invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

47 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

^^^ Well done! This is a great research project!

Thanks

there's a couple blocks here and there that don't show up on the DVLA at all sadly, but I have enough data and pictures etc, that should a Model 67 with a chassis number in that range pop up, I think I could ID with a little bit of DVLA bashing and triangulation   

now I just have to find/hope that the Model 67's have chassis number on the actual chassis itself, for those that have lost their Chassis plates!

for those wondering the timeline looks like this

it looks like The Model 67, the Mk14 was introduced in either late April or early May 1967, (the earliest to show up on the DVLA being SPD866F, 10 October 1967, but I know of the RPA block RPA451E-RPA550E), then production ran until Late Sept or early october 1968 (latest to still show up on the DVLA being VPL885G, 16 September 1968),

where in Late october or early November 1968 the Mk14A was introduced (earliest to show up being WPD607G, 12 November 1968), which ran until May 1969 (latest to show up being XPH961G, 15 May 1969),

where in June 1969 the Mk15 was introduced (earliest to show up being YPE918G, 8 July 1969), which ran until Late march 1971 (with the latest to show up being FPB854J, 23 March 1971)

and then in late June 1971, the Model 70 was put into production, with earliest Production Model 70 to show up being GPD790J 2 July 1971

 

[LightBulbFun]

does anyone have a vehicle with even less populated data fields on the DVLA checker then this one? LOL

 

(block is APK781H-APK980H for those wondering)

 

bonus Milk float for @Mrs6C as I think I mentioned before I do come across the odd milk float here and there as I go through the regs for invalid vehicle research  

 

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

does anyone have a vehicle with even less populated data fields on the DVLA checker then this one? LOL

 

Arg if only the colour was also not stated id have a winner over here!, I wasn't even trying, I was just feeling out AC Model 64 chassis numbers!

(this is not a Model 64, im not sure what it is! body type is crane, first time I have seen make return as not available LOL)

 

but speaking of Model 64s turns out theres a small block of about 10 Model 64s in the GPD-J reg range, sitting right before the First Model 70s  

and this one lasted an impressively long time!

[LightBulbFun]

check it out an AC Model 64 that surived until the end!, until now of the electric machines it was only thought that 1 or maybe 2 Tippen Deltas and 1 Argson survived until the end, but clearly this Model 64 managed to hang on in there with them  

must of been fun at the approved repairer that was responsible for maintaining it, I can imagine it sitting in a row of Model 70s like the odd one out!

 

 

BTW I went through all the AC Model 64 Mk5 chassis numbers and scooped all the reg numbers up  

it looks like there where only about 200 Mk5s made, and it looks like they were registered in small blocks of about 11 or 10

a surprising number do still show up on the DVLA, but given at this point in time the Model 64 would of been a "special case" vehicle its not too surprising, the user would of been given a Model 64 for a very specific reason rather then say a Model 70, so he would of probably have kept it until he/she gave it up etc, rather then have it replaced with a Model 70 or something such

its interesting since only about 200 Mk5s where made, that they went through the trouble of developing it with its parallelogram front suspension

[LightBulbFun]

doing some more theory test practice, now I know the pictures they use are not the newest

but is that a leyland national?! just how old are these pictures! (this is from the official DVSA learning zone)

 

[busmansholiday]

Yep, short pod Mk I.

[Mrs6C]

Eeek! The spelling of 'practise' - the DVSA 'Learning Zone' should know better!!!

One practises (verb) the practice (noun)... unless the heading was a command to the reader to 'Practise topics!'

Anorak off, now...

[LightBulbFun]

55 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Eeek! The spelling of 'practise' - the DVSA 'Learning Zone' should know better!!!

One practises (verb) the practice (noun)... unless the heading was a command to the reader to 'Practise topics!'

Anorak off, now...

heres the pages leading up to it, so you can see what the context is exactly

 

 

(no im not this good! it just lets you do the questions you got wrong again, although if I may toot my horn a little, most I did get right first time and I only ever got 1 or 2 questions wrong in any one topic for those topics I did make a mistake in  )

speaking of, I just finished all the topics today, and took a mock test, and managed to ace that!, so thats very good, I just have the hazard perception stuff to study/practice and then hopefully I should be ready for to do the theory test  

[Christine]

The correct answer to Q4   is   Prince Philip may be in the area , and blinded by the sun ,  pull out on you

[LightBulbFun]

does this count as late registration madness?, registered on the 3rd of August 1971, yet still a J Reg, when it should be a K reg!

 

go up 3 cars to the next one to show up and you get GTE144K also from the 3rd of the 8th, but which is K reg as it should be!, (also heh GTE  )

since there where only about 546 Miller conversion Tippen deltas made, I decided to also knuckle down and go through the entire chassis number range  

from number 1 to 546 and scoop all the registrations I can for my records

On 3/27/2019 at 5:19 PM, egg said:

Lol. XTC would have been great!

sadly didn't find any starting with XTC, but there could be a Tippen Delta out there with that reg, as TC is Preston, which is the office the Miller Tippen Deltas where registered with

 

also along with GTE another one for the phone people  

 

I also noticed for some reason, a lot of tippen deltas are down as not taxed for on road use, and a lot of these not taxed for on road use ones, have the same date of last V5 issued, and the same marked as scrapped date of the 25th or 26th of the 11th 1985, I wonder what its all about...

[Eyersey1234]

What did the Tippen Delta look like LBF? 

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, Eyersey1234 said:

What did the Tippen Delta look like LBF? 

generally like this, this is a Tippen Delta 8  (the Tippen Delta being the big blue thing, not the small white thing, thats a sinclair C5)

before the Delta 8/Pre 1968 or so, Tippen Deltas had a more rounded front profile, and the Delta 5 and before had larger 16 inch wheels as seen below (the switch to 12 inch wheels happening with the Delta 6)

and before that the Delta 2 had a single head lamp

and the Delta 1 had wire wheels, and a darker blue finish

 

its worth noting that no new tippen Deltas where produced after early 1970 or so, with all later Tippen Deltas being Petrol ones that the DHSS had converted to electric

(making them one of the first if not the first case of mass conversion of a petrol vehicle to Electric!)

 

 

[quicksilver]

Looking at all these photos of different invalid carriages, the AC designs are definitely the best looking. Tippen Deltas are ugly buggers and the Mk12 is just weird. Maybe it's because AC had stylists who were used to working on proper cars?

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, quicksilver said:

Looking at all these photos of different invalid carriages, the AC designs are definitely the best looking. Tippen Deltas are ugly buggers and the Mk12 is just weird. Maybe it's because AC had stylists who were used to working on proper cars?

yep I agree with ya there  (unless its my brain just playing with me, but I can see some styling cues shared between the Model 70 (and 67) and the AC Ace/Cobra, I wonder if they where designed by the same person/people?)

although I think the Mk12 is uglier then the Tippen Delta, certainly  the Delta 8 looks better, could be a tie for the Pre Delta 8s and the Mk12 tho

I like the Mk12 just for how fugly it is, one of those ugly but likeable designs  

this is probably a surprise to no one but I like the Model 70 best, the rear wheel arch extensions proportion things a bit better compared to the Model 67

but let's not forget about the Harper Mk6/Stanley Mk7, not the best looking from the front, but they knew how to do rear ends!

[Eyersey1234]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

generally like this, this is a Tippen Delta 8  (the Tippen Delta being the big blue thing, not the small white thing, thats a sinclair C5)

before the Delta 8/Pre 1968 or so, Tippen Deltas had a more rounded front profile, and the Delta 5 and before had larger 16 inch wheels as seen below (the switch to 12 inch wheels happening with the Delta 6)

and before that the Delta 2 had a single head lamp

and the Delta 1 had wire wheels, and a darker blue finish

 

its worth noting that no new tippen Deltas where produced after early 1970 or so, with all later Tippen Deltas being Petrol ones that the DHSS had converted to electric

(making them one of the first if not the first case of mass conversion of a petrol vehicle to Electric!)

 

 

Thanks LBF. They weren't the prettiest of cars by the looks of things. 

[Mrs6C]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

This is quite lovely.

If we consider other offerings at the time from small-volume motor manufacturers, the various invalid cars were really no different other than having a single seat. Small GRP and aluminium three-wheelers and four wheelers were all the rage as economical family transport for those with motorcycle licences, often gained during military service. This one reminds me of the various Frisky models, albeit they had four wheels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadows_Frisky

Perhaps had invalid cars had two or 2+2 seating arrangements, they would have been seen as more 'mainstream' and more popular. I guess that could have caused some issues with classification as a 'car', but as there was government control over who was issued with them in the first place, this could have been overcome.

[ETCHY]

LBF, have you ever thought of writing a book on the Invacar & other Invalid vehicles?

You've done a lot of research etc & seem to have a lot of info'.

I know there is already a book on invalid carriages but it's a bit thin/lacking.  I'd certainly buy a decent book on the subject.

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

This is quite lovely.

If we consider other offerings at the time from small-volume motor manufacturers, the various invalid cars were really no different other than having a single seat. Small GRP and aluminium three-wheelers and four wheelers were all the rage as economical family transport for those with motorcycle licences, often gained during military service. This one reminds me of the various Frisky models, albeit they had four wheels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadows_Frisky

Perhaps had invalid cars had two or 2+2 seating arrangements, they would have been seen as more 'mainstream' and more popular. I guess that could have caused some issues with classification as a 'car', but as there was government control over who was issued with them in the first place, this could have been overcome.

indeed I have made the comparison beforehand although the Harper Mk6 predates the Frisky, so if anyone copied anyone it would be frisky that copied stanley!

https://autoshite.com/topic/37943-2019-nec-classic-motor-show-8-10-november/?do=findComment&comment=1910371

yes indeed, its interesting to see the complaints about invalid vehicles, you consider the microcars of the time were not that much different

and the Model 70 was much better then any microcar especially!

sadly only one Stanley Mk7 is known to survive, along with 4 Harper Mk6's (and 1 Mk1, although those look very different)

as mentioned the reason they were all single seaters was because the DHSS viewed them as appliances, to help a person get from point A to point B, just like a wheel chair, set of crutches or an artificial limb would be given to help said person get from Point A to point B 

(I also imagine once you start introducing extra seats it might make adapting them for various disabilities tricker)

33 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

LBF, have you ever thought of writing a book on the Invacar & other Invalid vehicles?

You've done a lot of research etc & seem to have a lot of info'.

I know there is already a book on invalid carriages but it's a bit thin/lacking.  I'd certainly buy a decent book on the subject.

your not the first to recommend I do that  

while I have not written anything directly, I have been quite heavily involved in helping stuart with his big book that will be coming out at some point hopefully  

(I know it sat dormant for a long while, until I showed up which I think sort of kicked started stuart into finishing it etc )

[Eyersey1234]

Could you let us know when the book is published please LBF? I'd be interested in getting a copy. 

[ETCHY]

1 hour ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Could you let us know when the book is published please LBF? I'd be interested in getting a copy. 

Yep me too

[LightBulbFun]

Yep dont worry I will let everyone know when it gets published  

im very much looking forward to it as much as anyone else is!  

 

BTW For @dollywobbler

these 2 are indeed invalid carriages, a pair of Harding de luxe's  

[LightBulbFun]

had my 12th driving lesson today (well yesterday now!)

and it went very well! 

as well as the usual traffic mingling, we practiced driving into a parking bay in a parking bay, and reversing back out etc, which I did ok on! managed to finally park within the lines on my 3rd go round LOL

but one of the things I did differently, was I shut up LOL

in that, previously one of things I was doing, as I went do certain things id still check with instructor that It was ok to do what I was doing etc

and at the end of the last lesson the driver instructor told me that this made things a little bit hard for him to judge just how well im progressing, he needed to see how I did on my own etc

and he reassured me that (paraphrasing) if I was about to plow through a bus full of nuns and kittens he was there to take control

so this lesson I kept to myself a lot more, and at the end of the lesson he said I did much better then last time, not only was he able to better assess me, but also regarding keeping the correct distance from parked cars and other things I was previously struggling with somewhat, so yeah thats always a good thing to hear  

 

I also had the "fun" of driving with the sun in my eyes, on some pretty "fast" 40-50Mph roads, I don't think the ergonomics of the Pug 308 suit me very well, and this was a prime example, I like to sit quite far forwards in it, but it means when i put the sun visor down it means I cant see shit since its directly over my eyes!

so I sort have to have it at a junty 45 degree angle with it almost hitting my forehead and even then its not very good LOL

I also got stuck in some particularly dense stop start traffic on the way to the parking lot of choice and I was thinking to myself by the time we get there we aint going to have enough time to actually do the maneuvers, but hey at least the stop start traffic is good practice for my clutch control  

but yeah I think this lesson went particularly well  

next lesson is booked for tuesday

[Eyersey1234]

Good to hear your lesson went well LBF

[Mrs6C]

Sounds like you are doing well, which is brilliant! Glad you are gaining more confidence to make your own driving decisions. It becomes habit after a while. The asking for feedback though is all part of getting to that stage, so it was fair enough to include in the process to get you to that point.

After passing your test, I'd suggest you get into the habit of reversing into parking spaces and driving forwards out of them wherever possible, rather than the other way round. While visibility is worse (you are at the wrong end of the car and having to look over your shoulder so not always a full span of sightline) manoeuvrability is better in reverse with a front steering car. Backing into a known space that you have already observed to be clear is less likely to present obstacles than backing out of it from between parked cars into a thoroughfare, possibly full of people walking as well as moving cars.

Next time I collect you from Milton Keynes station, see how the drop-off parking area, with its 'nose in' diagonal bays, is rubbish! The only way anyone can see what's coming around the corner as they are obliged to reverse out into the oncoming traffic is by watching the reflection in the perspex wall of the bus bay behind... bonkers!

[LightBulbFun]

 

4 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Good to hear your lesson went well LBF

 

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Sounds like you are doing well, which is brilliant! Glad you are gaining more confidence to make your own driving decisions. It becomes habit after a while. The asking for feedback though is all part of getting to that stage, so it was fair enough to include in the process to get you to that point.

 

Thanks 

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

After passing your test, I'd suggest you get into the habit of reversing into parking spaces and driving forwards out of them wherever possible, rather than the other way round. While visibility is worse (you are at the wrong end of the car and having to look over your shoulder so not always a full span of sightline) manoeuvrability is better in reverse with a front steering car. Backing into a known space that you have already observed to be clear is less likely to present obstacles than backing out of it from between parked cars into a thoroughfare, possibly full of people walking as well as moving cars.

 

indeed I plan to   my mum also recommend the same as you did, and if you noticed at the FoD I have tended to always reverse REV into her parking spot  

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Next time I collect you from Milton Keynes station, see how the drop-off parking area, with its 'nose in' diagonal bays, is rubbish! The only way anyone can see what's coming around the corner as they are obliged to reverse out into the oncoming traffic is by watching the reflection in the perspex wall of the bus bay behind... bonkers!

indeed I remember someone else here complaining about them too, maybe zel? or maybe it was you elsewhere and im just not remembering things correctly!

reminds me of one of the questions in my theory test studying (that I also think is in a real theory test, if im reading things correctly all these theory test questions iv studied and practiced are real questions that may pop up in a real theory test)

is that if your at a particularly busy junction at a high street and its hard to see traffic, what do you do? and the correct answer is use the reflections in the shop windows to help you see other traffic

and I remember when I first encountered this question, I thought to myself yeah that seems like the common sense thing to do, but I knew the government etc don't do common sense so I picked another answer LOL, which obviously was wrong, and I was quite surprised to see the use reflections was the right one! 

[Eyersey1234]

I found some of the theory test questions had more than one possible answer even though they were only looking for one, and some had completely ridiculous answers, one that springs to mind is what should you do with a used car battery, one option was Bury it in the garden. 

[LightBulbFun]

21 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I found some of the theory test questions had more than one possible answer even though they were only looking for one, and some had completely ridiculous answers, one that springs to mind is what should you do with a used car battery, one option was Bury it in the garden. 

aye there are a number of ridiculous possible answers that have popped up during my revision etc LOL 

although id not put past someone to try and bury a battery in their garden, pretty sure people have buried whole cars before! LOL

[LightBulbFun]

so this is very interesting! cc @quicksilver and @Datsuncog

I was just doing some idle reg bashing, and I got reminded that LOI6831, was the only NI AC Model 70 to return "AC (ELECTRIC)" (most just return "AC" or "A C") and I also noticed that compared LOI6835 which was registered 1/3/1976, LOI6831 was registered on the 3rd of the 3rd 1978!

so I thought to myself, this is not actually british registried is it?, so I shoved it into the DVLA checker

and low and behold! it shows up!, keeping in mind that none of the other NI Cars show up on the DVLA checker (they only show up on my 3rd party tools etc)

so this looks like that a NI Model 70 could keep its NI Registration mark, even once somehow moved to england?

but that still leaves the mystery of VNB590S, since if it was Ex NI car, then what happened to its reg plate etc!

(hence why I futher think, that it was meant to be a NI car that just was never sent over/registried at the time so had to be registered at/by heywood)

of course there is the question of how did LOI6831 end up back in england, but maybe just the keeper/user decided to move to england and just simply drove it home!

so they would of had to have registered it with the DVLC

 

edit: just to be sure I went through every AC and Invacar Model 70 I have documented with a NI reg plate, and as I thought apart from LOI6831, none show up on the DVLA checker at all

[LightBulbFun]

so heres an interesting little episode 

I was doing a bit more research on, where the hell does a Model 70 and such like fall in today's worlds of mobility scooters and such like

and I found the INF210 and INF211 documents which are DVLA guides on how to register your mobility scooter

and in there there's this little interesting snippet

because with a normal car, if its taxed disabled you have to either be disabled or you have to change the tax class back to its normal tax class, but I wonder if this not the case for mobility scooters if its not also not the case for old school invalid vehicles?

because as mentioned previously both mobility scooters and and old school invalid vehicles like the Model 70 are both classed as "invalid vehicle" on the V5,

the only thing on REV's V5 for example that indicates at all that she is not mobility scooter, is her revenue weight of 413Kg, (and not every Invalid vehicle has this listed even, I know XWC468F and TPE376S dont have their revenue weight listed on their V5s for example)

so I was wonder if you could just tax a Model 70 or such, and not have to worry about changing the tax class etc, as im curious just from a how does the DVLA handle such vehicles POV, if you will get a letter saying "oi m8 where's your insurance" or not or if they will ask for a disabled exemption certificate

 

 

so I decided to do do a little experiment, and that was to try and tax REV, and just see what if anything happens, because as mentioned im just curious from academic POV what will happen, im not trying to do anything nefarious here i'm just I want to figure out just exactly where the Model 70 sits within the DVLA if that makes sense!

and If I did  get a letter saying where's your insurance etc, its easy enough for me to just SORN her again etc

(as mentioned previously according to the RTA of 1988, im pretty sure REV counts as a car so will definitely need insurance there's no argument about that, dont worry im not planning on running around with no insurance!  but it would be interesting to see if the DVLA will pick up on that or not!)

one of the things that makes me think that you can just tax a Model 70 under disabled regardless, is what if you were a collector of mobility scooters, if you wanted to change the tax class from disabled, what the hell would you change it to!?

and this is where it gets interesting, once I get past the check vehicle details and choosing the start date, bit etc

it complains about the lack of an MOT certificate, now mobility scooters don't need an MOT, so it does look like that the DVLA may actually look at the revenue weight on the V5

(since REV by virtue of her weight is classed as a car by the RTA etc she would need an MOT unless exempt via historic tax class etc im pretty sure) 

its either that or the DVLA system is broken and some poor OAP is going to think his mobility scooter needs an MOT next time he goes to tax it!

 

I do recall @egg managing to get further with XWC, (he managed to get to a  page displaying £0.00 IIRC which I never got to)  and as mentioned there's no revenue weight listed on XWCs V5, so unless the page layout/system has changed since then, perhaps the DVLA thought it was a mobility scooter and was letting him tax it?

if thats the case, that very much points to the fact the DVLA does look at revenue weight, (if its there!) so still does have proper provisions/systems in place to handle old school invalid vehicles like the Model 70 etc  

 

and this may also explain why REVs previous owner, got a nasty letter about no insurance, when some other part of the DVLA thought it was a mobility scooter, un SORNed her and Taxed her instead without him knowing! (because the other part of the DVLA that would of known what they where doing, would of seen REVs revenue weight saw she was taxed suddenly and gone oi you need insurance!)

[Jikovron]

How heavy are these unladen, I was perusing my diahatsu V5 the other day and it has a revenue weight listed at 1200kg and a gross train of 1800kg, which going off the plate is the max laden weight etc, the car is I only 740kg with nothing in so I gather a M70 is possibly ~ 330kg unladen and maybe 300ish without fluids allowing a standard driver unit of 68kg?