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Zelandeth

Zel's Motoring Adventures...Lada, Citroen, Mercedes & AC Model 70 - 06/10 - Window Winder Bodge-fest!

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8 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

hmm they are not from a Reliant of some kind are they?

i know the Reliants of the time also used similar setups

Sadly not, they seem to use the same splined studs as the Mini etc.

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I had a Herald 1200 estate many moons ago. I remember replacing the studs but they were interference/force fit splined type.

Febi Bilstein does a vast range of wheel studs including many which have a threaded fixing. Unfortunately, they are listed against applications and have metric thread sizes rather than giving dimensions. Perhaps one of theirs could be found if yours have metric threads.  Alternatively, assuming you can't find a spare hub with salvageable studs for sale anywhere, could a local machine shop replicate yours for a modest sum?  Studs for normal vehicles seem to be in the £7-£12 range (each).

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It looks like those are general purpose studs fitted into a redrilled fiat? Hub , the other unused wheel bolt holes may be on 98mm pcd with the 2 wheel locating peg holes, possibly fiat 500 wheels may bolt straight on with m12 wheel bolts but that's purely a guess ! 

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The fact that Fiat 126 wheels bolt on rather than using studs (and that's where the trailing arm setup was sourced from) did make me wonder whether some of the existing holes might be for metric wheel bolts.

One of the smaller threaded holes is definitely metric - had a bolt in there earlier to help stop the hub rotating when I was trying to unscrew stuff.

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3 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

it does rather look like they just took normal off the shelf Fiat 500/126 hub, and then drilled them for 4x100 studs after the fact

 

image.thumb.png.bdc0a56bc217f94f721867756a747936.png

 

(I wonder what the 2 smaller holes are for?)

I'd have sworn that they would have been imperial thread but when you think about it, as they bought in the transmission, it's odds on that it will be metric. 

Or is that the clue, the existing holes ARE metric, but that being British, they drilled and tapped imperial holes in the flange to take standard UK treaded studs, which to me, would make sense back on the 70's. And the small holes will be for holding on the drum in it's original application.

My suggestion would be get a set of metric wheel nuts thats the correct size and length, and a couple of small screws to hold the drum on.

As an aside, what size socket did they / you use to get the nuts off, and has it an imperial equivalent?

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2 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

I'd have sworn that they would have been imperial thread but when you think about it, as they bought in the transmission, it's odds on that it will be metric. 

Or is that the clue, the existing holes ARE metric, but that being British, they drilled and tapped imperial holes in the flange to take standard UK treaded studs, which to me, would make sense back on the 70's. And the small holes will be for holding on the drum in it's original application.

My suggestion would be get a set of metric wheel nuts thats the correct size and length, and a couple of small screws to hold the drum on.

As an aside, what size socket did they / you use to get the nuts off, and has it an imperial equivalent?

well the above picture is of (supposedly) a Model 70 hub, you can see the 4x100 studs like on TPA, but you can also see the 4 holes that would of been for the Fiat wheels plus the 2 smaller holes

The Gearbox was actually one of the few things on the Model 70 that was not brought in :) but the suspension/diff is all Fiat 500/126 bits

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Really wish I still had my box of thread gauges.  They were one of those tools you didn't use hugely often, but saved biblical amounts of head scratching at times like this.

If incould just get away with using wheel bolts into the other holes that would be a hugely preferable option...will need to find out what the holes actually are and the spacing...

If I could use that it would save me a lot of faff as the mangled remains of that one stud could just be dealt with by attacking it with the grinder then...rather than messing around and probably to fail tapping it and wind up welding a nut to the thing and probably snapping it in the process...

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17 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Really wish I still had my box of thread gauges.  They were one of those tools you didn't use hugely often, but saved biblical amounts of head scratching at times like this.

If incould just get away with using wheel bolts into the other holes that would be a hugely preferable option...will need to find out what the holes actually are and the spacing...

If I could use that it would save me a lot of faff as the mangled remains of that one stud could just be dealt with by attacking it with the grinder then...rather than messing around and probably to fail tapping it and wind up welding a nut to the thing and probably snapping it in the process...

I think the issue with using the other holes is that they are 4x98 I think where as the wheels on a Model 70 (and Mini etc) are 4x100

still worth checking tho :) 

I was wondering however on that note, on the 4x100 holes, can you not just get rid of studs entirely and use bolts or is that not possible?

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think the issue with using the other holes is that they are 4x98 I think where as the wheels on a Model 70 (and Mini etc) are 4x100

still worth checking tho :) 

I was wondering however on that note, on the 4x100 holes, can you not just get rid of studs entirely and use bolts or is that not possible?

And I'd guess that's why they drilled and tapped the extra holes, to take a Mini wheel which would have been cheaper than buying Fiat wheels.

There's no reason why you cannot fit bolts instead of studs, BUT, you need the chamfer on them to be the same as the Mini wheels so they fit and hold the wheel on correctly.

I've fucked about with such a set up before, but I'm buggered if I can remember what shite it was on. Rootes?

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interesting :) 

18 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

And I'd guess that's why they drilled and tapped the extra holes, to take a Mini wheel which would have been cheaper than buying Fiat wheels.

 

the Model 70 actually originally used 12 inch wheels off, im not sure what to be honest!

a bit later after the Model 70 Mark B was introduced they moved to 10 inch Mini wheels, which have the same hole pattern as the 12 inch wheels, hence zel being able to put 10 inch wheels on TPA, an originally 12 inch wheel Model 70

(I had thought that the change from 12 to 10 inch wheels happened with the Model 70 Mark B, however there are pictures of Early Model 70 Mark Bs on 12 inch wheels, so im 100% sure when the change happened exactly)

 

(im not sure what size wheels the Fiat 500/Fiat 126 have But I dont think they where 12/10 inch hence why i imagine AC drilled the hubs for 4x100 studs/wheels)

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I'll look to get those holes measured tomorrow to see what we've got.

Be really annoying if the PCD doesn't match for the sake of 2mm!

Really annoying that Fiat have brought back the 500 model name as it's doing a cracking job of diluting web searches with modern tat.

In slightly better news a nice little package arrived from Tipper's Vintage & Classic Plates.

IMG_20190903_180739.thumb.jpg.6c872a34bc74a7d5d49ac013f6300c6e.jpg

IMG_20190903_180733.thumb.jpg.70a8cf6ab99db0f587ee8fe894ff838d.jpg

These will look far better than the current horribly delaminated acrylic ones.  They're actually properly  retro reflective too unlike the current ones which have turned transparent.

IMG_20190903_180748.thumb.jpg.2e5a79ee0ac64878af9a83afd7f27447.jpg

Very much looking forward to seeing these on the car.

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@Six-cylinder has a bundle of thread gauges, so you could bring the studs over to ours and have a go with those?

What does the Model 70 Parts Manual say about the wheel studs? They will have a part number, I'd think, that can be checked out on the web.

Failing that, the chap who had REV and Dolly may be able to advise further...

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4 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

@Six-cylinder has a bundle of thread gauges, so you could bring the studs over to ours and have a go with those?

What does the Model 70 Parts Manual say about the wheel studs? They will have a part number, I'd think, that can be checked out on the web.

Failing that, the chap who had REV and Dolly may be able to advise further...

Might we'll take you up on that.  Studs got a bit mangled being removed, but hopefully should be possible to get a good read from at least one.

The parts manual helpfully just has "hub assy c/w wheel studs" and an STY stock code (which I can't remember right now)...I'll double check that in the morning.  It doesn't list studs as a separate part.  Looks like a failure of a stud would have prompted the whole hub to be swapped out as a unit back in the day.

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1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

I'll look to get those holes measured tomorrow to see what we've got.

Be really annoying if the PCD doesn't match for the sake of 2mm!

Really annoying that Fiat have brought back the 500 model name as it's doing a cracking job of diluting web searches with modern tat.

In slightly better news a nice little package arrived from Tipper's Vintage & Classic Plates.

IMG_20190903_180739.thumb.jpg.6c872a34bc74a7d5d49ac013f6300c6e.jpg

IMG_20190903_180733.thumb.jpg.70a8cf6ab99db0f587ee8fe894ff838d.jpg

These will look far better than the current horribly delaminated acrylic ones.  They're actually properly  retro reflective too unlike the current ones which have turned transparent.

IMG_20190903_180748.thumb.jpg.2e5a79ee0ac64878af9a83afd7f27447.jpg

Very much looking forward to seeing these on the car.

those plates look lovely! I cant wait to see them on TPA :) 

(indeed I found the same issue on fiat 500's when I tried to quickly find wheel info on them)

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4 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

(indeed I found the same issue on fiat 500's when I tried to quickly find wheel info on them)

 

A good friend has an original Panda (which I've tried to buy probably a dozen times... they're cars which have an incredible way of getting under your skin and are somehow so much more than the sum of their parts) and the regularity with which I encountered them hurling expletives at his computer and parts catalogues increased exponentially when Fiat launched the "New Panda" however many years I'm not looking up because it will make me feel ancient ago...

Even worse these days though as search engines seem to take great pleasure in completely ignoring what you've actually searched for anyway!

54 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

Mrs6C has just reported that you may need my thread gauges so I have been in the garage and looked them out. I even found my engineers data book so if I can help just contact me.

IMG_20190903_235210 broad.jpg

Cheers for that.  I'll drop you/Mrs6C to see if someone would be about over the next couple of days to assist me in examining these studs to ID them.

Question time.

Given the threads are identical on both sides (at least I think they are - we'll check obviously), is there any particular reason that appropriate wheel bolts couldn't be used?  Obviously we would need to carefully check the necessary length...but at the end of the day, it's just clamping the wheel to the hub (and sandwiching the brake drum in there).  These are essentially just a bolt without a head on them...

I'd guess separate studs are used as it's theoretically easier to repair if someone damages one (just replace a stud rather than having to worry about repairing stripped threads in the hub - a problem many a Lada owner has faced as the threads in their rear hubs were made of cheese on a lot of cars!) - but my guess is that it's far more likely to be a case of being because it's what they had on hand.

I'll most likely just replace these studs once we work out what they are and call it a day (after VERY carefully checking those on the other wheels too) but if I'm honest, I really don't like studded hubs... especially quite skinny ones like these.  If there's a proper non-bodgy way to do a conversion to use wheel bolts I'd definitely be in favour of considering it.  Probably purely psychological given one of my earliest memories of working on cars was seeing my father snap a stud on his Minivan, but they just seem less robust to my mind.

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3 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Question time.

Given the threads are identical on both sides (at least I think they are - we'll check obviously), is there any particular reason that appropriate wheel bolts couldn't be used?  Obviously we would need to carefully check the necessary length...but at the end of the day, it's just clamping the wheel to the hub (and sandwiching the brake drum in there).  These are essentially just a bolt without a head on them...

I'd guess separate studs are used as it's theoretically easier to repair if someone damages one (just replace a stud rather than having to worry about repairing stripped threads in the hub - a problem many a Lada owner has faced as the threads in their rear hubs were made of cheese on a lot of cars!) - but my guess is that it's far more likely to be a case of being because it's what they had on hand.

I'll most likely just replace these studs once we work out what they are and call it a day (after VERY carefully checking those on the other wheels too) but if I'm honest, I really don't like studded hubs... especially quite skinny ones like these.  If there's a proper non-bodgy way to do a conversion to use wheel bolts I'd definitely be in favour of considering it.  Probably purely psychological given one of my earliest memories of working on cars was seeing my father snap a stud on his Minivan, but they just seem less robust to my mind.

 

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I was wondering however on that note, on the 4x100 holes, can you not just get rid of studs entirely and use bolts or is that not possible?

 

3 hours ago, busmansholiday said:

There's no reason why you cannot fit bolts instead of studs, BUT, you need the chamfer on them to be the same as the Mini wheels so they fit and hold the wheel on correctly.

 

 

nothing like a good ol quote train! :mrgreen:

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Are you sure the holes in the hubs on model 70's are 100 mm pcd and not 101.6 mm?

Logically, to me, they should be the latter as that's 4" which when you consider when the mini was designed, in the late 50's, everything was imperial.

I've actually looked up old pcd info and the mini was 4", presumably 100 is a nice round number.

This might help.

https://www.wheeldictionary.net/

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I may be wrong here, but I believe the 12 inch wheels used in early production are Reliant Regal items.

 

Perhaps the studs are also of Reliant Regal origins?

 

EDIT: This looks promising.

 

d41821525a0983a5b28629914a19a985.jpg

 

https://m.ebay.ie/itm/Reliant-regal-wheel-rear-axle-stud-No6611-325-330-supervan-3-rebel-classic-car-1-/153473716140?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1

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If original studs aren't readily available, it surely wouldn't be that expensive to have new studs turned up. That way you could also make the thread that goes into the hub a larger diameter which would go some way to mitigating the hilariously short threaded length currently in the hub and also make having to drill out any recalcitrant studs a non-issue ?

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52 minutes ago, MorrisItalSLX said:

I may be wrong here, but I believe the 12 inch wheels used in early production are Reliant Regal items.

 

Perhaps the studs are also of Reliant Regal origins?

 

EDIT: This looks promising.

 

d41821525a0983a5b28629914a19a985.jpg

 

https://m.ebay.ie/itm/Reliant-regal-wheel-rear-axle-stud-No6611-325-330-supervan-3-rebel-classic-car-1-/153473716140?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1

Price is a bit steep, and they only have five.

Wheel nuts, 3/8 unf, are easily available as many small trailers use them. Towsure in Sheffield have them at 75p a pop, but not the studs you need.

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3 hours ago, MorrisItalSLX said:

I may be wrong here, but I believe the 12 inch wheels used in early production are Reliant Regal items.

 

Perhaps the studs are also of Reliant Regal origins?

 

EDIT: This looks promising.

 

d41821525a0983a5b28629914a19a985.jpg

 

https://m.ebay.ie/itm/Reliant-regal-wheel-rear-axle-stud-No6611-325-330-supervan-3-rebel-classic-car-1-/153473716140?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1

13" on the Regal I believe. Not that this would affect stud size necessarily.

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      I took a look around under there, it's nearly all shot. Most ball joints are exposed to the elements so all need replacing but not before a decent jet wash.
       

       

       
      There's little play in the joints so all that goes on the list of parts and graft! Wheels on, I loosened and torqued all the wheel nuts around the car and done the Tyre pressures, we were running soft all round.
       
      Next was the front lights. A screw mod can be done but I took the back off the units and they were, well toast. Nothing much holding the inner lenses still at all. There was only one thing for it...
       

       
      I had readied myself for this. I got hold of a replacement lamp mounting kit with all parts made from nylon. This involved dissecting the lamp which was tough! The mounts that came out, or what was left of them were weaker than Jacobs crackers and just crumbled. To get the bumper off, the plastic under tray bolts were all seized so I had to grind them off. More knackered parts were seen. The auto box cooler has shed most of it's cooling fins, the radiator is sweating and the power steering is hemorrhaging fluid on full lock. There's also a coolant leak at the thermostat housing and there's a high pitch whine at 1000 RPM which turns out to be the alternator. More for the list.
      Still, back to the lights. I need to be able to see tonight so I took a level off the tourings lights and marked on to a wheely bin, these are pretty spot on. Then I can use the bin for the Jaags lights and I won't be far off 
       

       
      Going back together nicely it was a good time to run some tcut over the faded lenses. They need a more intense compound and a machine but will do for now.
       

       
      Looks smart yo!
       
      Then it got dark...
       

       
      I then drove 120 miles in it and drove it like it was stolen. It had it, all of it! Slight brake judder at 90 and I couldn't get the alignment done as I had no time (see above pics)
       
      So now we have to price up priorities like the knackered joints on the rear and a full service, two Goodyears and investigate the power steering leak which, I'll hazard a guess at the rack seals are fubard. 
       
      So in summary, I got a bargain barge that has it's fair share of issues, the interior quality is a bit shocking in places but when the hammer is down, none of this matters! It fits in, it can be a proper giffer cruiser with radio two on at 30mph but it'll turn into a bruiser with some oldskool hardcore at a tonne. It's come to a good home.
    • By strangeangel
      I thought I'd start a thread for this as I'll probably end up asking all sorts of questions, given that this is my first 'proper' Citroën.
       
      So... the ground clearance lever won't go all the way to the highest setting (all others work), which is bad 'cos the book says I need it to do that in order to check the LHM level. It feels like something's seized, so I don't want to force it. Any ideas for a plan of attack would be much appreciated.
       
      Next up are the wheels. I now have a set of 205 pepperpots that have just gone off for powder coating & I need to get some tyres for them. The handbook says the car should have 165/70R14s on, the wheels came with 185/65R14 on. Any thoughts about what size I should get please? Cheers.
       
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