Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - 19/04 - HVAC Preemptive Investigation...

[mcmolloy1]

The catch shouldn't be too hard to find, most Renaults 5/9/11/19/21 of that era use the same one, there's bound to be someone breaking one with that catch on it.
 

[High Jetter]

Is this not Catch 25?

[Zelandeth]

Having a driver's door which actually closed reliably for the first time since I got the car and dry roads, seemed a good excuse to use it as an actual car today.

So much nicer to drive now the steering wheel is straight.  Also why the heck can't companies just make cars like this any more?  Why is travelling in comfort just not a thing any more?

Not like my cars are easy to spot out and about or anything.

No new issues to report I'm glad to report.  Though I really do need to investigate the battery as even after 70 odd miles today it still sounds like it's struggling.  It's been in there since 2017 since when the car clearly hasn't been used regularly so probably has run flat at least a couple of times, is a bog standard Halfords one, and looks undersized for the car really anyway.  So wouldn't surprise me if it was on its last legs.

[Zelandeth]

More proof that my cars don't get a free pass to sit around doing nothing.  25 on recycling duty today.

You can fit a somewhat alarmingly large amount of stuff in there.

Admittedly I'd rather be using the Caddy for jobs like this, but the Council insist it's a commercial vehicle so that ain't happening.

[timolloyd]

With the boot lid removed, there would be something pickup-like about this car.

What a machine! Enjoying your updates.

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, timolloyd said:

With the boot lid removed, there would be something pickup-like about this car.

What a machine! Enjoying your updates.

Down to having such a huge wraparound window on the bootlid I think.  Xantia is similar, albeit slightly less pronounced.

It is damned near as big as some pick ups with the seats down!

[Marm Toastsmith]

I got away with the caddy at the tip. Rear seats were enough to convince them it was a car.

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Marm Toastsmith said:

I got away with the caddy at the tip. Rear seats were enough to convince them it was a car.

Yeah, our lot take great pleasure in finding any possible way to be awkward.  Including refusing me entry first time I turned up there with it, refusing to open the barrier.

There is no turning area on the outside of the barrier.  I had to make a whole load of people behind me in the queue back up so I could do a 39 point turn to leave.

Still pre-booked entry only - in 15 minute slots.  May the gods have mercy on your soul if you're not out of there by the time your slot is over.  Despite making you pick every single bit of card they deem to be paper rather than cardboard out of what you had put in the cardboard bin having wasted about 13 of those 15 minutes.

Then the council seems baffled as to why our area has an utterly massive fly tipping problem...

[Zelandeth]

Glasgow achieved.

Just a bit of stuff on board.

Of course our room is on the ninth bloody floor so it takes about ten minutes per trip to the car because we have already swamped the three lifts in the hotel and there's a huge queue every time.

Taking a breather now, reckon I'm about two thirds done - after nearly an hour.  Hoping I can scrounge a trolley to get the last couple of loads of stuff out.

Caddy did a sterling job of being an absolutely low stress motorway mile muncher again, and got here with over 1/4 a tank of fuel left.

Edit: Always fun getting to see your car from viewpoints not normally possible.

Caddy isn't hard to spot even from 9 floors up.

[Zelandeth]

725 miles and a heck of a busy weekend later, we're safely back home.

Predictably the Caddy didn't miss a beat and seemed to compress the six hour (almost to the minute) trip home by an improbable amount.

Poor thing definitely needs a wash now!

Excuse me while I now go and sleep for a week!

[Zelandeth]

Today I decided to take something simple as I'm still feeling quite beat down energy wise from the weekend.  Target: Horrible crusty looking battery terminal connections on the Renault.  I want to discount these as a cause of the sluggish cranking before I condemn the battery.

The terminals have obviously been replaced at some point with the type which have two screws holding the lead in like a giant terminal strip.  I've never been a fan of these as it's difficult to get the things tight enough without stripping the threads out of the brass.  Sure enough both screws on both terminals were finger tight.

The body to battery ground lead was pretty much dead.  It's never a good sign when a piece of electrical flex makes crunching noises when moved.

After wiggling it back and forth a couple of times the wire came away from the flex entirely.  Must have been hanging on by a handful of bits of copper.

New earth strap installed.

I took the positive side apart as well and cleaned everything up.  A new set of battery terminals and crimp connectors are on order so I can redo this in a more permanent fashion.

Given the body to battery terminal was about ready to fail I figure the engine to body one is probably in a similar condition (not honestly sure where it lives), so I added a new one between a couple of convenient bolts on the head and cross member.

I will probably shorten that a bit once I've got more terminals on hand.  Likewise I might look around for something a bit further away from the exhaust.

The engine definitely seems to spin over a lot quicker now - at least it did the two times I've started it today.  So we might have a quick win there.

There was an utterly unexpected bonus prize to this activity though.

The central display has started working again - and by extension so has the stereo returned to a fully functioning state.  As I understand it this display is entirely driven by the stereo, and my guess is that at some point when the battery has gone flat it's crashed.  My disconnecting and reconnecting the battery has allowed it to restart in a more graceful manner.  

Stereo works, steering column controls work, upper control panel works, I *think* the backlighting in the buttons works, heck even the external thermometer seems to be giving reasonable numbers (that was in the sun with the bonnet open so I suspect the sensor was in direct sunlight - it was showing high 40s while I was driving which ties in with the local forecast).  Would be nice if there was a way to switch it to show degrees centigrade, but I'm not going to lose sleep over that.

Having access to the controls and an FM source has meant I can properly try out the stereo...and it sounds bloody excellent.  Especially now I'm not listening through a tape deck that is kinda sorta working but really needs a service.  Haven't actually tried that today - it may too be doing better now, I'm not entirely sure the amplifier was correctly switching sources before.

Equally importantly though, I have a working clock again.  Not having a clock on the dash is something I find exceptionally irritating.

Even if you're not a car person (and/or a child of the 80s), it's hard not to have your eye drawn to the big digital display in the middle of the dash, so having it displaying sane information rather than gobbledygook is a definite improvement.

Before photo for reference:

An updated nighttime dash photo will of course follow later on now everything is working properly.

If time, energy and weather permit I'll hopefully get the valve clearances set tomorrow.  These engines always seem to be a bit rattly from the top end - though I'm tending to think that's because nobody ever sets the clearances rather than because "they're like that." At least it actually has proper adjustable tappets rather than having to faff about with shims or nonsense like that (hello Saab).

[Zelandeth]

Apparently the editor is having a moment as it's refusing to let me edit that post, so apologies for the double post.

One of the additional things that wasn't previously working because of the issues with the central display was the illumination for the keypad below it.  Which was really glaringly obvious at night. 

Before:

Those two yellow LEDs to the left shouldn't be stuck on either.

After:

Much better.  Whole central stack looks far more complete now.

I was going to update the whole dash at night image but realised after taking the photos that I'd forgotten to unplug the connector to put out the washer fluid level warning, so will come back to that tomorrow.  Having two bright orange warning lights in the middle of things spoils the effect a bit!

[Zelandeth]

Job number 1 for today: Valve clearance adjustment.

This is about as simple as it gets!

Bit of gunk in there, but nothing alarming.  Unlike when I set out to do this job on a certain Mercedes and discovered the entire valve train to be coated in about 1/16" of tar and discovered the camshaft was merrily grinding its way through the cylinder head!

It's worth noting that the "rule of nine" does NOT apply to this engine.

With exhaust valve 'n' fully open, adjust...(I is inlet, E is exhaust, and note that number 1 is at the FLYWHEEL end of the engine by Renault's numbering convention).

1.  3I, 4E.

3. 4I, 2E.

4. 2I, 1E.

2. 1I, 3E.

Or just look carefully - the camshaft to rocker interface isn't that hard to see, so you can see which rocker is right in the heel of the cam lobe with a bit of patience.

Clearances should be set cold, and call for 0.1mm on the inlet side and 0.25mm on the exhaust side.  They definitely needed a tweak on this engine, especially a couple of the inlet valves which were quite loose.

It's still a bit tappy but is definitely better.  It's also more consistent though, it was really obvious before that one or two were far further out of whack than the rest.

It's worth noting that getting a proper look at the timing gear has allowed me to confirm that this does use a flat tappet lifter arrangement, so WILL want a zinc additive to be added to the oil unless a classic-specific oil is being used.

After a good test run it was time (finally) for an oil and filter change.

Doesn't it look better having that manky, rusty old oil filter out of there?

Immediately makes the engine bay look about 75% less neglected.

I did note however while wrestling with the biblically tight sump plug that I think I'd be best to start looking for a new radiator.

While it's not leaking, there's a good 1/4" of the fins at the bottom of this which are just missing.  I imagine the fins largely consisting of aluminium oxide for a significant portion won't be doing the heat rejection properties any favours.

The oil which came out wasn't horrible but did seem thinner than I'd expect for the book rating (10W 40).  No glittery residue left in the drain pan at least.  Speaking of that...my drain pan is JUST big enough for this...it takes 5.75 litres of oil for a change (I've left it just above half on the dipstick as I'll need to chuck some zinc additive in there once I've got hold of some).

Once it was dark I went out, unplugged the washer pump harness and retook the whole dash photo for the dash at night thread.

I also tried to get some better photos of the central cluster of warning lights on the dash as they're of a style I've not seen all that many places.

Looks pretty traditional for an 80s car, albeit a little stylised with the indicator symbols when unlit.

When lit though the legends are actually brighter than the background. 

Which is an absolute swine to photograph properly.

No matter what I do, the parking brake light's legend always washes out a bit.  I'd spent about ten minutes fighting with exposure settings by that point so decided to call it done!

As someone who has always found the different approaches to instrumentation designs between different manufacturers of interest, it has always been a something that drew my eyes and just looks very smart.  Remember my 11 used a similar arrangement, albeit with more normally shaped lights.  Think in the mid 80s this must have really helped with the futuristic vibe of the whole dash.

Enough dash geekery for now!  

Next job will be replacement of both the alternator and PAS drive belts as they are both loose and badly perished.

I did get a look at the timing belt while standing on my head getting the sump plug off, and I can't see any signs of perishing - though I do still intend to get it changed sooner than later just because it's been on there since 2017 - even if it's barely seen 1500 actual miles of use.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Zelandeth
Added valve lash adjustment sequence

[Zelandeth]

Looks like there are a few options out there for radiators, not cheap but equally not ruinously expensive.  Of course the real challenge will be actually clicking order and seeing if the stock reported does actually exist.  If all else fails it will get a bespoke one made up using the original as a template.  I'd rather not go down that road though as I imagine I'd be looking at well north of £500 for that.

Had a wander down to a car parts shop in Flitwick today (much as it was an excuse to go for a drive somewhere outside of bloody MK as anything else!).  While I failed to find what I was actually looking for, I did find something very much unexpected.

They have quite the selection of models in there, including some quite by today's standards oddball stuff.  I saw a Citroen ZX and GSA to name two - but I was trying not to take forever so didn't browse too far after spotting the 25!

First time I've seen a pre-facelift one in miniature form in person.  Well aside from the Otto 1:18 ones...but I've bought actual cars for less than they change hands for.

[Dobloseven]

Thought of you today, Zel. Went into local GSF, and guess what they'd got hanging up on the tool display rack? A combined Metric and Imperial set as well. 

[bobdisk]

@Zelandeth Did you see if they had a Daf model?

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

Thought of you today, Zel. Went into local GSF, and guess what they'd got hanging up on the tool display rack? A combined Metric and Imperial set as well. 

Well mine now has a specific place in the garage it lives, so hopefully won't be needing another one any time soon!  Next use will probably be in the spring when TPA's valve clearances will be due a check - though in fairness they've never needed touched in my ownership.

Quick and easy job this afternoon on the Renault, throttle body/plate and IAC valve cleaning.  She's a bit lumpy on light throttle, and definitely stumbles more often at idle than I'd really expect.  Though I think you're feeling that more in the car than you should as I think a couple of the engine mounts are a bit tired.  

Given you need to actually unbolt the intake elbow (3x T30 Torx machine screws) to gain access to the throttle body it wouldn't have surprised me to find this had never been done.

Definitely a bit grubby and well due a clean, but it's definitely been done in living memory at least.  IAC valve is nice and easy to get to on this, right on the front of the engine.

So I pulled that off and gave it a good clean while I was in the area.  Wasn't really bad at all but I'd rather know that it's been done.

Haven't had a chance to go for a test run since this has been done yet, not really expecting miracles as nothing was too dirty, but I feel better knowing it's been done.  Plus I can now see there's no evidence of horrific amounts of gunge coming out the PCV system too, though I had no reason to expect that really.

[Zelandeth]

6 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

@Zelandeth Did you see if they had a Daf model?

I didn't notice one, but I fully intend to run by there another day when I have a bit more time so will have a look.  Definitely were a few models from that sort of era so certainly not impossible.

[Dobloseven]

You're putting me to shame! I've had a rocker cover gasket in the boot of my 25 for over a year. Was planning to remove the cover and give it a coat of black paint, as it's a bit scabby. And adjust the clearances while the paint is drying. Mind you, the engine is nice and quiet anyway, but fancied having a go for old times sake. 

[Zelandeth]

22 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

You're putting me to shame! I've had a rocker cover gasket in the boot of my 25 for over a year. Was planning to remove the cover and give it a coat of black paint, as it's a bit scabby. And adjust the clearances while the paint is drying. Mind you, the engine is nice and quiet anyway, but fancied having a go for old times sake. 

Is yours the 8 or 12v engine?  Be curious to see how different the top end is.  It took me less than 20 minutes from opening to closing the garage door to do the job on this car.  It was hastened somewhat by one being plainly way further out than the others (which was the one with the locknut which was an order of magnitude less tight than the other 7).

Think with the weather looking half decent this week one of my goals has to be to get TPA out for the first run in a while - not least so I can arrest the inevitable burying which starts as soon as the car doesn't move for more than 24 hours because getting into the garage is such an utter pain.

Getting this space sorted out into something resembling a usable state really HAS to happen this year as it really is driving me round the twist.

[Dobloseven]

Mine will definitely be 8 valve. 

[Zelandeth]

Not quite sure how I've done 600 miles in this thing already.

Looking at something rather at the other end of the automotive spectrum, it was time to take a quick look at TPA as I'd really like to get her out for a run this week.

First step: Spend half an hour unearthing her!

Photo was actually after she was parked back in the garage, but you get the idea.

One this which was immediately obvious was that the battery (which I was sure was on its last legs at the end of the year anyway) was absolutely dead as a doornail.  It was fully charged after the last run out in November, but didn't have enough juice to even keep the clock going today.  

I'm not too bothered to be honest, this one dates back to pretty much when I got KPL I think - definitely pre-dates TPA hitting the road again, and is just a U1R battery as used on lawn mowers etc, and is about half the price of most car batteries - so even if I only get a three years or so out of this one I'm not going to worry.  

Oil and brake fluid levels were exactly where I'd left them - though I do need to check my records, she may be due an oil change.  

With the fresh battery fitted, I rolled her outside, started her up and wedged the throttle open enough to get us to a fast idle and run the engine up to temperature (or as close as you can really get without being under load anyway).  

About 110C is the highest I think you'll ever see unless actually driving.  Got the clock reset, had a good crawl around the engine bay to check the condition of the fuel lines, filter etc, checked tyre pressures and gave the windscreen a clean.  If the weather is playing nice tomorrow I think she'll make the first appearance of the year to run the day's errands with me.

[LightBulbFun]

Awesome to see TPA coming out to play once more  

23 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I'm not too bothered to be honest, this one dates back to pretty much when I got KPL I think - definitely pre-dates TPA hitting the road again, and is just a U1R battery as used on lawn mowers etc, and is about half the price of most car batteries - so even if I only get a three years or so out of this one I'm not going to worry.  

is that what the battery is then for a Model 70 Mark A? I remember there being some question over what exactly was used other then we know it was a 30Ah Jobby (Mark B's use a 35Ah Ford 037 type that much I do know LOL) but dont recall it ever actually being figured out for Mark A's, so did not realise you nailed it down   because I seem to recall this battery was just pinched from the Sinclair C5 and held down with a suitable home made clamp  

[Zelandeth]

37 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Awesome to see TPA coming out to play once more  

is that what the battery is then for a Model 70 Mark A? I remember there being some question over what exactly was used other then we know it was a 30Ah Jobby (Mark B's use a 35Ah Ford 037 type that much I do know LOL) but dont recall it ever actually being figured out for Mark A's, so did not realise you nailed it down   because I seem to recall this battery was just pinched from the Sinclair C5 and held down with a suitable home made clamp  

The battery I was originally using on KPL was just a 030 (or possibly 036, can't remember) which I "borrowed" from the C5.  That is too large to fit between the bracket posts in the battery tray here, which is what led me to the U1R, as it's one of the few I could find that was small enough to fit between the posts.  The original batteries looked to be an unusually tall but narrow shape.  The U1R doesn't have a flange around either the top or base though, so I had to come up with an alternative setup.  Initially this involved large amounts of zip ties and a couple of bungee cords - but that was improved on with a piece of seatbelt webbing and some threaded rod.  A lot of folks seemed convinced the fumes from the battery would immediately dissolve the webbing, but I gave it a careful examination today and I can't see any signs of decay from when it was fitted, which I'm sure was well over a year ago now.

It's a bit crude but holds the battery perfectly securely.  I could totally trim the threaded sections down a bit now and throw some paint onto the lower bit to make it look a bit more factory fit - but that's a ways down the to do list!

The bottom end of the rods is secured through the holes that are in the battery tray intended for the original clamps - just with a nut both above and below the tray to secure the rods.

 

[Zelandeth]

One new battery.  Which looks surprisingly similar to the old one...just slightly less dusty.

Had TPA out and about today for the first time of the year.  She doesn't seem really worse for wear - though it's only been a couple of months really!  The handbrake does feel a little gummy though so I think some fresh grease may well be in order there.

Hopefully we will be seeing her out and about more as the year progresses.  

I think one upgrade that will be ordered up shortly will be a solid state voltage regulator for the generator, as I've noted that when running at speed with a fully charged battery we're seeing close to 16V.  So that's not going to be doing our battery or the electrical system any favours.

Edit: One solid state voltage regulator ordered.  We'll see how that performs when it arrives.

[LightBulbFun]

17 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I think one upgrade that will be ordered up shortly will be a solid state voltage regulator for the generator, as I've noted that when running at speed with a fully charged battery we're seeing close to 16V.  So that's not going to be doing our battery or the electrical system any favours.

Edit: One solid state voltage regulator ordered.  We'll see how that performs when it arrives.

and here I was screaming at my screen every time @dollywobbler gave the GSA some revs and then took it for a drive!

all those poor dash bulbs! (and whatever little other electronics a GSA has!) seems like its the week for regulators that dont! 

 

I know you said that on long runs right at the end she would run not 100% I wonder if that was the coil getting a bit warm from running at 16V rather then 12V?

I also wonder why the regulator has stopped regulating! something for the teardown bench?  

 

it will of course be very interesting to see/hear how the solid-state regulator works out, do you think it will also help the system charge at idle or is that just a limitation of the Dynamo-part of the dynastart?

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

and here I was screaming at my screen every time @dollywobbler gave the GSA some revs and then took it for a drive!

all those poor dash bulbs! (and whatever little other electronics a GSA has!) seems like its the week for regulators that dont! 

 

I know you said that on long runs right at the end she would run not 100% I wonder if that was the coil getting a bit warm from running at 16V rather then 12V?

I also wonder why the regulator has stopped regulating! something for the teardown bench?  

 

it will of course be very interesting to see/hear how the solid-state regulator works out, do you think it will also help the system charge at idle or is that just a limitation of the Dynamo-part of the dynastart?

My thoughts precisely on the coil/points getting hot.  It definitely won't have been doing them any favours that's for certain.  Whether it actually makes any difference will remain to be seen.

I reckon it's always been like this, I just don't think the cut out side of things at the high end ever does.  The drivetrain setup though means it only really becomes an issue at the high end above about 50mph, so only really becomes visible once I turn out of MK onto the M1 or A5.

I'll be curious to see how it performs once fitted, though it seems to be an upgrade that folks swear by in the air cooled VW world.  Keeping in mind that the Beetle has a generator that's somewhat awkward to upgrade to an alternator (unless you have very deep pockets) on account of the layout.  So there's incentive there to get the original configuration to work as well as possible.

It'll never charge at idle, that's just a fundamental limitation of how generators work Vs alternators.  You just need more rpm to get useful voltage out of them.  Hopefully the cut in point will be brought down a bit though.  It's hard to say what's down to limitations of the system and the regulator not being in the best health though.

[Zelandeth]

Package arrived this morning containing the correct handbook for the Renault.

As a couple of folks had correctly pointed out, the one that came with the car was for a Phase 2 car, so wasn't the original.

Now I just need to find a copy of the Renault Audio handbook which would have accompanied it.

The Renault is also in the bad books today as it broke something without me even touching it.

Not immediately obvious, but the rear of that sunroof has dropped.  I shut the driver's door and heard something go *thud...tink...rattle...* from right above my head.

It appears that the sliding section isn't actually properly attached to the sled - as I have to manually push the panel back though the mechanism is clearly moving freely.  It will close itself up to the point when the rear should pop up to sit flush with the roof.

Things are not all well.  I'm guessing things like this shouldn't be sitting in the gutters.

I can see similar looking things on the driver's side and bits of broken black plastic.

I have a horrible feeling that even if I can find (or make) replacements for whatever has broken, that installing it is going to involve having to remove the whole cassette...which will mean removing the headlining.  Sure that will be an absolute barrel of laughs...

I wouldn't mind so much if I'd tried to open the sunroof, but I'd been deliberately NOT attempting to open it until later in the year!

 

So I took TPA out for the daily duties instead.

Wound up covering just under 90 miles between running several local errands and a run over to Bicester to pick up some developed film.  

Added to my to do list for this year (hopefully) is what would normally be the front crankshaft seal (the one at the pulley end), as it leaves a couple of drips when the engine is switched off.  Doesn't seem to leak appreciably when running and she's never used any appreciable oil between changes, but there's definitely a bit of seepage going on shortly after stopping.  That's going to be a bit of a faff to change as the rear engine mount is just *slightly* in the way.

Not worrying about it, but want to get it on the to do list formally while it's in my mind.

Also I really need to get the car jacked up and have a good crawl around underneath.  I've had a lot of stuff apart on this car, and she's done a decent number of miles since I bolted everything back together now.

[Zelandeth]

Today's delivery for the fleet:

Which contained this.

Quick consultation with the workshop manual allowed me to confirm which wires go where.

Plus a trial fit showed the mounting bolts to be exactly the same as on the current regulator.

The only obvious difference is that three of the terminals on the new one require spade connectors whereas they're all horseshoe connectors bolted onto the original unit, so I'll need to re-terminate three of the lines.  I'll likely do the generator output one too unless it looks absolutely pristine.  There isn't much slack in this wiring so I don't want to go trimming ends off anything I don't have to though.

Interesting to see the new unit is made up of two distinct modules.

I'm guessing the smarts of the unit are in the lower bit and there are some chunky semiconductors mounted to the upper part which actually do the work.  Sadly in the absence of owning an X-ray machine that's as far as my examination can really go.

Unfortunately I've run out of steam for tasks requiring brain power today, so it's just going to have to wait till the weekend for me to install.

Given the potential for me to break expensive or difficult to replace hardware if I foul it up, I'd rather not be messing with things like this when I'm not feeling 100%.

Should be a pretty simple job though.  I'll likely take the opportunity to upgrade the wire between the B+ terminal and the positive lug on the starter solenoid (which is where the battery positive is tapped from).  It looks rather weedy to me for something that's intended to see up to 20A if the generator is running flat out.  Given there are two terminals provided on the new regulator I may just run a dedicated heavier gauge line direct to the battery for the charging side of things.

[bobdisk]

@Zelandeth This looks like it could be a good upgrade for the Daf ! Where did you get it and how much was it ??