invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Wouldn't Google maps help you find the name of that test centre?

it might, but I rather double check with my instructor, its not like I have to wait another 3 weeks before booking it  

hopefully ill be able to book it tomorrow after my lesson, once I finally have all the details I need! (tbh I should of seen this bit coming as it was the same for when I booked my theory, but the location of my theory test didn't really matter)

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Such a pity you can't do the practical test in an Invacar..... or can you!?

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, Tadhg Tiogar said:

Such a pity you can't do the practical test in an Invacar..... or can you!?

LOL, sadly not, not if I want a full category B licence anyway, which I do want

there is still is the question of what is that status of Invacars/single seaters and L plates/provisional licence holders

because the rules are that you must have a full licence holder with you in the car etc

but I know back in the day at least there was some sort of rule that if a vehicle only officially had 1 seat then a person could drive it on L plates on their own (since there would be no where for a full licence holder to sit)

and apparently some commercial vehicles where made with 1 seat for this reason

and I have plenty of pictures of Invalid vehicles on L plates, so it was a thing at some point in time

but im not sure how it all works out in today's world 

(mind im mostly just curious on figuring this out from an academic POV, because even ignoring the fact REV is not road worthy yet, finding an insurer that will touch me with a full licence is going to be hard enough I doubt anyone would touch me with a 50ft barge pole on a provisional!)

but on the note of insurance, I checked with Simon, and he says he has his Tippen Delta insured via adrian flux, and was not asked about having another car on a regular policy or what have you, so thats a good sign.

[LightBulbFun]

had some interesting developments on the Mk12 front

I was talking to stuart about the whole mess that the E Reg Mk12's on the DVLA are, and he mentioned Oh THK176E thats a prototype, with its blue and white colour scheme, and went on to say that as far as he knew All production Mk12c's had the all-over light blue-green colour scheme

which was interesting because I for some reason thought that early Mk12c's had the blue and white scheme then transitioned to the allover blue scheme pretty quickly

especially as I know Simon of the ICR has a Mk12c with the blue and white colour scheme, but then obviously came the question, is Simons Mk12c really a Mk12c, or did someone at some point in time switch some chassis plates around

so I asked simon to check/grab some pictures of the front wheel/hub setup as the defining feature of the Mk12c was the addition of a front hydraulic brake  (thats right AFAIK previous Mk12's only had braking on the rear wheels LOL)

and simon said he could not see any brake cylinder, so I thought ahh just a case of AR shenanigans swapping plates around and it must be a Mk12B or such then

but then the actual Photos arrived, im pretty sure I can see what looks like a brake line going into a brake flexi to the front hub, so perhaps it is a Mk12c after all, and then indeed the early ones where blue and white?

(I did mention to simon after seeing this photo, that the brake cylinder if it had one would be on the other side of the hub and would require wheel removal to photograph)

@egg it would be interesting to know how the above compares to XWC468F since we know she is a Mk12c for sure  

 

on the THK176E front, I do wonder about that one, because I do know THK101E-THK200E is a block, so I wonder is THK176E a prototype Mk12c in a block of Mk12B's or is it actually just an early production Mk12C in a block of early Mk12C's, or is it actually just a regular Mk12B they used for photos because externally the Mk12c and Mk12b look the same AFAIK)

 

[Six-cylinder]

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

haha thats very cool  

props to whoever made that its a very good job, even got the transparency behind the windows!  

we just need to recreate it IRL now (would done so at the FoD if REV had not snapped her throttle cable!)

 

 

reminds me, have plates for Dolly been ordered up or are you waiting until she is closer to being road worthy ? I would personally go with the die pressed ally plates as shown at the bottom of the page as that's what Dolly would of had from the factory, but obviously its not my car so you can do what you want regarding plates, just voicing my personal opinion  

https://www.tippersvintageplates.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/tippers?opendocument&part=4

[Six-cylinder]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

props to whoever made that its a very good job, even got the transparency behind the windows!  

we just need to recreate it IRL now (would done so at the FoD if REV had not snapped her throttle cable!)

reminds me, have plates for Dolly been ordered up or are you waiting until she is closer to being road worthy ? I would personally go with the die pressed ally plates as shown at the bottom of the page as that's what Dolly would of had from the factory, but obviously its not my car so you can do what you want regarding plates, just voicing my personal opinion  

https://www.tippersvintageplates.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/tippers?opendocument&part=4

I put this together using Photoshop from a photograph of the Invacars in our field and the Subbuteo background I copied from the internet. The Invacars are copied and cut out of the photo and placed individually in layers over the background. I find the auto cut tools do not work that well so I grab the invacars and a bit of background then erase the background using a tool that has a soft edge so they do not look too cut and planted. The window areas are erased, if there is nothing there it is harsh so then in a new layer I use the brush tool to paint over it, but set the opacity so you can still see the new background. It is a shame I don't really have an artist’s eye because I have learn to use the tool, but will only ever produce reasonable results. You should give it a go with your technical skill I am sure you would soon master it to at least my level.

It was a shame we did not manage to have the 3 Inavacars on site lined up watching a live football match. Maybe this summer.

I ordered a set of standard Perspex plates for Dolly and then there was talk about correct plates so I asked Mrs6C if she wanted me to order particular plates, but she said she would wait until it was running.

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

I put this together using Photoshop from a photograph of the Invacars in our field and the Subbuteo background I copied from the internet. The Invacars are copied and cut out of the photo and placed individually in layers over the background. I find the auto cut tools do not work that well so I grab the invacars and a bit of background then erase the background using a tool that has a soft edge so they do not look too cut and planted. The window areas are erased, if there is nothing there it is harsh so then in a new layer I use the brush tool to paint over it, but set the opacity so you can still see the new background. It is a shame I don't really have an artist’s eye because I have learn to use the tool, but will only ever produce reasonable results. You should give it a go with technical skill I am sure you would soon master it to at least my level.

 

oh very cool! its very well done to my eye  

31 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

It was a shame we did not manage to have the 3 Inavacars on site lined up watching a live football match. Maybe this summer.

 

indeed hopefully this summer as you say, we might even have 4, since I think @dollywobbler will be back in the UK by then, and hopefully TWC will return to the road  (and hopefully TPA will too!) 

31 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

I ordered a set of standard Perspex plates for Dolly and then there was talk about correct plates so I asked Mrs6C if she wanted me to order particular plates, but she said she would wait until it was running.

ah cool, sounds like a plan  

 

BTW speaking of REV and dolly, one thing I noticed that even before all the wheel swapping at the FoD, it looks like REV and dolly had shared wheels many years earlier

because you can see Dolly has a black painted wheel in this picture for example, (and REV has/had 2 silver wheels)

but if you look at this excerpt of REV from her movie role in 2002 you can see she also has a black painted wheel (with a hubcap in place)

just one of those small things I noticed  

 

[High Jetter]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 im pretty sure I can see what looks like a brake line going into a brake flexi to the front hub, 

Yep, sure looks like a brake pipe and flexi to me.

[egg]

Here's my front wheel (looks in better nick than Simon's ?

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

Here's my front wheel (looks in better nick than Simon's ?

ah awesome just what I was hoping for! indeed looks like pretty much the same setup (I do notice on simon's car the flexi goes to the top of the hub rather then the bottom, but the main thing is they both clearly have front brakes)

indeed simons Mk12c (and sadly all of his Mk12's) are sadly, in very poor shape, even the dummy door on his Mk12c is off the car, while I have seen plenty of Mk12's missing doors I have never seen one lose the dummy door! (he said he wants to get it going for 2020, thats an ambitious task! given the state of it)

I was going to say was missing, But I spotted it behind the car in one of his photos   (so im not sure if it has fallen off or he removed it for some reason)

(side note simon said while he has some doors, he does not have any spare sadly, but is happy to have a pattern made from one)

[LightBulbFun]

had my 23rd lesson yesterday

a fairly typical lesson, but we Did manage to get all 3 maneuvers in this time!  (so we must of made good time through the London traffic)

although I will admit I made a bit of a dog's breakfast of the parallel parking (its time this like this I do wish I had a car here where I could just spend a day with mum, practicing parallel parking or such in the dead end here, maybe at some point, if parallel parking or such continues to be an issue ill ask my instructor, if we can spend a lesson just practicing parallel parking or something such)

 

I have also booked my practical in yesterday finally  , as I finally got all the details I needed from my instructor, although the test center did not have any dates available (at least not around the date I shoved in, I stuck the 24th of next month in, since I was told to just give it any date, and I figured a month should give me enough time to work out any niggles I have)

so its been stuck on hold according to the DVSA which apparently means they will try and find a slot around about the date I have chosen, but if not they will refund me

I dont mind so much actually, as i means I have no exact date or such to get worried about if ill be ready or not in time etc, but I can say its been booked LOL and I do have a reference number etc, so I can now shuffle it around, should I either be ready earlier or need a bit more time  

next lesson is scheduled for tuesday

[LightBulbFun]

returning back to the Model 70 Mirror mumblings, @OliD-E kindly checked under TPE376S's front wings to check whether not there looked to have been any wing mounted mirrors at some point, and he could not find any evidence 

so its looking like the last of the Model 70's came from the factory with door mounted mirrors, I do still hope in time I can unearth an early photo of a very late model 70 (although as mentioned I have shots of UOI4719 from 1980 with door mounted mirrors and UOI would've only been about 2 years old then)

I think its pretty safe to say that the late Model 70's came with factory fitted door mounted mirrors, but it would be interesting to figure out just when that change occurred (and also the change from Single to dual mounted wing mirrors) and id still like to find a couple more early period shots to verify things

 

he also unearthed these pictures from somewhere, Cruise control for a Model 70! (mind, REV already has that via a sticky throttle cable  )  its a shame the pictures are not higher resolution, id love to see if theres any details on the Model 70 shown

          

goes well with the CB Radio thing I unearthed a few pages back  

 

On 1/13/2020 at 1:43 AM, LightBulbFun said:

came across a familure looking Model 67 in a fun article on page 9 and 10 of this PDF https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-CB-Radio/CB-World/CBWorld_August1981.pdf

 

 

I do wonder what the DHSS thought about people modifying their Invalid vehicles! or what, if you just finished modding your car, only for the DHSS to take it back and issue you another or something for one reason or another!

 

 

 

On 1/23/2020 at 7:52 AM, junkyarddog said:

Awaiting the standard Invacar post in 3...2...1!

 

this comment from the rear engined thread, got me thinking, I wonder what invalid vehicles where NOT rear engined, and it occurred to me that the earliest Invacars (Model 12 and Model 19) where technically mid engined I think, since the engine was ahead of the rear wheels

(although somewhat lopsided!, although you could counter that by mounting a second engine on the other side maybe? sounds like something Derry preston cobb would end up having!)

also got me wondering, the invacar badge normally says 

"Thundersley"

"INVACAR"

"Essex"

as seen here

but Invacar did not always reside at Thundersley so I wonder what the badge said before that?

 

and one finally during all of this I was looking at the Invacar advert from 1976

 

and I was looking closely at NVW213P, and I noticed its head liner is not the normal white wooly type that Model 70's came with as seen here on VES108S (XEV88S) (not sure if this was mounted directly to the fibreglass or if it had some sort of backing board)

while REV, and Dolly have a dark fabric headliner mounted on a backing board of some kind, I was pretty sure that they where later replacements when the original headlining failed

as I know @dollywobbler fitted TWC with the same headliner, and his was dated 1997

so I wonder what NVW's headliner is about, is it a 3rd type I have not come across, or perhaps the type in REV/Dolly do date back to production, and they just alternated between the 2 or something such?

also been trying to look at NVW213P's chassis plate and see if it has its "government property" bit blacked out like it is on REV,

as I have wondered if NVW213P was a private Model 70, or just a random one they plucked off the production line to use in the advert

sadly the scan/resolution of the picture is not high enough for me to say for sure, and NVW213P does not show up on the DVLA so i cant pull its chassis number sadly

EDIT: actually just remembered I have a way of figuring this out!, and looking at the surrounding chassis numbers of NVW212P and NVW215P  it does not look like NVW213P was a private example

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

Scootacar fibreglass moulds. Just add a villiers....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/scootacar-mk1-moulds/184146680381?hash=item2adfff5a3d:g:3dkAAOSwo-5eLZrD

im curious how you would use that?

I always pictured a fibreglass mould as a block/sheet of some material with the shape carved/formed into it, then you would put the gel coat down on the inside face and, then lay up the fibreglass on top of the gel coat etc

but the above mould looks already like a completed bodyshell almost, and if you tried to lay it up on the outside the gel coat would end up on the wrong side, so im curious how it would of been used

unless its opened up and layed up on the inside? (it does looks like it splits down the middle)

[Mr Pastry]

You bolt it together,  lay it up from the inside starting with the gel coat, then when cured, unbolt to get the moulding out.  Loads of fun being inside there with a bucket of wet resin.

[LightBulbFun]

4 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

You bolt it together,  lay it up from the inside starting with the gel coat, then when cured, unbolt to get the moulding out.  Loads of fun being inside there with a bucket of wet resin.

ah interesting  (of course! you cant lay it up with it opened up otherwise the finished product would be in 2 halfs/have a giant seam down the middle!)

would something on a production line like the Model 70 also be laid up in this method? or would they have the moulds upside down or such with someone looking into them with a brush/spray gun or what have you?

Im wondering, as I imagine standing inside a mold manually brushing everything on etc would be quite tiresome after a while, especially like the roof etc!

[keef]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

he also unearthed these pictures from somewhere, Cruise control for a Model 70! (mind, REV already has that via a sticky throttle cable  )  its a shame the pictures are not higher resolution, id love to see if theres any details on the Model 70 shown

Facebook Maxi Group.

I'll ask for a high res image if you aren't on FB, if you like?

 

[Mr Pastry]

40 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah interesting  (of course! you cant lay it up with it opened up otherwise the finished product would be in 2 halfs/have a giant seam down the middle!)

would something on a production line like the Model 70 also be laid up in this method? or would they have the moulds upside down or such with someone looking into them with a brush/spray gun or what have you?

Im wondering, as I imagine standing inside a mold manually brushing everything on etc would be quite tiresome after a while, especially like the roof etc!

Usually on a small scale it would all be done by hand.  There is a spraying process which would be quicker but obvs needs more equipment - AC might have had that facility but I doubt if Invacar would.  As you may have realised the mould lines on the mod 70 indicate where the joins in the mould were - easier/cheaper to make a feature of them than to rub them down flush afterwards.  Of course you turn the moulds whichever way  is convenient for laying-up.

There is just a chance that  the mod 70 moulds are still around somewhere...…..

[LightBulbFun]

6 minutes ago, keef said:

Facebook Maxi Group.

I'll ask for a high res image if you aren't on FB, if you like?

 

found the group, but cant find the pictures, so if could ask for me that would be very much appricated  

I see someone on there also asked about the whole not taxed for on road use thing!,

@quicksilver I see your comment about how "not taxed for on road use" vehicles, used to show up as taxed with a renewal date in the middle of the month do you happen to have any screenshots or such of this or know when it changed from that to showing not taxed for on road use? since I started this thread at least, they have always shown as not taxed for on road use, although as mentioned I did notice on some that the tax status in the text fields would change from time to time from tax not due, to taxed and due and back to taxed, but others would show up as not taxed and never changed 

im curious what the "not taxed" not taxed for on road use vehicles would have shown up as, when supposedly not taxed for on road use vehicles would show up as taxed but ending mid month?

(sadly since the V5c DVLA checker update, not taxed for on road use vehicles, just say that in the text field too, so theres no way to check this "phantom" tax status anymore i dont think)

 

On 10/17/2019 at 6:30 PM, LightBulbFun said:

so heres an interesting thing I noticed on the whole

"Not taxed for on road use"

 

I was doing some idle googling, and came across XPD805 a Stanley Argson Deluxe from the manchester museum of transport

 

and I went to shove its reg number into the DVLA to see if  it was on there/what it came back as 

and pleasingly it did show up and I noticed it was "not taxed for on road use"

where on closer inspection I noticed it said "Vehicle status: Tax and due" as if its tax is about to expire

I never noticed this before, and I wondered, are all "not taxed for on road use" vehicles like that

so I checked a few others...

YVX206L was tax not due when I took this screenshot a few months back

but checking it again today shows it as Taxed and due

 

1940PE comes back as tax not due

LVX293J was Tax not due a few months ago and is still tax not due today

 

 

 

but TEV673N is down as Not taxed, and is still down as not taxed

 

its very interesting to note that I can pull the chassis numbers (or could until the tools broke)

of all these "not taxed for on road use" invalid vehicles

except for TEV673N, which noticeably is the only one thats down as "not taxed"

its interesting the different "vehicle statuses" despite them all being "not taxed for on road use"

I still wonder "not taxed for on road use" means exactly, especially after noticing the different vehicle statuses

 

(side note I noticed a lot earlier invalid carriages that do still show up on the DVLA are down as not taxed for on road use)

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Usually on a small scale it would all be done by hand.  There is a spraying process which would be quicker but obvs needs more equipment - AC might have had that facility but I doubt if Invacar would.  As you may have realised the mould lines on the mod 70 indicate where the joins in the mould were - easier/cheaper to make a feature of them than to rub them down flush afterwards.

There is just a chance that  the mod 70 moulds are still around somewhere...…..

very interesting  

indeed Invacar Model 70's where done using a wet lay up process where as AC used a dry process

 

On 10/11/2019 at 6:27 PM, Mrs6C said:

This post in the Greeves-Riders forum mentions it as "Greeves used wet layup for the bodies and AC sprayed chopped mat on theirs."

https://www.greeves-riders.org.uk/forums/forum/general-forums/general-greeves-chat/6573-invacars

I can't remember now which way round was described to me...

I know that AC Model 70's have a much more "raw" rough surface texture to them where there is no gel coat

where as Invacar Model 70's have a much more mottled "smoother" finish where there is no gel coat

 

indeed I do wonder if Model 70 moulds still exist somewhere, someone on facebook mentioned seeing them show up for sale once, but did not elaborate further sadly, so who knows if its true or what!

it would be amazing, and very handy if they do survive somewhere, given the number of Model 70's I know of needing new bodys or at least repair sections!

 

would the type of layup process affect the shape of the mould lines, or would that be down to the type/shape of the moulds themselves?

as previously mentioned, Invacar Model 70's have pointy mould lines, where as the mould lines on the AC Model 70 are more rounded (at least this is true for 1975ish+ Invacars, I sadly don't have reliable enough sample size of older Invacar Model 70's to tell what mould lines they had)

[keef]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/139258426610027?view=permalink&id=693286387873892 

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, keef said:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/139258426610027?view=permalink&id=693286387873892 

ah thats a private group, and I sadly cant see whats in that link,

you will have to post a screenshot or such  (or if its a picture, copy and paste it here ) 

[keef]

Just now, LightBulbFun said:

ah thats a private group, and I sadly cant see whats in that link,

you will have to post a screenshot or such!

I'll post the image as/when/if Chris replies.

[mrbenn]

On 1/25/2020 at 12:05 PM, LightBulbFun said:

I have also booked my practical in yesterday finally

Good news, exciting stuff!

[keef]

Any help?

 

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

I know that AC Model 70's have a much more "raw" rough surface texture to them where there is no gel coat

where as Invacar Model 70's have a much more mottled "smoother" finish where there is no gel coat

That figures - spraying process might well be quite rough on the inside whereas hand layup would finish with a layer of mat or tissue, rolled in by hand.

I'm not an expert on this, but what I think would have happened with the mould lines is this.  When the moulds were new, the sections would have had completely flush joints.  These would have shown up on the finished panel as a very thin raised line (like you see  on parts of Airfix kits) which could have been flatted down quite easily.  With normal wear and tear on the moulds, this line would have become more prominent and unsightly, until the best way to deal with it was to make a feature of it, and cut a groove in the mould along the joint line.  This would have emerged on the panel as your mould line - and clearly its profile would depend on how the groove was cut and who did it - it was all skilled hand work so different sets of moulds (there would have been more than one set) would not have been exactly the same.    Hence your rounded and pointy mould lines.

[keef]

And this? :-

[LightBulbFun]

28 minutes ago, keef said:

Any help?

 

ah is thats whats in your link? if so I have seen that ihere  and is what I was referring to above when I tagged @quicksilver

or is whats in your link something else?

20 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

That figures - spraying process might well be quite rough on the inside whereas hand layup would finish with a layer of mat or tissue, rolled in by hand.

I'm not an expert on this, but what I think would have happened with the mould lines is this.  When the moulds were new, the sections would have had completely flush joints.  These would have shown up on the finished panel as a very thin raised line (like you see  on parts of Airfix kits) which could have been flatted down quite easily.  With normal wear and tear on the moulds, this line would have become more prominent and unsightly, until the best way to deal with it was to make a feature of it, and cut a groove in the mould along the joint line.  This would have emerged on the panel as your mould line - and clearly its profile would depend on how the groove was cut and who did it - it was all skilled hand work so different sets of moulds (there would have been more than one set) would not have been exactly the same.    Hence your rounded and pointy mould lines.

ah interesting  

all AC Model 70's and Model 67's for that matter, im pretty sure had the same mould line shape, so im guessing who ever set those moulds up, did them all in one go, or had a way of doing it so all the lines looked the same  

its interesting to note that the Model 67 AC Acedes Mk14 had mould lines down the front, but by the Mk15 these mould lines had gone

I have wondered if, they actually changed the moulds to eliminate them, or if they always existed, but where ground flush or something such? (I would say a way to tell might be look from behind, but since the gel coat would of gone down first plus several layers of fibreglass, the mould line by the other side might of been naturally smoothed out)

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, keef said:

And this? :-

ah not seen that one before  

but thats a recent screen shot, I was asking Quicksilver, if he had any older screen shots from when the DVLA supposedly reported things differently  

[Mrs6C]

The chap selling the moulds on eBay is Alan Evans who set up Bamby Cars Ltd in Hull and produced this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamby_Cars

He set up Bambycars Limited with his daughter Emma later on in 2011 and seems to do a range of manufacturing and restoration of small fibreglass cars and replicars. The only Wikipedia entry I could find on this was the German one, but there is photo on it of his Peel 50 replicar:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambycars

A few years ago he was restoring a Raleigh Safety Seven:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/1469406@N21/discuss/72157624797560079/

Who knows, he might be the ideal chap to do a new set of moulds and make panels for the Model 70, if there was enough of a commercial demand.

Nearer to home, @Bfg is a guru on all things fibreglass and moulding and could perhaps advise further on how to do it on a more DIY basis.

The Bond Equipe and Bond 850 were made using fibreglass laid up by hand on gelcoat in big moulds, which were held in wooden frames:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/8271384652/in/album-72157632170950728/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/8270320373/in/album-72157632170950728/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/8286348626/in/album-72157632170950728/