Project Dollywobbler's Invacar - Ongoing

[Zelandeth]

Have never had a car spit plugs out.

I did have fun for a while with a 500cc single cylinder Honda trials bike which used to spit the entire central portion of the plug out regularly because the compression ratio was so stupidly high though.  You just learned to keep two spare plugs with you at all times.

It would be interesting to see what state the head is in... she's always sounded like she idles off a cylinder so I do wonder if a leaky thread around that plug may have had something to do with that.

Between the just generally rougher sounding running, oil leaks and now this, I do have to wonder if that engine has suffered some chronic abuse in its small number of miles...The one in TP despite having ~30K on the clock and having spent some of that being a caravan tug, doesn't leak a drop of oil*, if generally quieter (exhaust note excepted) and seemed to be full of far less gunk based on what turned up in the oil pickup strainer...You do have to wonder what their respective histories are...

*Okay, that's a lie... there's a small leak from the sump plug itself at present...but I don't count that as a fault of the engine and a fresh copper washer will no doubt sort it.

 

[dollywobbler]

Oddly. it always sounded a bit one-cylindery even on the old engine. The engine in TP also hasn't had my ham-fisted attemps at fettling.

I will investigate, I just can't say when. The unit isn't particularly close to home, and with the Croatia 2CV trip now just a week away, the 2CV really is the focus.

[richardthestag]

yay for elly and Croatia.

Helicoil has to be worst case scenario for Tuk, yay for that too. Though you may need to remove the head before cutting the new thread ?

[Tamworthbay]

Our old vw bus spat a plug whilst in France, cue a scene worthy of allo allo where I spoke loudly and slowly in English and a delightful gentleman mechanic summoned his mate who spoke loudly and slowly in French. Entente cordially was reached, a shit load of araldite applied and blighty was achieved, albeit at a somewhat reduced pace. Je suis amour le francais (sadly that is my entire repertoire but it’s got me far in the past)

[Zelandeth]

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be precisely enough space to make it look possible to get the head off with the engine in situ...but not actually quite enough room to actually get it off.

[dollywobbler]

That's the annoying thing. With the engine offset, I reckon there's little chance of getting the RH head off. LH would be easy!

Still, it's not like removing the engine is difficult. Allows me to tackle some other jobs too.

[mrbenn]

I have an engine crane you can borrow if your unit is anywhere near here (Cheshire).

[dollywobbler]

Thanks, but I actually own one now, having decided it was the only way to get the Fox engine back in. I can pull the Invacar engine out on my own, but it is probably safer to use the crane...

[Zelandeth]

I reckon based on my experience getting the one transferred over on mine that the crane was more of a nuisance than a help getting the engine in/out from the top.  The lack of any proper attachments and the thoroughly unhelpful weight distribution saw to that.  For all it's a small and (relatively) light engine I found it to be an awful lot more awkward to install than I expected.

Supporting the engine then using the crane to lift the body off (pretty sure that is how the manual suggests) is probably the easier solution.

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Supporting the engine then using the crane to lift the body off (pretty sure that is how the manual suggests) is probably the easier solution.

officially the engine (and gearbox) "just" drops out of the bottom of the car

 

[dollywobbler]

Here's the spark plug after its meeting with the road by the way.

[chaseracer]

Perhaps not important right now, given the above, but did you ever find the lost hubcap?

[dollywobbler]

No. I lost it many miles from home. So I just took the other one off instead.

[SiC]

Is there no thread in the head? Wondered  if it rattled loose. 

[LightBulbFun]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:37 PM, barrett said:

It's generally known that Spike Rhiando designed 'a fibreglass invalid car for AC' and as the Mk14 Acedes was the first fibreglass AC Invacar it must be that one - the model 70 is simply a refinement of the Mk14 design although obviously mechanically quite different.

 

I'm not 100 per cent sure I belive this though, as Spike was getting busy working with fibreglass in the early 1950s it seems more likely he was responsible for the first plastic Invacar (mk12? I'm a bit rusty on this stuff) or perhaps the Harper? Certainly the Harper is flashy enough to have come from his fertile mind.

 

That doesn't really help, does it? This is the whole reason I love these cars - they must be the only postwar production cars about which so little is certain. I wish somebody would take the time to carry out some proper research before everybody involved is dead but it seems unlikely. I guess there is lots we will never know.

came across this post again I think I can respond to it now!

interesting on the design front I have no actual clue as to who is actual responsible for the design of the Model 70 sadly, the only thing I have is that Fraser told me he sold RRE20L to a chap who IIRC said his father designed them, I'll have to ask for more details  (said person apparently lives in London so when I get on the Road with REV451R I could just drop on by!)

the first full bodied fibreglass invalid carriage AFAIK was the Harper Mk1  of 1954

 

its interesting to note that the Metal AC Acedes ended with the Mk12 (NOT the same as the Invacar Mk12 before anyone gets confused) and that after that came the Mk14 Fibreglass AC Acedes (then the 14A the 15 and the Model 70 finally)

but I have no idea what happened to Mk13! (did they just skip 13 because unlucky number or because of something else?) 

Quote

That doesn't really help, does it? This is the whole reason I love these cars - they must be the only postwar production cars about which so little is certain. I wish somebody would take the time to carry out some proper research before everybody involved is dead but it seems unlikely. I guess there is lots we will never know.

am I what you wished for?  (sadly most people directly involved with invalid vehicles back in the day have sadly passed away)

I know that there are a few people dotted around the internet who used to work at approved repairs and worked on invalid vehicles at the time, and some of them have told of some very funny and fascinating stories

I really want to "interview" and note down the stories John Sargent the person who sold me my Model 70 told me, there exactly the sort of things that get lost to time sadly

"in the villiers machines we would come down the hill at a great rate of knots and then drop it down a gear, and it would either Blow up or clean all the crap out the engine!"

and stuff like that or how he recalled modifying a Invalid vehicle with mirrors you could turn from the inside via a choke cable type arrangement for someone who could not turn their head so the mirrors allowed them to look around corners etc

[dollywobbler]

Today, I collected the Invacar from storage, swapping it for the Fox. 

I took the iffy spark plug out again, cleaned the threads, added a touch of grease and reinserted it. It still doesn't feel brilliant, but seems to be holding and the engine does feel a little more punchy. Maybe that plug had been coming loose for a while...

65mph the top speed today. I was mostly held up by baffled tourists. The brakes felt iffy though, so I decided to ease off. Quick visit the railway, because why wouldn't you?

My pal was there in his Kitten. My other pal was driving the little steam engine. Photo op! After this, I checked the master cylinder. Empty...

As I got to my driveway, TWC's brakes failed pretty much completely but that's ok. The handbrake is really good.

I've had my suspicions about this master cylinder for a while, as (the MOT man never sees this) it does seem to weep a little. I might dig out the old one as I think Angry Dicky confirmed it was ok (and not borked as I thought it was). Need to get TWC fighting fit for the Retro Rides Gathering this weekend. Accommodation booked, so I'll be pretty disappointed if I can't get her sorted. I also have a new gasket coming for the sump pan to try and quell some of the oil leakage.

 

[busmansholiday]

"in the villiers machines we would come down the hill at a great rate of knots and then drop it down a gear, and it would either Blow up or clean all the crap out the engine!

A similar system may* have been used by drivers of Leyland Leopards who were cheesed off because the shit heap they had been allocated wasn't keeping up with their colleague in an AEC Reliance...

[gadgetgricey]

24 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

 

Jesus, saw that photo and thought TWC's Head gasket had gone in a big way.

Then looked more closely

[Pegasus79]

Hi Hubnut, 

passed you on the A44 about 10am this morning on our way back from a week in New Quay. TWC looked to be whizzing along nicely ??

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Today, I collected the Invacar from storage, swapping it for the Fox. 

I took the iffy spark plug out again, cleaned the threads, added a touch of grease and reinserted it. It still doesn't feel brilliant, but seems to be holding and the engine does feel a little more punchy. Maybe that plug had been coming loose for a while...

65mph the top speed today. I was mostly held up by baffled tourists. The brakes felt iffy though, so I decided to ease off. Quick visit the railway, because why wouldn't you?

My pal was there in his Kitten. My other pal was driving the little steam engine. Photo op! After this, I checked the master cylinder. Empty...

As I got to my driveway, TWC's brakes failed pretty much completely but that's ok. The handbrake is really good.

I've had my suspicions about this master cylinder for a while, as (the MOT man never sees this) it does seem to weep a little. I might dig out the old one as I think Angry Dicky confirmed it was ok (and not borked as I thought it was). Need to get TWC fighting fit for the Retro Rides Gathering this weekend. Accommodation booked, so I'll be pretty disappointed if I can't get her sorted. I also have a new gasket coming for the sump pan to try and quell some of the oil leakage.

 

very happy to see TWC is back up and running  perhaps it might be worth giving TWC a new set of spark plugs to be safe? (and closely inspect the threads in the spark plug hole), I would be a bit nervous about reusing a dodgy spark plug, I dont want it to blow out again and this actually damage the engine

but very cool to hear that she is running a bit better, I was wondering if that spark plug had been loose for a while causing a loss of compression and as such a loss of engine performance 

speaking of engines do you think you could grab the engine number of TWCs original engine and PM it to me before you leave for your next big adventure?  (if your not sure where it is its by the base of the dipstick usually covered in lots of crap so might take some degreasing to find) and a clear shot of the VIN plate if you can? I have one but its not very clear sadly

[LightBulbFun]

8 minutes ago, gadgetgricey said:

Jesus, saw that photo and thought TWC's Head gasket had gone in a big way.

 

*pedant mode* the Steyr puch engine used in the Model 70 does not actually use head gaskets AFAIK also Aircooled

[dollywobbler]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

very happy to see TWC is back up and running  perhaps it might be worth giving TWC a new set of spark plugs to be safe? (and closely inspect the threads in the spark plug hole), I would be a bit nervous about reusing a dodgy spark plug, I dont want it to blow out again and this actually damage the engine

but very cool to hear that she is running a bit better, I was wondering if that spark plug had been loose for a while causing a loss of compression and as such a loss of engine performance 

speaking of engines do you think you could grab the engine number of TWCs original engine and PM it to me before you leave for your next big adventure?  (if your not sure where it is its by the base of the dipstick usually covered in lots of crap so might take some degreasing to find) and a clear shot of the VIN plate if you can? I have one but its not very clear sadly

The plug fitted at the moment is one of Elly's old ones. I have a brand new pair on order. I may take a hacksaw to one of the old plugs to try and turn into a makeshift thread-cleaning tool. 

Sorry, just about to dash out (again!) but I will try to get the number at some point. 

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I may take a hacksaw to one of the old plugs to try and turn into a makeshift thread-cleaning tool. 

 

are spark plug threads a normal thread size/pitch?

I know @richardthestag had good luck cleaning threads by using a thread tap to clean/chase threads out on various bits of range rover  

(although I imagine you dont want crap from the threads falling into the engine)

[Angrydicky]

4 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I've had my suspicions about this master cylinder for a while, as (the MOT man never sees this) it does seem to weep a little. I might dig out the old one as I think Angry Dicky confirmed it was ok (and not borked as I thought it was).

 

The bore of the original cylinder looked good IIRC, but it would benefit from a seal kit. Very simple job to do on those Girling centre valve cylinders, should only take 5 mins or so!

[richardthestag]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

are spark plug threads a normal thread size/pitch?

I know @richardthestag had good luck cleaning threads by using a thread tap to clean/chase threads out on various bits of range rover  

(although I imagine you dont want crap from the threads falling into the engine)

the idea Ian has to attack an old plug with a hacksaw to turn it into a thread chaser has worked for me, bottom crank bracket on a bike with a large reverse threaded hole. Tap is available for more money than I care to even think about, used an old threaded cup in exactly this way.

Never done it but I have heard of folk stuffing a rag into the plug hole, lots of grease on the tap/. thread chaser and working one turn at the time, withdrawing, cleaning, lubing and going again. If it turns easily then no need to worry about withdrawing. pull rag out and cushty. Not sure I would though, would be worried about swarf

[Fumbler]

On 8/4/2019 at 12:45 AM, LightBulbFun said:

interesting on the design front I have no actual clue as to who is actual responsible for the design of the Model 70 sadly

I do. He used to work for Father Fumbler's old boss before Father joined the business.

Old boss said this and I paraphrase: "We met at a safety demonstration for the Invacar when it was being rolled out. [Designer who I forget the name of] drove the Invacar in a crosswind powered by a jet aircraft. It was rock stable. We even decided to put its most staunch critic in one and repeat the experiment. He decided to shake the handlebars to make it look like it was about to fall over!"

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, Fumbler said:

I do. He used to work for Father Fumbler's old boss before Father joined the business.

Old boss said this and I paraphrase: "We met at a safety demonstration for the Invacar when it was being rolled out. [Designer who I forget the name of] drove the Invacar in a crosswind powered by a jet aircraft. It was rock stable. We even decided to put its most staunch critic in one and repeat the experiment. He decided to shake the handlebars to make it look like it was about to fall over!"

oh thats very cool! I had heard about that stability demonstration before but its very cool to hear about it from another angle so to speak

the one thing that does not add up there is, it was Invacar who did the demonstration in 1972 or 1973 IIRC

but it was AC who designed the Model 70 and the AC Acedes Mk14/15 the Model 70 gets its overall shape from

so Perhaps your old boss was thinking of Bert Greeves/Derry preston cob, they where the 2 responsable for Invacars before the Model 70? but that sadly does not answer who was responsible for the design of the AC Acedes Mk14 (Model 67) and  subsequently the Model 70

(I know somewhere on the internet it is mentioned what type of jet aircraft they used ill have to find it again and post it here )

 

speaking of demonstrations I know there was also a demonstration of a Mini struggling to follow a Model 70 through an autosolo type course

[Fumbler]

All I know is that he said Model 70. He's the guy to remember stuff and since he remembered how to work an Apple Lisa in front of my eyes, I'd trust him. Model 70 might not have been what he meant but it was in the context of the Essex Invacar plant where DW got his pulleys from.

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, Fumbler said:

All I know is that he said Model 70. He's the guy to remember stuff and since he remembered how to work an Apple Lisa in front of my eyes, I'd trust him. Model 70 might not have been what he meant but it was in the context of the Essex Invacar plant where DW got his pulleys from.

Yah It was a Model 70 they tested and  the test was done by Invacar, but remember the Model 70 was only built by Invacar

the Model 70 was designed by AC, Invacar had no input in the design process (Invacar didn't even get to see a Model 70 Prototype until 1970) so unless AC sent the guy over to Invacar, then the person driving the Model 70 could not have been the designer as that person would of resided/worked at AC

[Fumbler]

That I wouldn't know. It was most likely a designer from AC coming over to see his work in action. I might ask if I remember next time I speak with him!