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Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - 25/03 - Trabant back in action...


Zelandeth

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On 6/26/2020 at 11:41 PM, Zelandeth said:

Nobody this side of the Atlantic seems to have the compressor to condenser hose actually in stock, despite a number of places listing it.  My local hydraulic guy I'd usually use for this sort of things is only doing trade work at the moment. Fair enough.

I'm about to order a few more fittings and hose from places both sides of the Atlantic - if you let me know the hose details I can price up getting the bits and making one?

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58 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

They were really quite sophisticated for their time.  From what I've gathered battery maintenance is the biggest headache with them generally.  Given that one's been sitting so long the batteries will inevitably be deader than a dodo and unless my memory was completely failing me, were based on a pretty unique chemistry (not a dissimilar situation to the Pug 106/Berlingo etc electric) which wasn't widely used, so replacing them isn't likely to be viable unless you wanted to go down the road of converting it to something more modern and obviously then having to also upgrade the charger, probably the motor controller and maybe even motor unless you matched the voltage and current requirements...and even then you're left with a rusty Bedford CF which still needs complete recommissioning, and even once up and running will struggle to top 50mph.

interesting stuff!, I have wondered what their setup is, although I never actually googled to see if there was any info out there on them!

59 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

There was a metallic green one in what appeared to be some form of "day van" configuration parked outside our house back in 1981...Interesting to see that the grill on that very prominently had "Lucas Electric" shown on it in addition to the usual Bedford name, that must have been dropped in later years.  Quite surprised they were still making them four years later to be honest.

yeah thats one of the reasons why I shared it here :) plus much like myself I know you like  old electronics and old/quirky vehicles and this sits quite well in the middle of  the 2 :) 

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

I'm assuming that the blue thing sitting in the back of it is the charger...That's quite interesting in itself as I've never seen one before.  Likewise seeing the dash, again I wasn't aware that they were kitted out to use regenerative braking - that's definitely ahead of its time for an electric road vehicle.

yeah I do wonder what that is! its looks to be very large for charger!  unless its got a couple great big MARs in the back, but id expect them to have moved onto something else by the 1980s! LOL

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Ooh...Leave it with me.  I'll measure up the OD of the metal lines at either end tomorrow and let you know.  Making a "conventional" A/C hose and just cutting the metal lines either side of it and inserting via either a compression or flare fittings seems the way to go...Especially as one end already has a bloody flare within a couple of inches of one end anyway!  The inner ID of the hose is of course the same as the OD of the metal lines given the way it's set up.

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Flare fittings I think are much more common in the US, and I'll be ordering from this place so if you can match up the fittings so much the better!

https://coldhose.com/fittings/flare.html

The only hose I have in stock is reduced barrier, but not a problem to get normal diameters if that opens up a choice of fittings.

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16 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Flare fittings I think are much more common in the US, and I'll be ordering from this place so if you can match up the fittings so much the better!

https://coldhose.com/fittings/flare.html

The only hose I have in stock is reduced barrier, but not a problem to get normal diameters if that opens up a choice of fittings.

That'll be 1/2" then...

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So our most local stainless exhaust specialist still looks to be closed.  To be honest I'd rather be using another one over in Cambridge, so getting that looked at is likely to be on hold for a while.  It's also about item 28374638 on the priority list.  The horribly out of alignment tips had to go though as they made it look like I'd reversed into a low wall and made my OCD twitch every time I walked up to the car.

The only way I could make them sit even with each other resulted in them pointing upwards by about 20 degrees, meaning the system filled up with water whenever it rained.

The purists will hate me for it, but I reckon this both solves my immediate issue and actually looks better than the stock exhaust tip arrangement anyway.

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No it's not stock, but I think it doesn't look out of place.

The spindly little double elbow looks right on the saloons, but something like this suits the XJ-S better.

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What was that metal sheet about then?

Well I noticed something when I last had the tail pipes off.  They're just deresonators, so a straight through pipe with a perforated section surrounded by wadding.  You can see straight through them.

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This got me thinking...Could I be really sneaky and essentially just bypass the wadding by slipping a sleeve in?  Longer term I do intend to have some proper straight through tailpipes made up...but with the world being a bit nuts at the moment it looks like it will be a while before that's really viable...so time to experiment.

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This was just the rough cut, things were trimmed back to fit nicer before I actually tried this.  I figured given the way things are designed it's dead easy to remove again (it only takes five minutes to pull the back boxes) it was a worthy experiment. 

The plus side is that thanks to the shape of the silencer, the cranked bit is on the outlet...so the only way the sleeve can come out is back through the inlet side, so there's really no way that it could fall out the pipe while driving or anything daft like that.  It does mean that section has lost about 0.75mm worth of cross section...but I doubt that really makes any difference...it's still about 10mm wider than where it passes over the rear axle.

Did it work?

Seems so!  Bit later in the day I went out for a proper test run.

I'll take that as a win!  That's pretty much exactly the sort of balance I was after.  A nice growl at the low end, a proper howl above 3500rpm, but no real drone at either 60 or 70mph which I was most worried about.  I think the car sounds like it looks like it should now...

Yeah...I think we have our blueprint for getting something made up properly down the road.

I really need to get a new phone case that doesn't rattle annoyingly when recording video.

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Nope, the standard ones have a very similar double-elbow tip to the saloons.  The outlet on the tailpipes on this (it's a built-on-the-car type stainless system) are at a slightly different angle to the originals so there was no way to make them sit properly, so they needed to be changed as it was making my OCD itch. 

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I have always preferred the look of the curved tips (and it means I won't leave sooty marks on the van) so grabbed a couple here...I personally think this suits the car better.  That's very much a personal choice though!

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The ominous sounding ticking/chuffing noise has been identified.  It's an inlet manifold leak right next to the injector for cylinder 6A.

I could tell pretty much for certain that it was nothing to do with the exhaust because it was coming from the wrong place.  It seemed to be coming from within the V rather than the outside.  Hence me wondering if it was combustion gases leaking by the plug or possibly signs of a leaking head gasket.

Then I noticed a bit of oily residue (because everything is covered in oil) that was "wobbling" in an odd way on the manifold to head joint just forward of the fuel injector.

I was just about able to capture this on camera, though access is appalling, because V12.

Reasonably sure this is the source of it as if I stick a bit of grease on the end of my finger and put it there the ticking immediately stops.  Though this is the first time I've ever heard a leaky exhaust manifold like tick from a leak on the inlet side.

Well as the inlet manifolds are scheduled to come off as soon as the injection parts arrive anyway that should be sorted at the same time as obviously new manifold gaskets will be going on then.

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Got around to actually blanking off the water supply to the toilet in the van so that I can still use the sinks to wash my hands when I'm out with the dogs etc.  After scratching my head for about twenty minutes I eventually found something which was precisely the right size.

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Slightly unconventional, but it works!  Still really irked by this fault as sorting it is going to require me to dismantle about 60% of the bathroom.  Whether the toilet itself gets repaired or replaced will basically depend on how impossible to get into the casing it is.  I suspect that rusted screws will be the order of the day.  If it puts up much of a fight it will probably be replaced.

Have started to do a little bit of cleaning up in the Jag's engine bay while I was hunting for the ticking noise, just to make it slightly less unpleasant to touch.  To be honest I really just need to hit the whole engine bay with the degreaser and pressure washer as there is just so much caked on congealed oil in a lot of places it's not even funny.  The timing cover on A bank has obviously been leaking in such a way that it's dripped onto the alternator fan, which has done a fantastic job of liberally coating that entire quarter of the engine bay from sump to bonnet level in the stuff.  Also explains why the belt keeps slipping!

There were a couple of obvious leaks I could easily do something about short term though - the PCV connection into the manifold on B bank had obviously been weeping slightly for decades, just isn't a particularly snug fit on the barb the hose sits on.  One hose clip added to hopefully resolve that problem.

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It's very obvious where I've given the inlet manifold a bit of a scrub around where the oil was..So the manifolds *will* clean up okay with a bit of a scrub.  Just a shame so little of them is actually accessible!

Information labels are actually in surprisingly good shape under the grime.

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The whole lot really needs a darn good scrub from top to bottom.  I'll probably look to give it a going over once before I start pulling manifolds off as I really want to reduce the odds of me dropping gunk into the engine - though properly blasting all the crud off the lower areas may as well wait until after I've sorted the cam cover gaskets as I'm reasonably sure that's where about 90% of the oil is coming from.  Though getting rid of at least some of it will help show up what's historic and what's still currently escaping.  I've never had to actually top the oil up - but having said that it does take something like 11.5 litres of it so you need to lose quite a bit I imagine before it will show on the dipstick!

If anyone enjoys the really fiddly work associated with detailing engine bays...Be my guest!

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The immediate urgent job for the Jag though is tyres. 

What I hadn't spotted when I looked at them originally (and observed that there's excessive wear on the inner shoulder), was that the driver's side one is worn far more badly on half its rotation to the other half - and it was the good side that I originally looked at.  It's still legal as the tread is still above the legal limit over more than 75% of the width of the tyre and it's not down to the cords or anything like that, but it definitely needs changing now.  The fact that it's got about 0.75mm more tread on half the tyre than the other probably accounts for the horrible out-of-balance like vibration at specific speeds.

The rears have plenty of tread, but are pretty cheap, the best part of ten years old, and starting to perish in several spots.  As with the front ones, they are also the wrong size.  The car is currently fitted with 205/75 R15 tyres with a speed rating of H.  It should be wearing 215/70 R15 W tyres really.  I can't recall what load rating they are, but definitely lower than what's stated as being OEM fitment.

This size doesn't give me a huge amount of variety for appropriate rubber, it's a very common size for van tyres so you have to do a bit of sifting through the listings to find what is actually applicable.

While I'd love to fit the Pirelli Cinturatos that were original spec - at £400 odd each, that just isn't happening.  Much as my sense of order would enjoy actually having the specific tyres listed in the handbook on the car.  It needs to be a period looking tyre though, something with a very modern tread pattern would just look violently out of place on a car like the Jag.  Plus I'd really prefer a tyre with a nice squidgy sidewall like would originally have been fitted to ensure we get as decent a ride as possible.

The one I seem to keep coming back to is the Vredestein Sprint Classic, which the cheapest I've found so far is £224 apiece on MyTyres over here.

If anyone has seen them cheaper anywhere else please feel free to sing out.  Camskill are one provider I've heard a lot of people mention, however they only have two tyres available in this size, and they're both van types. 

Pretty much wherever I go, that bill is still going to sting!

Still waiting for the air conditioning pulley puller to arrive.  I got duped by a dodgy Amazon page again, which proudly proclaims to be a UK based seller in several locations...however has a tiny asterisk and states in about 0.2pt text "Goods may be dispatched from our warehouse in the People's Republic of China."  So that will turn up at some point down the road...precisely when though is anyone's guess.  At least it's not massively urgent.

Had to make another run up the motorway today and can confirm that the exhaust is not at all obtrusive at speed, which is nice.  The cruise control is also behaving far better now I've adjusted the cable a bit so the actuator is actually pulling the cable straight rather than at about 30 degrees as it was before.

I imagine once the tyres and brakes are done it will be like a different car to drive.

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Great problem solving on the engine tick. I reckon the choice of tyre you have come up with is pretty spot on. It just doesn’t seem to be value for money going for those really top end brands when many of the mid-range brands are really have a come a long way. As you say the next massive improvement out of the Jag you will gain from fresh rubber so it will  exciting to hear how it goes with new tyres/tracking done.

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49 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Got around to actually blanking off the water supply to the toilet in the van so that I can still use the sinks to wash my hands when I'm out with the dogs etc.  After scratching my head for about twenty minutes I eventually found something which was precisely the right size.

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had a proper LOLWUT moment before I read the accompanying text :) (had wondered if it had been rigged up as some sort of DIY Boot light or something such with wires running down the pipe etc)

50 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Much as my sense of order would enjoy actually having the specific tyres listed in the handbook on the car.

if it makes you feel better the Camac BC110 5.20-10 which is the "OE" spec tyre for the 10 inch wheeled Model 70 is still available at significantly cheaper then £400 a corner! although still about twice as expensive as a good 145R10 from what I have seen, so im not sure why someone might want to go for them!

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Well it looks like £224 each is about as good as it's going to get.

MyTyres: £224 EA Inc fitting.
Openeo: £224 EA + Fitting.
Black Circles: Not Available.
Vintage Tyres: £309.60 + Fitting.
Just Tyres: Not Available.
Camskill: Not Available.
Mr. Tyre: Not Available.
Formula 1: Not Available.
National: Not Available.
Tyres Direct: Not Available.
Kwik-Fit: Not Available.
Tyre Leader: £225 Inc Fitting.
Costco: Not Available.
ATS: Not Available.

There are a few cheaper options out there, but the idea of putting budget tyres on a 1700kg, 300bhp rear drive sports coupe seems a bit of a poor move.  It's just not a car which you should skimp on it feels like.

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Tyres look like it will indeed be the Vredsteins.  The cheaper options I was looking at don't have the correct speed rating.  The only tyres I can find in 215/70 R 15 with the correct ratings are the Vredstein Sprint Classic, Pirelli P5, or Good Year Sport Classic.  Plus a couple of proper re-issues of old types which cost silly money.  The Vredstein and Good Year tyres are roughly comparable on price but I've never been impressed with a Good Year tyre, so will probably head for the Vredstein.  Pirellis are a little more expensive yet don't seem to have anything particular to recommend them over anything else.

Will check with a couple of places locally just to see if they can do any reasonable deals, failing that will get them ordered soon.

Jag got a wash today as it was turning more grey than black again, aside from the front wheels which were turning black.

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Really doesn't scrub up bad.

Biggest cleaning type job though was busting out the degreaser and hitting the engine bay before I did the rest of the car.

To say it's clean would be a vast overstatement, but it's a lot cleanER than it was.  I was actually blowing sizable chunks out from the V of the engine.  Before and after from the same rough angle for reference.

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Looks a bit more presentable...plus means I can actually do things like topping up the screenwash without getting covered in oil now.

I meant to go back and do the fan  it forgot...so will need to go back to that.

A lot of people just about pass out in terror when I mention going near engines with pressure washers, much less in British cars that are this complex.  However I've never had any real issues to date, this one included.  I had a bit of a miss on the right bank until things warmed up - which I'm simply taking as an indication that my HT leads aren't at their best.  They could well be original for all I know, so fair enough.  Not an expensive bit to replace after all, albeit a bit fiddly.  Will get a set ordered in, planning on doing the plugs while I've got the inlet manifolds off and can actually get at things anyway.

Edited by Zelandeth
added "before" image
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On 6/29/2020 at 9:15 PM, Zelandeth said:

They were really quite sophisticated for their time.  From what I've gathered battery maintenance is the biggest headache with them generally.  Given that one's been sitting so long the batteries will inevitably be deader than a dodo and unless my memory was completely failing me, were based on a pretty unique chemistry (not a dissimilar situation to the Pug 106/Berlingo etc electric) which wasn't widely used, so replacing them isn't likely to be viable unless you wanted to go down the road of converting it to something more modern and obviously then having to also upgrade the charger, probably the motor controller and maybe even motor unless you matched the voltage and current requirements...and even then you're left with a rusty Bedford CF which still needs complete recommissioning, and even once up and running will struggle to top 50mph.

Don't get me wrong...If I had somewhere to put it and the time and money to restore it I'd absolutely love to take it on...but I haven't.

There was a metallic green one in what appeared to be some form of "day van" configuration parked outside our house back in 1981...Interesting to see that the grill on that very prominently had "Lucas Electric" shown on it in addition to the usual Bedford name, that must have been dropped in later years.  Quite surprised they were still making them four years later to be honest.

I fear that one is almost definitely destined to be broken up as a parts donor given the *relatively* solid appearance of it, and the fact that all the trim and such appears to be present and in pretty good shape.

I'm assuming that the blue thing sitting in the back of it is the charger...That's quite interesting in itself as I've never seen one before.  Likewise seeing the dash, again I wasn't aware that they were kitted out to use regenerative braking - that's definitely ahead of its time for an electric road vehicle.

i have been a passenger in the back of this at a Lucas electric vehicle open day

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this

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and this were also present

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and Phil the Greek had this fellow to wobble around in

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me dads bestie from uni was the gaffer at Evelyn rd so i also was taken for a ride in the predecessor to the CF which was bmc ju

like this only brown!

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Finally got around to dragging the Xantia back out from under the tree.  The new exhaust has been here and getting tripped over on a daily basis for a couple of weeks now.

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Was really surprised at how easy it was to remove the old system, whole lot was off in less than ten minutes.

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While the front section at a glance looked generally to be OK, looking closer the front silencer has a couple of pinholes in it so obviously didn't have much time left.  Patching up the flange that attaches to the tailpipe would indeed have been a false economy.  No question as to whether the tailpipe was knackered though.

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Very obvious that's beyond help.

Sadly I then ran into a very typical pattern exhaust system problem.

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The front pipe is about an inch shorter than it needs to be.

I was pretty much out of energy by this point as that rear silencer weighs a tonne and trying to pick it up and wrestle the hangers into place (one of which is basically inaccessible thanks to suspension bits) is exceedingly uncomfortable when you're laying on your back.

I'll go back in tomorrow and "finesse" the hangers a bit to see if I can get enough give to get it to reach.  Which will mean I have to get it *off* the hangers again.  That will be fun.  If I can't make it reach there will be significant amounts of swearing.

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Exhaust fitted.

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That was an absolute battle but we got there eventually.  I've still only got two out of the three hangers on the rear silencer on though.  I simply cannot get it into place and have all three on.  Not with the available strength I have while laying on my back anyway.  I may seek the assistance of someone with a proper ramp, experience and bigger hammers and hooky tools for wrangling exhaust hangers for that bit.

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Noticed when checking over the Xantia that the LHM was looking quite grim.  There was quite a lot of foaming going on in the reservoir and the colour was definitely off.  The foaming could also point at a leak on the suction side, but the anti-foaming properties of the fluid do break down over time.

The Pela was employed to empty the reservoir (I always forget how big it actually is) and a fresh fill was dropped in.  Even after several full cycles of the suspension and steering there's no foam now visible in the reservoir.

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Just a general check over didn't really reveal anything else of worry I wasn't aware of for the MOT.  Well, aside from needing a clean!

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My intention is to get the hub pulled off the Invacar sometime over the next few days so in preparation for that I unburied it.  As Dollywobbler mentioned recently in one of his videos, it is indeed true that the moment a car becomes immobile it turns into a shelf.

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While most of the ducting and heat shields in the engine bay aren't in bad shape there is one exception on the offside rear corner.

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I'll definitely need to do something with this longer term.  At least this doesn't have the potential to cause overheating like on a VW as the intake air is ducted from the engine cover so this is a bit less urgent.

In the meantime though I just cleaned up a bit and gave a few areas which had suffered most badly during the bodywork a bit of paint.

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Has helped make it look a bit less rough.

This is mostly needed because like an idiot I didn't properly mask off the engine bay, totally underestimating how much paint would find its way in.  Rookie mistake.

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nice to see TPA again had been wondering what was going on regarding her and her hub woes!, engine bay is looking nice :) (much nicer then mine anyway!)

 

IIRC you should be able to get those heat-shields  from haflinger technik but they dont come with the little scoops that attach to them

so make sure you transfer those over from the old ones and dont chuck em out accidentally with the old ones!

(im not sure if they sell scoops themselves or not would not hurt to ask if you end up ordering "new" heat shields/baffles from them :) )

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On 7/5/2020 at 10:57 PM, Zelandeth said:

Tyres look like it will indeed be the Vredsteins.  The cheaper options I was looking at don't have the correct speed rating.  The only tyres I can find in 215/70 R 15 with the correct ratings are the Vredstein Sprint Classic, Pirelli P5, or Good Year Sport Classic.  Plus a couple of proper re-issues of old types which cost silly money.  The Vredstein and Good Year tyres are roughly comparable on price but I've never been impressed with a Good Year tyre, so will probably head for the Vredstein.  Pirellis are a little more expensive yet don't seem to have anything particular to recommend them over anything else.

Will check with a couple of places locally just to see if they can do any reasonable deals, failing that will get them ordered soon.

18 months ago I got 4 GoodYear Efficient Grip Performance tyres for my 2000 BMW E46, 323Ci.  They perform ok, but between 45 to 55 mph there is a "droning " noise, a bit like a worn bearing.  It is definatly the tyres, because if I put on my winter tyres, (Avon Ice Touring, with silica compound ) a lot less noise, considering the knobbly winter tread.. The old Cooper tyres (Zeon CS6) were also quiet.  The supplier said they should be quiet, there must be something wrong with the car!  I disagree, the car drive s well, with no other problems. All are 205/55 R 16,  91W, the right size and rating specified for the car.

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6 hours ago, bobdisk said:

18 months ago I got 4 GoodYear Efficient Grip Performance tyres for my 2000 BMW E46, 323Ci.  They perform ok, but between 45 to 55 mph there is a "droning " noise, a bit like a worn bearing.  It is definatly the tyres, because if I put on my winter tyres, (Avon Ice Touring, with silica compound ) a lot less noise, considering the knobbly winter tread.. The old Cooper tyres (Zeon CS6) were also quiet.  The supplier said they should be quiet, there must be something wrong with the car!  I disagree, the car drive s well, with no other problems. All are 205/55 R 16,  91W, the right size and rating specified for the car.

I imagine it varies a lot from tyre to tyre, but the ones I had on my Pug 107 for a while we're Good Years and they were honestly dangerous.  They may as well have been made of plastic, on a wet road it was like a 60s HGV tyre - anything more than about 20% braking effort had the ABS going nuts.  Was made worse by the car having stability control and active skid prevention systems which felt the need to get involved the moment it detected any loss of grip - scared the hell out of me the first time that happened.  I went to correct the slight loss of grip and very nearly got catapulted into the middle of a roundabout when the car decided to do it itself.  No button to turn any of that off either...

Noise wise I think certain tread patterns just cause issues with the exact wheel alignment on some cars.

Something I missed a few pages back was Lightbulbfun posting an image of a page from the Invacar manual which clearly shows the hub and half shaft arrangement apart...and it's clear which of the two types of spline it is.  So I'll get one ordered. 

Decided now I know what I'm ordering to do a bit more experimentation with the current one (which will be replaced irrespective of the outcome).  The three bolts which were threaded in where the studs used to be required to be cut down slightly as they were too long and interfered with the brake shoes.  Not a particularly difficult job there, just needed to be done carefully so as to not wreck the threads.  Bit of care and attention and chasing the threads once done isn't a problem.

The final bolt just felt a bit loose when inserted as the threads that were cut aren't fantastic, but it tightened up properly to the specified torque without issue.  I put a decent blob of thread lock on it for good measure.

The jack was deployed and a quick test was done to see if the wheel was sitting straight and would run true.

IMG_20200709_180732.thumb.jpg.93d17fe62defb0be711d4c71665f729e.jpg

Seems happy enough.  I didn't go above just fast enough to get the clutch engaged as I only had the one wheel jacked up, but enough to confirm it doesn't have a visible wobble, the brakes work and weren't snatching, and there were no nasty horrible graunchy noises.  At least I can get the car in and out of the garage properly now.

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ohh wheel movement! exciting!

so when are you going for a drive I know id find it very hard not to! :) 

 

has also just given me a silly idea on how one could "launch" a Model 70 (in a drag racing sense not off a cliff!) since you cant dump the clutch or slam it into drive like you can in a normal car, but you could have someone jack up the rear, then you stick it in drive, rev the tits off of it, then drop the car to the ground LOL  (tho I have to wonder would the centrifugal clutch just slip or would it just stall before things get going/the tyres break traction)

ill leave that for someone else to try!

 

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I may go for an experimental low speed local trundle.  I keep having to remind myself that we're not talking a massively heavy, high powered vehicle here.  While I'm terrified of a wheel coming adrift I keep having to remind myself that yes, one bolt is somewhat compromised but even so torqued up just fine.  The other three are as or possibly stronger than the original studs. 

I reckon if you were to launch a Model 70 like that there's a good chance you'd break something.  The Woodruff key on the secondary pulley strikes me as a weak point - also the driveshaft couplings aren't exactly beefy.  Nor are the front two engine mounts...

The whole drivetrain and flywheel assembly have quite a bit of weight to them, so I suspect physics would do a good job of very quickly finding the weakest point.

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