pure conjecture on my part, of course, but it seems logical. Incidentally, do you know where exactly in Egham the Stanley works was located?

yeah I noticed the rear vents, not seen those before I dont think, although to be honest I dont think iv seen that side of any mk6 before! at least in picture form there are very few pictures about sadly of Harpers, ill have to trawl through the British Pathe videos again and see if I can spot anything of note :) 

but good observation about the teddy ears, I overlooked that!

Yeah, I was wondering if perhaps, prototype work took place in Devon with production taking place in Surrey (but the very early Harper Mk6 you have pictured is Surrey registered so throws a spanner in that somewhat)

heres an advert that gives an address if its any use :)

image.thumb.png.80fa0e0d7ec81562ecc9ec6973a8bab3.png

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39 minutes ago, keef said:

:) 

On 2/23/2019 at 12:15 PM, LightBulbFun said:

NPN924P, AC, Date of first registration: 16 July 1976, Current status: Unknown, Current SORN, no MOT history,  notable for being one of the very few Model 70's sold privately, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued, 31 October 2011

4592418247_a959ef0e3e_b.jpg

the amusing thing that tickles me about NPN924P (I wonder if its fitted with a Transistor radio? :mrgreen: ), is it seems to be a popular "go to" Model 70 everyone uses when they need an example of an Invalid carriage or Model 70

even in articles talking about how they were all government owned and no one could privately own one, and they where "made illegal to drive on the road" etc, and yet unknowingly they use a picture of a Private Model 70 :)

even @quicksilver did back in 2015! :) 

https://rustyoldrubbish.blogspot.com/2015/09/unsung-heroes-invacar.html

Quote

It was never possible to buy an Invacar as they were built exclusively for the government and given to qualifying drivers by the DHSS on indefinite free-of-charge leases as part of their disability benefit.

oh how so much has changed since then! (or more accurately oh how so much has been discovered since then!)

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It's odd that there seem to be more photos of NPN in the public domain than any other Model 70, which would suggest it was quite active at one time and seen by a good few people. The irony of it being a private example would be lost on those who still insist on repeating the government-only myth, especially as it's probably because it was private that it survived!

And I really ought to publish a follow-up to correct all the misinformation in that five-year old piece. Knowing what I do now, I feel quite embarrassed to have written that they were made only for the government, but that was generally accepted as the truth back then and the discovery of the private sales came as quite a shock to me.

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35 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

It's odd that there seem to be more photos of NPN in the public domain than any other Model 70, which would suggest it was quite active at one time and seen by a good few people. The irony of it being a private example would be lost on those who still insist on repeating the government-only myth, especially as it's probably because it was private that it survived!

 

Yeah! :) 

I dont think it was particularly active anymore then any other preserved Model 70 at shows, it just happened to be the couple photos of it floating around the internet happened to be swept up as the general use photo, espically given one was uploaded to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AC_Invalid_Carriage_1976.JPG

so when you google "invacar" or "invalid carriage" its one of the first to pop up :) (infact the 6th image along is the one from your blog! which is how I discovered your blog :)  and then so others use it especially it being specifically released into the public domain etc

im actually only aware of 4 Photos of NPN924P on the internet, (compared to who knows how many there out there of TWC now :) )  

 theres these 2 by @trigger

4592418247_a959ef0e3e_b.jpg

4592425511_298b4735c7_k.thumb.jpg.cb579df1f1e5c401b90d968457f909f7.jpg

 

this one on wikimedia 

AC_Invalid_Carriage_1976.thumb.jpeg.88be55490a5fb58792612c7be0a6e01d.jpeg

the above 3 all being taken at the same show AFAIK, Battlesbridge Classic Car Show 9th May 2010

 

and finally this one, taken by presumably annesley abercorn before he sold it on

 

2-1.jpg

 (NPN924P was originally tracked down by stuart for Annesley who said he very much wanted a Model 70 but specifically a private one, as back then DHSS Cars where still a grey area back then in 2008 or so, only for Annelsy to turn around and sell it on for profit at which point stuart cut him off as Annesley already had done so earlier with JNJ135L and stuart was not going to help him find a 3rd after those 2 incidents!)

 

35 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

And I really ought to publish a follow-up to correct all the misinformation in that five-year old piece. Knowing what I do now, I feel quite embarrassed to have written that they were made only for the government, but that was generally accepted as the truth back then and the discovery of the private sales came as quite a shock to me.

Yeah I have been hoping you would do such a piece for some time now :) (I also hope @dollywobbler will do a video on correcting/myth busting everything at some point )

I very much look forward to when you do, I always very much enjoy the invalid vehicle content, im sure thats a given by now! LOL :) 

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4 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

very interesting :) 

and speaking of interesting i noticed something interesting with the above picture, its said that in April 1957 the Harper Mk6  replaced the Harper Mk4, however the above picture shows 807BPx

 

Try 807 BPD as the registration for that Harper, as the other one was in the 'PD' range...

Here's another Thumbsnap: https://thumbsnap.com/nW7c1oAc?src=tsr

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22 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Try 807 BPD as the registration for that Harper, as the other one was in the 'PD' range...

sadly nothing, although the other was 108DPD, the Surrey reg markers is from PA to PL in this case so it could be any of those, I may try running it thorugh the DVLA checker, but who knows if it still shows up or not, would have had to have survived into the 1980s for it to still show up at the earliest

id love to find a Harper that still shows up on the DVLA, but I dont know of anything yet sadly, while I do know what the chassis number of a Stanley Mk7 looks like on their chassis plate, I dont know what format it would be on the DVLA sadly, so I cant search by chassis number either sadly (not until I find an example that does show up to use as my jumping off point, like I did with the Model 64's etc)

22 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Here's another Thumbsnap: https://thumbsnap.com/nW7c1oAc?src=tsr

ah yeah thats of Stuarts ICR website https://web.archive.org/web/20130123131135/http://invalidcarriageregister.wordpress.com:80/15-the-model-70/

see if you can spot anything unusual about that Model 70 pictured :) 

 

sadly simon decimated that website https://invalidcarriageregister.wordpress.com/

Quote

The ICR is now managed by Simon Mckeown and this site will be updated 2017

so much for that! I dont get it, why remove all the invalid carriage info from the website, what good does that achieve?!

they have a new website http://www.invalidcarriageregister.org/ but it has none of the info of the old website sadly

*sigh* just one of the many things that frustrate and sadden me about the current management of the ICR sadly...

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3 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

The wiper has parked to the right rather than to the left, which is unusual but not unknown...

tbh, didn't notice that until now (or if I did I forgot about it!) but it makes sense give what Model 70 that is :)

just like the Model 67 :) 

72083927_10158839874337388_1182916366496169984_o.thumb.jpg.4891bfca8e947f5b3dc41a3a13e54e15.jpg

heres a slightly higher rez photo :) not just a case of spot what's different, but if you can figure out what Model 70 this is (that in itself should be a clue! :)

invacar-mk12-06.jpg

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