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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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7 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

Amazing to think that Reliant were able to get the Robin etc to the same weight,yet have a hefty steel chassis,four seats,three doors,leaf springs,and all the other stuff.

from what iv been told and seen

the Model 70 chassis is very substantial and overbuilt compared to most other cars of similar size/class which may go some way to explaining why as just a single seater it weighs almost as much as a Reliant robin :) 

which combined with some magical underseal of some kind means even after decades of abuse and 15 years sitting in a damp field with no wheels, you dont have to worry about rust as TPA demonstrated :)

the curious thing is, the workshop manual lists the weight as 896LBS which is 406Kg, but the Pre Rollover bar Model 70s have 410Kg on their V5 and the Rollover bar 1976 Model 70's have 413Kg

I do wonder if the pre rollover bar Model 70's actually weight 406Kg and they just say 410Kg, becuase 410kg is the cut off point in the 1988 RTA for a 3 wheeled invalid carriage being classed as a "Motor Cycle" rather then a "Motor Car" (and if it weighs 254Kg or less then its an "invalid carriage" )

the Model 70 also had fairly advanced all round independant coil over suspention with Spax gas adjustable shocks, which I imagine is part of the reason the Model 70 handles much better then most people expect it to :) (that and the good weight distrubution afforded by a rear mounted Flat twin egnine with a central driving postion)

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Just been investigating the whole dash warning lights thing

and it looks like REV451R and MPD553P might just be odd ones out, I guess at some point both users/owners/repaiers had the same idea on how the warning lights should be arranged (as to be fair green as a low oil pressure tail tale is not a very good idea!)

because both Dolly (OPH868R) and VES108S (XEV88S) which are later then MPD/REV

have the same warning light layout as found on TWC, TPA and other Model 70's and in the workshop manual

(as a side note I noticed VES has the same Random screw by the dash light that REV does, I will have to have a rumage around under the dash of REV and see what thats for at some point (theres a same looking screw on the top of the dash as well so they might be connected) I have also asked fraser again if he knows what the Random toggle switch is for :) )

57538070_2404273622939467_6824781442266955776_n.jpg

 

image.thumb.png.6743464b3c9475bc6446c825df2988dc.png

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On 7/27/2019 at 1:59 PM, LightBulbFun said:

@OliD-E sent me this photo, and I have been trying to figure out just what exactly happened LOL because the Ford escort has a great big dent on the front side, but the Model 70 crashed into the rear, and then theres the ladder going to one of the houses...

 

image.thumb.png.33280f7490393e1ff68cc36022e979e6.png

ford has been untaxed since 1988 so I wonder if thats when the incident happened or if the ford was repaired and used for a while longer (im inclined to say 1988 was when the crash happened as the ford  looks pretty crumpled to me so I dont see it being used afterwards but im not an expert when it comes to crash damage!)

Model 70 looks relatively intact all things considered tho especially if it did crash into the front side of the ford! :)

Look at the clothes. Flares in particular, and one guy has a Shaft Afro. This  is not 1988, maybe 1978.

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Yeah I agree styles are more 70s then 80s, I guess the ford was repaired and used for a while after the incident, I still wonder what caused the big dent I guess maybe there was a 3rd car involved that was removed from the scene/out of shot by the time the photo was taken, but then what caused the Model 70 to crash into the rear

just a rather peculiar scene

I wonder if the Model 70 in the picture  is any of these 2 given the early in their life tax expiery :)

Screenshot 2019-04-06 at 18.48.50.png

 

image (23).png

(mind the Model 70 from that angle does not look written off to me a new front body section and it would be good again)

it is on 10 inch wheels so we Know its a post June/July 1974 Model 70

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13 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Given this is a rta, involving the emergency services, there'll be a record of it somewhere. 

FOIA?

probably, i wont go that far I got more important invacar things to chase up there

but yeah posted it just on the off chance if any shitters had seen the picture before and knew what exactly happened

(mind I imagine every shitter has already posted all the invacar pictures they know of in this thread for me to oogle over :mrgreen: )

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1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

(mind I imagine every shitter has already posted all the invacar pictures they know of in this thread for me to oogle over :mrgreen: )

Ha, ha, don't bet on that. I posted that pic on Wobblers thread of one in Portsmouth just by accident. I've thousands of bus pics and quite often there's something interesting in the background, my last post on the background thread was a DS ambulance in London. 

Must really have a look at what I have, before global warming causes the planet to freeze over!!!

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5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah I agree styles are more 70s then 80s, I guess the ford was repaired and used for a while after the incident, I still wonder what caused the big dent I guess maybe there was a 3rd car involved that was removed from the scene/out of shot by the time the photo was taken, but then what caused the Model 70 to crash into the rear

Possibly this happened: the Escort turned right from the side road in the right-hand side foreground of the picture, in a hurry to get out in front of the (perceived!) slow invalid carriage approaching the junction along the main road from the left. The Escort driver misjudged it and was hit side-on by a car coming from right to left on the main road, which spun the Escort around and caused its back corner to thwack the front of the poor Invacar that was making its own way from left to right...

The vehicle that hit the Escort would then be, probably, out of shot to the right, with the front caved in...

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On 7/21/2019 at 9:12 AM, BorniteIdentity said:

(and I’m not totally convinced it’s a part of our social history that we should be super proud of)

this has been something I have been wondering about im curious as to why you think we should not be proud of them?

they were a vehicle specifically designed and built to afford the disabled the freedom of mobility and where leased out by the government for free at no cost to the user

I don't think any other country quite did it like we did! (the closest that comes to mind would be the Soviet Invalidka)

no there not perfect far from it, but at the time they were built, given what else was available I think they did their job very well, especially by the time the Model 70 came along

I don't think there is any other car that was as adaptable to a persons disabilities then the Invacar was, for example by 2003 those that still leased their Model 70 from the government did so because either they just really liked theirs or they had a disability that simply could not be adapted for in a normal car

its a bit like the Routemaster in that regard in that they stayed in service for so long as there just was nothing else suitable for replacing them! (Keep in mind when the invalid vehicle service closed to new applicants in 1976 the government wanted to get rid of all invacars by 1981!)

remember the Invacar was built specifically for the disabled, not as a normal car to then try and be adapted for something it was not built for

(and even if you look at an invacar as a normal car, the Model 70 especially. if you compare it to other small and similarly sized cars of the same time , specifications wise objectively its not actually THAT bad, the biggest detractor being its lack of passenger carrying capability)

 so yeah the above is why I think the invacar is something we as a country should be proud of rather than to be ashamed of

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13 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

I think the Invacar its self is great, it's just societies harsh judgment of the vehicle and it's users which are the fault imho.

 

very much so sadly, I know people wanted a normal car not because their Invacar was unsuitable for them, but just so they weren't singled out on the road because of the way society reacted to disabled people and the invacar in general at the time (just think about the colloquial names they were known as back then!)

also during the 1970s when it "fashionable" to hate on them I personally imagine a lot of the hate came from a vocal minority of users who wanted a normal car for free and had disabilities that did not demand the adaptable capabilities of the invacar so where not the invacars target audience 

I know when the government announced the plan in 1976 to scrap all the invacars by 1981 and replace them with a weekly monetary car allowance 

there was a sudden change in tone and much back peddling, again goes back to what I mentioned earlier about despite the government's plan to scrap all invacars by the 1981, the last Government Invacar was only withdrawn on the 14th of October 2004!

anyways this is getting awfully "political" 

 

 

so have this excerpt from this book https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nzGCBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

image.thumb.png.f2641ee24ec2a73cedd43c471603b154.png

about Derries would be  650cc Model 70 :) I do wonder what happened to it? was it still completed? does anyone know its registration number, im guessing it would of been a private Model 70...

(this tallies with what @dollywobbler said about the folks at Elmsleigh telling him that Derry had a 650cc souped up Model 70, although i dont know if they told Dollywobbler that sadly derry never lived to see it)

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so some may recall in the earlier days of this thread that I spotted this very late AC Acedes Model 57 on a J plate in this video 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-probe-alf-morris-announces-the-recalling-of-the-invacar-1976-online

 

image.png.d30550a115ddac333224903e8bfa1464.png

well I did a bit of DVLA bashing and it looks like it was part of a very small batch of 11 cars from DPF670J to DPF680J (a surprising amount of them do still show up via the DVLA checker despite being Pre Model 70 with DPF 676J being the longest survivor with tax that ran out in march 1988)

curiously enough they are Electric AC Acedes

I do wonder if the Metal AC Acedes's that continued being made after the fibreglass AC Acedes Model 67 was introduced ,where only of the electric type?

because while the Metal Acedes was made in both Petrol and electric form the Fibreglass Acedes was only available in Petrol form but was otherwise superior to the metal AC Acedes, so one wonders why they kept making the Metal AC Acedes otherwise.

(I do wonder if like the Post 1970 Electric Tippen delta if AC Acedes after a certain age where converted older petrol ones?)

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On 12/27/2018 at 7:12 AM, LightBulbFun said:

 

(Edit: interestingly it also comes back as "INVACAR INVALID VEIHCLE" pretty much every other Model 70 I have looked up comes up as INVACAR UNKNOWN (since the model name is never filled out on the V5 from what i can tell), I think a private? owner put that in as other Invacars from the same reg series just display the normal "INVACAR UNKNOWN". also yes they spelt vehicle wrong LOL)

always fun going back through a thread and being able to answer your own questions :) 

I think the body type "INVALID VEHICLE" managed to become WOO848S's Model type as well because of how the early V5s where layed out

image.thumb.png.6ed1a258cc3f5b5c11d84f7b10932e8b.png

as seen here on REV's 1985 V5 there's no separate body type listing, its just "Model/Type:  3 wheel invalid vehicle"

so im guessing at some point invalid vehicle was thought to be WOO848S's Model as well as its body type hence it appearing as the vehicles model on the MOT checker

(as a side note im guessing for Model 70's where wheel plan comes up as not recorded like TPA621M the old V5 would of just said "Model/Type: invalid vehicle" its also very interesting to see just how basic/little info there was on the old V5's compared to todays V5's)

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so I was doing a bit of idle checking of things and mrs6c's and eggs comment about air filters with replaceable elements and this ebay listing https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132904721791

 

reminded me that early Model 70's where fitted with engines that an oil filter that had replacable catridge sort of thing rather then a normal screw on oil filter like you see these days and in later Model 70's

and indeed you can see it so on ATW722L

20170618_143847_resized.thumb.jpg.0c61b21e7bc461722b5f5dd8dd110c2c.jpg

 

vs REV451R for example :) (another picture borrowed from Zel)

image.thumb.png.6a2558ba62e566db941d660d74b0f498.png

 

and given the anomalies I have noticed with TWC I was wondering what did her original engine have (ie the one that DW broke) because I did recall DW mentioning the oil filter differences in an early video on TWC

and indeed checking the videos where you see TWCs original engine you can see the early style cartridge oil filter which tells me that TWCs engine is probably original to TWC725K or is at least from an early Model 70

I did ask @dollywobbler a few months back for the engine number from TWCs original engine to see if it matches whats on TWCs VIN plate

but im still waiting to hear back on that.

 

one thing I need to do is figure out when they changed from the cartridge oil filter to the screw on type

I know TPAs original engine (now in TWC)  has a screw on oil filter, but we are assuming TPA had her original engine when Dollywobbler got TPA

 

 

a side note on all of this, @Mrs6C kindly hunted down the engine number on the engine itself on REV and im happy to say the numbers do match with what's recorded on the VIN/V5 :)

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8 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Just noticed something.

Your V5 states 413.0Kg as the unladen weight.

TPA's one lists 410.0kg...pretty sure KPL's did too from memory.

yep indeed was something I noticed a while back https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-invacar-model-70-acquired-and-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-got-the-v5c-officially-the-registered-keeper-of-rev451r-now/page/45/?tab=comments#comment-1802508

 

its something that changed with later Model 70's VES108S's V5 says 414Kg and XEV71S even lists it on the DVLA checker

Screenshot 2019-05-02 at 13.16.43.png

I think it was something that happened in March 1976 when they introduced the rollover bar

as KPL is a Mark B but says 410Kg on her V5 (I checked that with @OliD-E ) so it was not something that changed with the Mark B, but looks like its something that changed with the introduction of the rollover bar

im surprised given the amount of changes that happened in March 1976 (the Rollover bar, headliner and dash component changes that there never a designated Model 70 Mark C, maybe there is but I have not seen it referenced in any internal documentation like I have the Mark A and Mark B but iv only seen small snippets of internal docs so there might be a word on it somewhere else)

one of the thing  I have been wondering about the 410Kg vs 413Kg is how it affects this LOL

image.png

I think this is the only bit of modern legislation that even vaguely mentions old school invalid vehicles rather than just talking about Modern mobility scooters

curiously enough MHJ104P has the revenue weight down as 403Kg, im not sure if its meant to be 413Kg and there was an OCR fail or something, the MHJ-P Block is just before AC at least introduced the rollover bar in March 1976 starting with the MPD-P block at (which started at MPD477P)

so it could either be 413Kg or 410Kg

 image.thumb.png.7e5941ea1dc317fbecb1166b443f1344.png

 

I know @st185cs owns MHJ22P so perhaps he could tell us what the revenue weight of his Model 70 is I dont see a rollover bar, so it would be interesting to see if MHJ22P is 410Kg or 413Kg! :)

MIYO9uW.jpg

(its funny most Model 70's dont show the Revenue weight on the DVLA checker despite it being listed on the V5 i wonder why that is, and @dollywobbler mentioned the revenue weight vanishing entirely  from his V5 when he changed TWCs body type to Tricycle from invalid vehicle)

and as I mentioned in another post https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-invacar-model-70-acquired-and-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-got-the-v5c-officially-the-registered-keeper-of-rev451r-now/?do=findComment&comment=1848346 the weight for the Model 70 in the workshop manual is down as 406Kg not 410Kg so yeah (but as I mentioned in a earlier post I do wonder if they put 410Kg as that was the maximum they could do before becoming a "motor car" considering we are talking about revenue weight rather then actual weight although general those 2 are the same)

 

 

 

speaking of REV and safety, new marine grade fuel hose has been ordered for her along with a bunch of proper hose clips the plan is to get that fitted on the 10th or 11th at the FoD :)  (still not 100% sure if ill be able to do both days or just 1 day)

I know marine grade might be a bit overkill/pricier than normal fuel hose, but given the quality issues I have heard about with modern car fuel hose, I figured for just a few extra quid I would play it safe and also not have to worry about changing it again in 6 months time when the modern car hose has all perished

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http://forum.retro-rides.org/post/224336/thread

 

Quote

Hows this for a weird one - a good few years ago (late `90s) me and my mate are on the M62 west bound, outside lane, in my mates new-ish Mk3 Fiesta, and this old stager undertakes us on the left in one of those turquoise 3 wheeler Invacars, I figure my mate must be dawdling so I look across at the speedo and the Fiestas doing nearly 95..Cant work that one out to this day

#Iwanttobelieve! :mrgreen:

 

goes well with 

Quote

Then in 1970 came the CVT transmissioned 500cc to 650cc engines with 12 litre sized petrol tanks top speeds 75 - 90 mph for a short distance, (I once overtook a Jag on the A2 in excess of 85 mph & was still accelerating.

from here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ac-invacar-70-1975.341502/#post-11192609

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I have wondered what happened to LPL791P, she was papped back  in the day by an autoshite member https://autoshite.com/topic/254-mcs-shite-spots-oct-09-p6-roverload/?do=findComment&comment=35303

 

P9213518Small.jpg

 

P9213520Small.jpg

IIRC another autoshite member said that when they had a look around the area a while back it was gone

and I have wondered sicne then what happened to this Model 70 was it saved or was it scrapped

well I spotted this a while back

https://www.facebook.com/UKbarnfinds/photos/a.239761752835169/370956346382375/?type=3

image.png.2833115d9d19feaae85b9b5b3a6ecf51.png

I do wonder if its also LPL791P? sadly the ebay link is long dead but from the 1 picture I have from the listing/facebook post things do look very similar to each other

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Hmm had a closer look at things and I noticed LPL791P has an original style rear light

however im pretty sure the barnfinds model 70 has the rounded later replacement rear light

so there not the same Model 70, still leaves the question of what happened to LPL791P and what happened to the ukbarnfinds model 70!

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On 7/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, ZombiePaul said:

Hi,

Sorry for not being a member.
 

I got send these photo's after asking about Charles Lewis's garage in Shrewsbury that did both Citroen and fixed Invacars!!!!
The photos at from Crown Street in Wem, Shropshire, I don't know what year they were taken.

I hope you find them useful.  

67363306_2430024887282319_7579246903699701760_n.jpg

67653120_2430024940615647_4813117910140583936_n.jpg

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Oh hello! sorry I missed your post as when the moderator approves your first few posts they dont get posted as new posts when they are validated but they just get inserted into the thread where you originally commented

curiously enough that garage you mention is where @dollywobbler's 2CV was sold from when she was new :) 

as for the Photograph, not one I have come across so thanks for posting :) the J plate Mk12E indicates that the photos are at least post 1970

KVX770J or KVX710J its not very clear sadly, must be a relatively close relative of JBY503J, the only Mk12 I know of that's roadworthy and actually on the road/driven about its registration used to be LVX250J before it was plate raped

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On 7/27/2019 at 1:59 PM, LightBulbFun said:

@OliD-E sent me this photo, and I have been trying to figure out just what exactly happened LOL because the Ford escort has a great big dent on the front side, but the Model 70 crashed into the rear, and then theres the ladder going to one of the houses...

 

image.thumb.png.33280f7490393e1ff68cc36022e979e6.png

Looking at the clothing I would say that was a picture from the mid 1970s, when the Escort would have been repaired after damage like that due to relative newness.

Virtually all the men pictured look to be wearing flared trousers, which most definitely would not have been the case in 1988!  There’s sideburns, tight jerseys and pointed shirt collars all in evidence as well, these are all signs of a fashionable dude circa 1976.

I imagine the main damage to the Escort was done by another vehicle, the Invacar looks to have embedded its front into the rear wing of the Escort. 

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yeah I think its safe to say it happened in the 70s and that there was a 3rd vehicle involved :)

@Mrs6C explanation makes the most sense so far :)  I just posted the photo originally on the off chance someone may have seen the photo before/known exactly what happened/had more pictures showing the reg plate of the Model 70 :) 

 it just looks quite peculiar from that angle, I guess that's why someone photographed it (because you can see the invacar crashed into the escort, but there's a big dent on the escort that must of been caused by another vehicle but there is no other vehicle in shot)

the fun thing is the Model 70 would have been newer then the Escort! as an L plate Model 70 would have 12 inch wheels where as that model 70 is on 10 inch wheels so its post June/July 1974 :) 

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