The slow death of Vauxhall?

[Junkman]

Good rant.  A solid 7/10.  (It's a griffin, btw.)

 

 

Not a rant. In a nutshell, this is a pretty exact account of what they did.

 

Up to 1978:

 

Kadett -> Ascona -> Rekord -> Commodore -> Admiral/Diplomat

 

^^

Notice how they were able to serve the same customer throughout his career?

 

In 1978 they sent everyone outgrowing the Commodore straight to Mercedes.

At the exact same time they did that, BMW left nothing untried to get a piece of the very lucrative luxury car segment,

and ultimately became very successful in it. Opel let them have it without a fight.

 

They instead concentrated on stuffing as many unnecessary car lines as possible into the lower segments, where the competition is fierce and the margins a lot smaller.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Didn't win the Sig.

 

I bid hard and fast against another Britisher Schweinhund and pulled out at 1200 quid that that blow my wad at well over 1500 quid with fees and transport etc. Plus I hadn't actually seen it. What if the box was fucked?

 

Still cheap at 1300 quid plus fees (about £1450) if you take the risk and the M32 still works without sounding like a Stuka - that'll be on the road for two grand DIY.

 

 

 

 

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Not a rant. In a nutshell, this is a pretty exact account of what they did.

 

Up to 1978:

 

Kadett -> Ascona -> Rekord -> Commodore -> Kapitan -> Admiral/Diplomat

 

^^

Notice how they were able to serve the same customer throughout his career?

 

In 1978 they sent everyone outgrowing the Commodore straight to Mercedes.

At the exact same time they did that, BMW left nothing untried to get a piece of the very lucrative luxury car segment,

and ultimately became very successful in it. Opel let them have it without a fight.

 

They instead concentrated on stuffing as many unnecessary car lines into the lower segments, where the competition is fierce and the margins a lot smaller.

 

 

Almost. The 1978 Senator was an excellent car that was probably better than a 528i and as good as a W124 280E. It was a very handsome, well made car that drove well but the tide was already turning in the early seventies. As good as it was, the Senator never made it. 

 

BMW's surge through 1976 to 1986 was stratospheric.

[Cleon-Fonte]

I always enjoy how Saab apologists like to blame GM for running down the brand while at the same time celebrating how Saab basically told GM to fuck off and did their own thing, against GM'S wishes. Can't be both, so which is it?

 

The whole Saab redesigning Opels under cover of darkness thing is a complete red herring, a Top Gearism that's spilled out into the real world as 'fact' because Clarkson said so. In actual fact between 1989 and 2000 GM was not the majority shareholder in Saab and to all intents and purposes Saab still functioned as an independent company, still with their own independent development resources and with the same management as before.

 

Far from merely ordering Saab to restyle Vectras, the GM deal was initially much more of a platform sharing agreement where Saab's engineers were free to redesign whatever aspects they wished. As a result the GM900 and the 9-5, whilst GM-based, still manage to look and feel much like proper Saabs, despite their development costs having been a fraction of a completely new design. This GM-Saab arrangement was actually quite successful, the cars sold well and Saab managed to make a healthy profit for the first time in years.

 

The problems started when GM actually took over in 2000: the second generation 9-3 really was little more than a warmed over Vectra and GM hamstrung it by witholding funding for a number of variants which may have increased its sales appeal; then Saab was forced to stump up half the development costs of Fiat's Premium platform which it ended up not using, as GM canned Saab's planned 9-5 replacement at the last minute. GM then began to make plans to shut down Saab's development and production facilities and combine them with Opel's at Russelheim (at Saab's cost, of course).

 

Then there was the fact that a lot of GM's new model development at Saab consisted of horrors like these, which we in Britain were thankfully spared:

 

 

 

Having crippled Saab with a series of poor-to-mediocre products and unnecessary spending, when GM eventually decided to divest themselves of their Swedish operations in their post-bankruptcy fire sale they crippled the company again by refusing to license GM intellectual property to anyone with a viable business case. From that point the inevitable happened and Saab died a long, undignified death.

[Junkman]

Almost. The 1978 Senator was an excellent car that was probably better than a 528i and as good as a W124 280E. It was a very handsome, well made car that drove well but the tide was already turning in the early seventies. As good as it was, the Senator never made it.

 

It wasn't a Bossman's car though. It was a pimped Commodore and yes, as such it was up there with what you say.

Hence captains of the industry, suddenly deprived of their trusty Admirals and Diplomats, had to buy an S-Class instead,

despite those awfully reeked of new money.

 

 

BMW's surge through 1976 to 1986 was stratospheric.

Because Opel let them. That's exactly my point.

Exactly when both - Mercedes and BMW - were run by charismatic autocrats, Opel was run by a committee of grey suits

who just were unable to raise to the challenge. It has been dying a slow death ever since - see thread title.

[sam simmons]

Almost. The 1978 Senator was an excellent car that was probably better than a 528i and as good as a W124 280E. It was a very handsome, well made car that drove well but the tide was already turning in the early seventies. As good as it was, the Senator never made it. 

 

BMW's surge through 1976 to 1986 was stratospheric.

 

Rust killed both my Senators and all three of my Carltons......the rot had truly set in

[Junkman]

But they really were good until their arses rusted off.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 

Hence captains of the industry, suddenly deprived of their trusty Admirals and Diplomats, had to buy an S-Class instead,

despite those awfully reeked of new money.

 

 

 

Until 1986, when the E32 735i became available. Or an XJ40 for ADAC aficionados. 

[sam simmons]

And far better than the Granada/Scorpio of the time in my eyes.....

 

I got pulled over in my 24v Senator by a motorcycle cop back in the 90s and all he wanted to talk about was the car,which was lucky for me as i was expecting a speeding ticket...

[Datsuncog]

It wasn't a Bossman's car though. It was a pimped Commodore and yes, as such it was up there with what you say.

Hence captains of the industry, suddenly deprived of their trusty Admirals and Diplomats, had to buy an S-Class instead,

despite those awfully reeked of new money.

 

Do you reckon it could have gone differently if prototypes like the 2800S/Viscount had been jointly developed by Vauxhall and Opel, at the point their ranges were being merged in the late 70s?

 

 

Or even if Aussie GM barges like the Holden Statesman could have been Europeanised?

 

(Genuine query, guv!)

[Junkman]

Until 1986, when the E32 735i became available. Or an XJ40 for ADAC aficionados.

 

They could buy a 7 Series in 1977, exactly when Opel decided they should do so by cancelling the Admiral/Diplomat.

[sierraman]

This would never have happened if they continued with green velour interiors.

[Junkman]

Do you reckon it could have gone differently if prototypes like the 2800S/Viscount had been jointly developed by Vauxhall and Opel, at the point their ranges were being merged in the late 70s?

 

Vauxhall 2800S ('Viscount').jpg

 

Or even if Aussie GM barges like the Holden Statesman could have been Europeanised?

 

(Genuine query, guv!)

 

Those big Opels had a reputation for excellent build quality, performance and handling, the latter still a thing the S-Class didn't excel at back then, remember? IMO it's the 7 Series that picked up exactly where Opel left off and I doubt a Holden would have raised to the challenge.

 

I believe people were actually waiting for Opel to launch a car to go into direct competition with the W116, which in itself was a step up from the W108/9 it replaced. So they expected Opel to do the same thing - next generation Admiral/Diplomat being a step up from the previous one.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

They could buy a 7 Series in 1977, exactly when Opel decided they should do so by cancelling the Admiral/Diplomat.

 

 

True enough. But they weren't quite in the same league as the W116 - the E32 was the car that poked Merc in the eye by building a demonstrably better car. A black 750i with those dished alloys..........

[Zantimisfit]

The whole Saab redesigning Opels under cover of darkness thing is a complete red herring, a Top Gearism that's spilled out into the real world as 'fact' because Clarkson said so. In actual fact between 1989 and 2000 GM was not the majority shareholder in Saab and to all intents and purposes Saab still functioned as an independent company, still with their own independent development resources and with the same management as before.

 

Far from merely ordering Saab to restyle Vectras, the GM deal was initially much more of a platform sharing agreement where Saab's engineers were free to redesign whatever aspects they wished. As a result the GM900 and the 9-5, whilst GM-based, still manage to look and feel much like proper Saabs, despite their development costs having been a fraction of a completely new design. This GM-Saab arrangement was actually quite successful, the cars sold well and Saab managed to make a healthy profit for the first time in years.

 

The problems started when GM actually took over in 2000: the second generation 9-3 really was little more than a warmed over Vectra and GM hamstrung it by witholding funding for a number of variants which may have increased its sales appeal; then Saab was forced to stump up half the development costs of Fiat's Premium platform which it ended up not using, as GM canned Saab's planned 9-5 replacement at the last minute. GM then began to make plans to shut down Saab's development and production facilities and combine them with Opel's at Russelheim (at Saab's cost, of course).

 

Then there was the fact that a lot of GM's new model development at Saab consisted of horrors like these, which we in Britain were thankfully spared:

 

2198_WH_161230_ntfh-_Read-Only_-large.jpg

 

05903081990004.jpg

 

Having crippled Saab with a series of poor-to-mediocre products and unnecessary spending, when GM eventually decided to divest themselves of their Swedish operations in their post-bankruptcy fire sale they crippled the company again by refusing to license GM intellectual property to anyone with a viable business case. From that point the inevitable happened and Saab died a long, undignified death.

 

Just to add that much of the 'GM IP' that GM refused to license was actually Saab IP that GM transferred to itself as part of it ownership....so basically Saab couldn't use much of what had been its own IP

 

Doubt it would have made much difference anyway....they were doomed anyway once rumours of sale/closure  started 

 

....a story

 

Saab built a factory in Malmo a year or so before GM took over. It was built as a new concept, all glass atriums and pot plants and everybody on first name terms. All very nice. President of GM Europe Bob Eaton visited the place shortly thereafter. Nobody was there to meet him at the airport or even off the ferry from Copenhagen (no bridge in those days). He had to find his own taxi to the factory.....which apparently disappointed him somewhat. Anyway it was shut down within six months.

[Junkman]

True enough. But they weren't quite in the same league as the W116 - the E32 was the car that poked Merc in the eye by building a demonstrably better car. A black 750i with those dished alloys..........

 

I agree. With the e32 BMW deffo had entered S-Class territory.

But with the e23 they seriously knocked at the door and given Benz's predictable model lifespan of seven years, it must have been a no brainer what's going to happen next in Munich. And so it must have been for the Opel folks, who preferred to pull out, thus triggering a slow and painful death.

It's always the reputation of the top models that rubs down on the 'lesser' models, innitt?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Aye.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Some tandom musings , thoughts and questions.

The Diplomat and its lesser siblings only sold 61,000 cars in eight years, compare that to the close to half a million W116 S Classes. I know the Opels ran from 69-77 and the Merc 73-81 but I'm sure the 108 also outsold the Opels.

The main reaso is presumably that the Opel was mainly (only?) sold in Germany .

 

Vauxhall gave up on 'big' cars in 1972 , although a V8 FE Victor reviving the Viscount badge almost made it to market, apparently one made it to Earls Court for the 73 Motor Show but was removed at the 11th hour when OPEC scuppered any hope of it selling, perhaps Opel should have seen sense then.

 

As for Opel having a car for every stage of a ( invariably, then ) a man's career, we had a similar company in this country with an even wider model range, most of it shut up shop in 2004, the last little bit becoming a vanity project for a wealthy Indian , but even that is looking increasingly fragile.

 

Do or did, Opel sell Holden V8s or was that a solely Vauxhall thing? Never understood why they bothered, I like the idea as much as the next man but not enough o actually buy one.

Would Opel Diplomat badged Cadillacs have sold any better than the STS , CTS etc?

 

I remember having a long term fleet demonstrator Senator 24 valve when they were launched . I loved it and tried so hard to get the 8 members of the junior board to get one.

All of them took it for a weekend and came back raving about its performance, handling and equipment, then promptly ordered a 2.9 XJ6 with cloth and no aircon or similarly pov spec Merc 230es or 525i e34s.

" I'm not driving a Vauxhall, no matter how good it is" said one when putting his order in for a Volvo 960 24v, admitting the Volvo was not quite as good in every area , just more acceptable at the golf club.

I can honestly say that I'd pull up on my bosses drive at night after a long day, see the Senator sitting there and know I was going to be getting in a faster, better, more entertaining car to drive home than the 420 SEL I'd driven all day.

 

Even the Police seem to have given up on big Vauxhalls, has anyone seen a new Insignia Plodmobile ?

[AMC Rebel]

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[AMC Rebel]

 

 

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[barefoot]

 

Remember...

[Junkman]

Some tandom musings , thoughts and questions.

The Diplomat and its lesser siblings only sold 61,000 cars in eight years, compare that to the close to half a million W116 S Classes. I know the Opels ran from 69-77 and the Merc 73-81 but I'm sure the 108 also outsold the Opels.

The main reaso is presumably that the Opel was mainly (only?) sold in Germany .

 

Vauxhall gave up on 'big' cars in 1972 , although a V8 FE Victor reviving the Viscount badge almost made it to market, apparently one made it to Earls Court for the 73 Motor Show but was removed at the 11th hour when OPEC scuppered any hope of it selling, perhaps Opel should have seen sense then.

 

As for Opel having a car for every stage of a ( invariably, then ) a man's career, we had a similar company in this country with an even wider model range, most of it shut up shop in 2004, the last little bit becoming a vanity project for a wealthy Indian , but even that is looking increasingly fragile.

 

Do or did, Opel sell Holden V8s or was that a solely Vauxhall thing? Never understood why they bothered, I like the idea as much as the next man but not enough o actually buy one.

Would Opel Diplomat badged Cadillacs have sold any better than the STS , CTS etc?

 

I remember having a long term fleet demonstrator Senator 24 valve when they were launched . I loved it and tried so hard to get the 8 members of the junior board to get one.

All of them took it for a weekend and came back raving about its performance, handling and equipment, then promptly ordered a 2.9 XJ6 with cloth and no aircon or similarly pov spec Merc 230es or 525i e34s.

" I'm not driving a Vauxhall, no matter how good it is" said one when putting his order in for a Volvo 960 24v, admitting the Volvo was not quite as good in every area , just more acceptable at the golf club.

I can honestly say that I'd pull up on my bosses drive at night after a long day, see the Senator sitting there and know I was going to be getting in a faster, better, more entertaining car to drive home than the 420 SEL I'd driven all day.

 

Even the Police seem to have given up on big Vauxhalls, has anyone seen a new Insignia Plodmobile ?

 

 

Very good musings indeed.

 

Yes, it is true that Opel lost ground in the luxury car segment throughout the Seventies. In fact, they fell from the best selling luxury car

in Germany (the Kapitan) to the figures you mentioned. That they only sold in Germany is however not the case, as the many examples

turning up in other European countries today attest.

 

Opel never sold Holden V8s, the V8 in the Diplomats was the SBC in Corvette tuning stage. Selling Diplomats as baby Cadillacs was

seriously considered, prototypes accordingly badged and grilled do exist, the Diplomat's different front clip, which was later dropped,

was also done because of this. However, Cadillac ultimately preferred to tool up its own Seville instead.

Ironically, numerous potential Diplomat customers opted for the Seville once the car became unavailable, were impressed by the comfort

and mod cons, but found it lacking in the performance/handling/build quality departments.

Numerous contemporary German motoring press reports coming to similar conclusions exist. One I remember quite clearly was about

a Seville given to a Commodore owner for evaluation.

After three months his verdict was generally positive, but the aforementioned shortfalls paired with the Opel garages' relative unfamiliarity

with the car and the car's rather exotic look and feel that didn't always go down well with neighbours and colleagues ultimately made

him not buy it. I guess Holdens would have faced a similar fate in Germany.

 

I won't argue for a second that Senators were darn good cars and very well appointed for the money (did someone mention green velours?).

But their perceived status at least in Germany was not where the Admiral/Diplomat's had been.

They were considered upper middle class, whereas the former big Opels were seen as decidedly upper class, in particular the Diplo V8.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Not to mention:

 

 

 

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Shit the bed.   

 

This or some cart sprung Mark II Jag in 1965?

 

 

 

 

[Junkman]

Diplomat B showing off its Cadillacesque front:

 

 

 

Compare with Admiral's:

 

 

After the decision not to sell the Diplo as a Cadillac, this was the common front end for all big Opels.

Towards the end even the Diplomat moniker was dropped, only the Admiral held out to the bitter end.

So there were some Admiral V8s.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Shit the bed.   

 

This or some cart sprung Mark II Jag in 1965?

Yes, but in Britain at least you could probably have a Mk2, an E-Type and a Mk10 for the same price.

Meanwhile if we're putting up pictures of favourite Opels...

[egg]

That seems to be the recommended way on PH to do things if you want to pay cash. The best car prices are the only ones on finance - often works out less than if paying cash. This is because the manufacturing sets up the deal and offers deposit contribution (basically a manufacturer discount) and other things to work the price down. You don't get these if paying cash.

 

Yep, got some quotes on Carwow for a Citigo auto (60bhp) RRP £10,780

 

cash price = £9,338

PCP price = £8,239 because PCP - Includes an additional finance deposit contribution from Skoda of £1,500. 

[Junkman]

Sadly buying those cars now won't save the company.

 

Have one Opel sadly never built.

 

 

[warren t claim]

The Insignia is a German car, designed and built in Rüsselsheim. Fucking Griffin??

 

Insignias shed them in disgust.

 

It would be like asking Rommel to wear a George Cross. Verboten.

If you chip away at the Blitz you'll see a Holden badge under there.

[georgeinabz]

Having read a bit more on this, the reasons for Vauxhall terminating all franchises and their future direction does look a bit clearer.

 

It seems that Vauxhall are increasingly unhappy with dealers who are operating a 'pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap' style operation and are moving new cars at massive discounts and that they'd rather concentrate on having a smaller number of dealers who are making a decent margin and offering better service. So the likelihood is that the likes of Arnold, EH, etc might be seeing some of their franchises disappearing.

 

Having a better quality of dealership who actually took some pride in the product and had faith in the product and didn't feel that the best way to sell it is to massively discount it would be a great positive step forward though.

 

Unfortunately manufacturers exist to produce as much as possible.

Very likely AC , PV will be chosen to pile them high removing any locally owned dealers .

 

 

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