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Shiters To Be Banned From Glasgow...Smiles Better


UmBongo

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Agreed. I am also skeptical about it. Sure there is poison in exhaust, and we should look to reduce and eliminate it over time, but people lack perspective. 100 years ago every building had a coal-burning fire in it in winter, if not several; the smoke was so thick that everything was turned black, and people died much younger. There is still stuff to improve but most people could make much bigger improvements to their physical and mental health by binning sugar, alcohol, Facebook, and the TV set...

I agree. I went to Beijing a few years ago. The smog was mad, my asthma was the worst its ever been, but here now, its rare i am badly affected.

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When all of this kicked off again, thank you VW Group, the information available also said that many of the particulates in the air came from vehicle brake dust and tyre wear. It also said that the much loved urban log burner produced significant amounts as well but it seems that the brake dust tyre wear will be there whatever the propulsion of the vehicle and the log burners seem to have been ignored. I do wonder where the exhaust from the, soon to be increased in number, planes flying over parts of London to Heathrow and Gatwick figures in all of this.

 

I can still remember as a lad travelling to Sheffield from Doncaster, well pre motorway so no M18 and M1, and the illustrious town of Rotherham and east Sheffield being so completely covered by smog as to be invisible from the surrounding higher ground a situation/problem that we have off loaded to China etc.

 

Nobody seems particularly bothered about the breathing problems caused by the massive fields of oil seed rape that are grown and which cause people considerable actual distress but that is out in the country so just a hazard of living there I expect.

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The tyre wear / brake dust report was completely discredited.

 

There was one discredited report which came from a vested interest, however it's widely accepted (by those studying these things) that non-exhaust particulates from road vehicles are roughly half of all road vehicle particulates and this figure is expected to rise to ~80% by the early 2020s.

 

Being an EV advocate but repeatedly sitting on any mention of pollution from tyres and the rest discredits you, it's something we should be concentrating on now rather than in 20 years as will probably the case, when so much more damage will have been done.

 

Tyre dust has a poisonous cocktail of nasties, emissions are directly proportional to vehicle mass and power/torque.

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When all of this kicked off again, thank you VW Group, the information available also said that many of the particulates in the air came from vehicle brake dust and tyre wear. It also said that the much loved urban log burner produced significant amounts as well but it seems that the brake dust tyre wear will be there whatever the propulsion of the vehicle and the log burners seem to have been ignored.

 

Nobody seems particularly bothered about the breathing problems caused by the massive fields of oil seed rape that are grown and which cause people considerable actual distress but that is out in the country so just a hazard of living there I expect.

I agree with that wholeheartedly, but pollen doesn't damage your body no matter how unpleasant hayfever is.

 

What is missed by most is the cancer-linked spray pumped into the air by farmers onto their fields, causing uncounted amounts of chronic disease and death.

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I agree with that wholeheartedly, but pollen doesn't damage your body no matter how unpleasant hayfever is.

 

What is missed by most is the cancer-linked spray pumped into the air by farmers onto their fields, causing uncounted amounts of chronic disease and death.

You are right about both the hay fever and the spraying by the farmers especially alongside roads and houses etc. My concern about the pollen is that asthmatics really suffer and have to ingest more than normal amounts of their medication which can have adverse long term effects. Nobody bothers about farming and in many places the oil seed rape grows outside the field boundaries even years after the main crop has long been changed.

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Guest Hooli

Don't bother doing anything about congestion and air pollution then.

 

 

Decreasing congestion would have a positive effect on air quality no?

 

Exactly that. Making journey times longer due to enforcing congestion increases the problem they are pretending to address. Until these schemes exist to reduce pollution rather than just raise tax while killing town centres they'll never do what they are claimed to be for.

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There was one discredited report which came from a vested interest, however it's widely accepted (by those studying these things) that non-exhaust particulates from road vehicles are roughly half of all road vehicle particulates and this figure is expected to rise to ~80% by the early 2020s.

Being an EV advocate but repeatedly sitting on any mention of pollution from tyres and the rest discredits you, it's something we should be concentrating on now rather than in 20 years as will probably the case, when so much more damage will have been done.

Tyre dust has a poisonous cocktail of nasties, emissions are directly proportional to vehicle mass and power/torque.

 

What discredits me?

I don’t understand.

 

I’m simply asking you to point me at the output of those “people who study these things” as i’m sure the “widely accepted” view must have come from actual proper research somewhere.

 

I’m asking you as these people and this research was nowhere to be seen when the initial paper (“EVs don’t pollute quite as much but are, like , really bad in other ways so buy a diesel, yeah!”) was being torn to shreds.

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You are right about both the hay fever and the spraying by the farmers especially alongside roads and houses etc. My concern about the pollen is that asthmatics really suffer and have to ingest more than normal amounts of their medication which can have adverse long term effects. Nobody bothers about farming and in many places the oil seed rape grows outside the field boundaries even years after the main crop has long been changed.

That's a good point regarding the effect of drug suppressants. But asthma and hayfever aren't solely from crops, but trees and grasses and so on. Besides, we can't stop growing food, although pesticide use could be reduced massively, to the point it was used for emergencies only. But big pharma has its vested interests.

 

I developed a theory years ago that it was the dual action of pollution (NOx, VOC, HC) and pollen which made my own reaction to pollens etc more acute, I noticed that camping where pollution was extremely low reduced reactions to pollens after a few days.

 

Pollution we inhale isn't restricted to industry and traffic - levels inside modern homes with their synthetic carpets and upholstery, multitude of plastics, high temperatures, poor ventilation and the nasties damp air creates can be very high.

 

The rise of nano-particulates is rarely mentioned, research is limited but what there is suggests that the smaller the particle, the more harmful.

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There was one discredited report which came from a vested interest, however it's widely accepted (by those studying these things) that non-exhaust particulates from road vehicles are roughly half of all road vehicle particulates and this figure is expected to rise to ~80% by the early 2020s.

Being an EV advocate but repeatedly sitting on any mention of pollution from tyres and the rest discredits you, it's something we should be concentrating on now rather than in 20 years as will probably the case, when so much more damage will have been done.

Tyre dust has a poisonous cocktail of nasties, emissions are directly proportional to vehicle mass and power/torque.

It is difficult to take this seriously just considering the very small volume of material involved - brake pads and tyres are not large, last a very long time, and much of their volume remains intact when they are scrapped. Much of the "dust" which IS generated goes, and stays, on the road.

 

EVs don't really create brake dust at all because regeneration does most of the braking; plenty will go for scrap with original discs and pads on. Where they do get replaced it's generally because the discs have rotted away from lack of use.

 

The whole thing is an anti-EV propaganda piece - it's ludicrous as soon as you think about the detail but serves to implant doubt in peoples' minds so they'll keep on buying petrol...

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What discredits me?

I don’t understand.

I’m simply asking you to point me at the output of those “people who study these things” as i’m sure the “widely accepted” view must have come from actual proper research somewhere.

I’m asking you as these people and this research was nowhere to be seen when the initial paper (“EVs don’t pollute quite as much but are, like , really bad in other ways so buy a diesel, yeah!”) was being torn to shreds.

 

There was one heavily promoted 'report' suggesting EVs were barely better than the ICEv because of non-exhaust particulates, which was quickly discredited by academics because it failed to meet the usual criteria for academic studies. It seems like you're using this report to make it appear non-exhaust emissions aren't a problem.

 

Although the subject is not fully developed, there have been several academic reports over the last couple of decades. I've read plenty of them, isolating one or two can be confusing as results are awkward to interpret due to the complexity of testing and there being no common standards yet.

 

From those I've read, I reasoned that as of a couple of years ago, it was fair to say that exhaust and non-exhaust particulate emissions were somewhere near equal, with the latter growing in proportion. The Environment Minister seems to think this is the case too - https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-05-10/36949.

 

Here's a summary of one report, https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/publication/eur-scientific-and-technical-research-reports/non-exhaust-traffic-related-emissions-brake-and-tyre-wear-pm

 

Google non exhaust pm if you want to dive into the subject

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The thing is, EVs aren't the answer either, emissions are just moved from the tailpipe to elsewhere in the production cycle, including the manufacture of the infrastructure they require. There is no 100% clean way of producing electricity, never, ever will be, because somewhere along the line, the infrastructure to collect & distribute it has to be made somehow. This is a problem that will never, ever go away, large scale deforestation all over the globe doesn't help either, then you look at how villages have expanded to become towns, with the throwing up of cheap to make, short lifespan housing, that is far from affordable, all this causes pollution & increased traffic volumes as people commute further to work. All these issues do not have suitable answers, and LEZ zones are just councils trying to basically put a sticking plaster on a ruptured artery, it's just not going to work

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It is difficult to take this seriously just considering the very small volume of material involved - brake pads and tyres are not large, last a very long time, and much of their volume remains intact when they are scrapped. Much of the "dust" which IS generated goes, and stays, on the road.

 

EVs don't really create brake dust at all because regeneration does most of the braking; plenty will go for scrap with original discs and pads on. Where they do get replaced it's generally because the discs have rotted away from lack of use.

 

The whole thing is an anti-EV propaganda piece - it's ludicrous as soon as you think about the detail but serves to implant doubt in peoples' minds so they'll keep on buying petrol...

You clearly find it difficult to imagine tyre and brake dust is a significant problem. I agree, it's not obvious. But go back forty years and most would have ridiculed the idea that the car and other activities which involve burning stuff to make energy was poisoning our atmosphere.

 

Slowly, society is waking up to the huge effect Man is having on our planet, see the banning of microbeads and concern regarding plastic pollution in general.

 

To infer I'm trying to discredit EVs is laughable, just read my posts. I'm just not the person who thinks 'problem solved' because we've worked out how to harm our environment a little less.

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Interesting that you mention the steelworks in Scunthorpe, I can remember works leaving time there when there was absolute congestion around the works entrance and the surrounding roads, not with cars but with cycles, literally hundreds if not thousands. It was the same at both the Normanby park works which employed nearly 10,000 as at the larger Appleby/Frodingham works which employed slightly more. They also bussed in workers from South Yorkshire and other more distant places which meant jobs were available outside of the local area with low or no cost transport. So many cycles were used that there was at least one employee on site whose full time job was cycle repairs for the workers.

 

Today there are less than 4000 employed in total on the one remaining site and the number of cycles used is very low, numbers low enough that you don't really notice them, the vast majority are private cars.

 

The products were also moved in the main by rail as were the raw materials, trains still bring in the raw materials but the output is now using road transport in the main.

 

A few weeks ago I was waiting at the traffic lights outside the steel works alongside a lorry loaded with steel bar. The steel has labels on it Product of Kuwait, amazing really.

My uncle god rest his soul used to get bussed in from grimbsy for bits of work! British steel employed something like 230,000 men in the 70's and it was something like 23,000 on scunny works.

 

I was working with an old boy (ive worked with blokes as old as 80 on there btw :o) on the sinter plant just pissing about changing rollers on conveyors, He said that his mate had got a start on scunny works in the 70's full time job etc. with perks. 

The lad jacked after 2 Weeks!!!! He said he asked his mate why he'd done this apparently he had been ''working'' on there for 2 weeks and not been given a single thing to do! :-D 

 

Put it this way when it was TATA the clock machines were all 'broken'' ;)

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I was on there a few times back in the 70's and there was one guy at the end of the medium section mill whose job was to make and fasten a tinplate label to the steel loaded on trailers waiting to be sent out.He had a small, about the size of a domestic garage brick built "office" with a large roll of tinplate and a stamping mechanism. He just used to drive up first thing in the morning and late in the afternoon and knock out a few labels stick them on the loads and go off site for the rest of the time. His lock up was heated and lit 24/7 and it was his full time job that he, perhaps, spent an hour a day on.

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Any details on historic vehicles entering yon city limits & are foreign plated vehicles exempt? What gets me is these modern cars with the crooked software pumping out clouds from multi- turbo so called eco crates when booting it over 2000rpm .

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Any details on historic vehicles entering yon city limits & are foreign plated vehicles exempt? What gets me is these post 2005 modern cars with the crooked software pumping out clouds from multi- turbo so called eco crates when booting it over 2000rpm .

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