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Zelandeth

Zel's Motoring Adventures...Jag, Citroen, Mercedes & AC Model 70 - 06/08 - Minor Invacar Bodywork Fettling & A Proper Test Drive

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i like the scheduled off/on feature which certainly adds to battery life & the way you can tweak the power savers to suit your self

in fact its amazing how many things a whoarewe can do that a something p9 cant

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20 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Jag bonnet badge:

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Xantia tail light:

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This will be fun to play with...

do you have a SOX/SLI lamp or the MA/V lamp on hand?

would be interesting to see how well it could do a macro shot of one of its electrodes :) 

 

BTW dont forget to set the video recording settings appropriately :) (does the wide angle stuff work in video mode? would be quite handy for recording videos inside TPA etc)

 

20 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I've never come across another petrol engine which "just" tries to set fire to its air filter periodically.

that gave me a good chuckle :) yeah its why I was wondering if the issues is caused by a mixture problem/running a bit lean then could it be resolved by fitting slightly larger jets or the such like?

or do your think its deeper issue or such like?

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What, like this MA/V lamp electrode?

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Don't have any SLI lamps handy right now...

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Back to the Invacar.

I *finally* found the long lost trim for the number plate light so have stuck that back where it belongs.

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It's not perfectly straight, I'll tackle that another day when it's not a thousand degrees outside.

Did a bit more experimentation with the carb.  Let the engine run long enough to get decently warm to see if any running issues cropped up...still seemed happy.  Let's see what the CO meter has to say.

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Well that's rather better than I'd expect for a carb from a totally different engine on which I've not even touched anything.

Got a better video today, showing throttle response...audio is better if nothing else.

The first run is me cracking the throttle immediately wide open after the engine had been idling for a good 30 seconds or so.  The engine here is always going to initially respond a little slowly just because it's got a really heavy flywheel attached and has to spin up the whole gearbox input shaft when the centrifugal clutch engages.

Anyone who knows these cars knows that this would normally have resulted in a fairly noticeable pause before the engine really picked up. 

She starts a lot better now too.  Usually you had to give her a bit of throttle to initially get the engine to catch.

I have cobbled together a connection to the throttle cable which seems to work okay...think we might need to try to get a road test done tomorrow.

Re-jetting the original carb may well help, though it's such a dark art that you'd really need to get someone who really knows this stuff to take a look and figure out where the issue is hiding.  Whether it's too little fuel, too much air or deeper issues with the design not being ideally suited to the engine.  Or I'm speaking rubbish and it is actually fine...though I reckon the spitting back behaviour is a symptom of fuelling issues, especially as I've not managed to provoke that even once yet since putting this carb on...and that's despite it actually running slightly leaner at idle according to the CO meter.

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28 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

What, like this MA/V lamp electrode?

IMG_20200801_191053.thumb.jpg.8929db64d530e4ae52f24bf04b9f195e.jpg

hah very cool you can see the thoria pellet inside the tungsten coil used to lower the work function of the electrode :) 

(my only MA lamp is a GE A-H1 American example so it has different electrodes with the emissive material directly impregnated in the coils)

28 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Back to the Invacar.

I *finally* found the long lost trim for the number plate light so have stuck that back where it belongs.

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It's not perfectly straight, I'll tackle that another day when it's not a thousand degrees outside.

Did a bit more experimentation with the carb.  Let the engine run long enough to get decently warm to see if any running issues cropped up...still seemed happy.  Let's see what the CO meter has to say.

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Well that's rather better than I'd expect for a carb from a totally different engine on which I've not even touched anything.

Got a better video today, showing throttle response...audio is better if nothing else.

The first run is me cracking the throttle immediately wide open after the engine had been idling for a good 30 seconds or so.  The engine here is always going to initially respond a little slowly just because it's got a really heavy flywheel attached and has to spin up the whole gearbox input shaft when the centrifugal clutch engages.

Anyone who knows these cars knows that this would normally have resulted in a fairly noticeable pause before the engine really picked up. 

She starts a lot better now too.  Usually you had to give her a bit of throttle to initially get the engine to catch.

I have cobbled together a connection to the throttle cable which seems to work okay...think we might need to try to get a road test done tomorrow.

happy to see TPA is doing well so far with the new carb,

but something needs to be tweaked with your video settings, its at a weird aspect ratio wider than 16:9 but not quite full 21:9 I dont think?

either way its a bit TOO wide screen LOL it looks almost like the top half of the video is missing LOL

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28 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Re-jetting the original carb may well hell, though it's such a dark art that you'd really need to get someone who really knows this stuff to take a look and figure out where the issue is hiding.  Whether it's too little fuel, too much air or deeper issues with the design not being ideally suited to the engine.  Or I'm speaking rubbish and it is actually fine...though I reckon the spitting back behaviour is a symptom of fuelling issues, especially as I've not managed to provoke that even once yet since putting this carb on...and that's despite it actually running slightly leaner at idle according to the CO meter.

yeah, its interesting, I dont think this its an issue on any other steyr puch engined vehicles, (but most of the videos on youtube of them are of highly tuned examples LOL) I have only seen the Model 70 do it, ill have to try to remember to ask John REV's previous owner, about it see what he recalls back in when he serviced these for a living!

I do wonder if its something to do with Model 70's specific drive train, its  heavy flywheel and low speed of drive train engagement, it only seems to cough when you get on the throttle from a stand still/slow speed almost like its complaining about being made to suddenly get up and go as quickly as it can with such a heavy load to drag along with it LOL

I dunno just random thoughts! 

I hope some day @dollywobbler (or you :) ) can get a stock 493cc Steyr puch 500 car for a test drive it would be really interesting to hear how it compares to a Model 70

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Yeah, I need to find tune the video settings, I wasn't faffing with it for something this simple though.  I think the uber-wide aspect ratio is utilising the full width of the sensor, the normal 16:9 crops the edges a bit.  I'll make sure it's set to 1080p/60 and 16:9 next time I'm doing anything meaningful.

I have been meaning to do a proper "tour" video of the Invacar anyway, for which the wide angle mode will be bloody handy.  When I do get around to that I'll probably run the basic text I'll be planning for the voiceover explaining the history etc past you first for a fact check as I trust you to remember the details more reliably than me.

I've ordered a slightly slimmer case style than I normally use on my phone this time (aside from anything else, it seemed a shame to completely hide the back of it because it's so damned pretty)...

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...The main reason for that though is actually that I hope to be able to more securely fix it within the window mounts I've got so hopefully will be able to get slightly less shaky video while driving.  We'll see.

The P9 has now been returned to duty in the distributed computing cluster.  It does get rather toasty in this application though...but conveniently has an all metal case back (which is directly coupled to the back of the CPU by a thermal pad).  This was the solution I came up with for thermal management...

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Yep, those are the old CPU heatsinks from my workstation.  I was sceptical that this would do anything as they're just sitting on the case...but they do.  The thing used to throttle the CPU after about 15 minutes before, it never does now and always stays well within spec.

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Back to carbs, interesting stuff Zel. I did meet someone at Bicester Heritage last year with a Steyr-Puch 500 but sadly wasn't able to arrange a drive. Can't be many over here! Unfortunately, a planned drive of a Haflinger fell through at the last minute and I've not been able to rearrange.

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That's pretty good, I don't think you'll do better than that because of the cam. It seems to be ground towards mid to high range running so snapping the throttle wide open like that and it not coughing, popping or snapping but picking up (albeit slowly) is about as good as it is likely to get.

I forget too, does it have vacuum advance?

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22 hours ago, PhilA said:

That's pretty good, I don't think you'll do better than that because of the cam. It seems to be ground towards mid to high range running so snapping the throttle wide open like that and it not coughing, popping or snapping but picking up (albeit slowly) is about as good as it is likely to get.

I forget too, does it have vacuum advance?

No vacuum advance on this engine. Centrifugal only.

Following the experiment yesterday I had cobbled together a link to the throttle control...which went *ping* the first time I tried applying full throttle.

Version 2.0 was quickly put together.

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This actually worked surprisingly well.

Unfortunately actually on the road this carb didn't work as well as it looked like it might.  On wide open throttle it feels like the engine is really bogging down at lower revs.  However it has very much highlighted how well the original one isn't behaving in some circumstances.  The throttle response here is far more linear, the original one felt that there was far more of an off/medium/high sort of throttle.  This one is also far happier to sit on a very light throttle at a set speed - 30mph for example can be maintained without needing to continually adjust.

Being able to just bring the revs up till the clutch starts to bite and then being able to just roll it on as you move off makes things so much smoother and pleasant.

At higher revs it felt more lively so long as you didn't go beyond about 70% throttle.

I think I might be seeing a reason that it feels like this engine is holding back a bit at the top end.  Here's what I saw when I got back from the test.

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Not maybe obvious in the photo but the whole outer of the carb was swimming in fuel.

Doing some testing with the air cleaner off showed an interesting effect - when the throttle is opened anywhere beyond about 50% there is a tendency for a fine mist of fuel to want to hover about 2" above the carb throat - I'm guessing suspended there by pressure waves caused by resonance within the inlet manifold.

I'm sure I recall hearing of folks using dual carbs on air cooled VWs (so each carb feeding two cylinders exactly like this) having trouble with exactly this phenomenon with certain carb setups. 

That's where the fuel that I've been seeing running off the carb has been coming from though, it's nothing to do with a leak.  It's literally been getting sprayed over the inside of the air cleaner housing, then running down over the carb.  The air cleaner is just a metal-on-metal join so isn't hermetically sealed or anything like that.

I'm getting the feeling that's putting a theoretical limit on how much charge we can get into the engine, and why it has always felt like the last 30% or so of the throttle travel really doesn't seem to do anything.

I think it's a combination between this effect and the carb being better to run slightly lean (according to the manual) which might together account for the sneezing habit.

What to actually *do* about it though I've no idea.  Applying some brainpower and maybe ask thoughts from folks who do more engine tuning etc for a living may be the answer.  Will let you know if I get anywhere.

In the meantime though I will put the original carb back...after further cleaning.  I'd obviously failed to shift the offending gunk last time around so it was dismantled again and chucked back in the ultrasonic cleaner.

My cleaner wasn't quite big enough to fully submerge the whole carb though which was always rather limiting.

However PhilA presented an idea which was a stroke of genius and effectively made my ultrasonic cleaner more than big enough.

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Plenty big enough to thoroughly submerge it now.

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It was left in there with the cleaner running for a full two hours.  It *definitely* shifted a lot more crud this time round...both based on the sludge left behind when it was removed from the cleaner and just how it looks.

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I'll get it out back on the car tomorrow and see where we are.  Setup procedure will be done by the book too.

So while this carb experiment might not have been an immediate fix, the behaviour when bumbling around at 30mph or below, starting etc has very much highlighted that the existing carb wasn't allowing the engine to perform as well as it could.  Whether that's down to this carb being in need of a professional service or just limitations of the combination of this carb and this engine is something I've yet to confirm.  One thing I will be doing is rechecking the valve clearances.  I did check these when I first got KPL, but that was a long time ago.  0.15mm is the correct cold clearance for both inlet and exhaust valves.  It will be a lot more of a faff now the engine is in TPA because she has intact wheel wells...

Will order in a new set of rocker cover gaskets first though.  I was incredibly lucky to get them to seal properly when I reused them the first time round, expecting them to survive being taken off and refitted twice is a bit of an ask...

Also on the subject of carburetors I'm glad to report that the scruffy roadside find lawn mower is working like new again with the new carb fitted.

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Might even treat it to a clean as a reward for living to fight another day.  While it looks like hell it is mechanically well looked after though...the oil is a lot cleaner than the outside.  I have tried four times now to buy a new grass box for it, every time I get an email several days after the order saying "sorry we don't actually have one in stock."

I noticed yesterday that the offside tailpipe on the Jag was buzzing again.  Turned out it had managed to rotate and was touching the underside of the cutout under the bumper.  Five minute job to tweak the alignment and clamp it a bit more securely.

This is how the tips now sit.

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Know a few of you wanted to know why I'd spent time faffing with it.  This is why.  Sorry, didn't want to make too much noise as our neighbours were having lunch in the garden opposite.

I'll try to get a proper driving video shortly. 

That however is why I was messing with the exhaust.  Sounds a bit more purposeful now I think...

Oh, and the leather has been treated a further two times today.  It's almost getting to the stage where the conditioner actually sticks around for more than two milliseconds before being absorbed now. 

More excuses to play with the wide angle mode on the camera too.

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Looks like this car was really well looked after in a lot of ways but the leather had been quite neglected.

Something I really need to do as a matter of some urgency is get some floor mats.  I keep meaning to but keep forgetting.

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very interesting issue with regards to the carb on the Invacar

it reminds me a lot of this, its a shame you didn't have any polystyrene balls to stick/levitate  in the standing wave (as if a fibreglass car with fuel spraying out the carb was not flammable enough!)

 

the Jag is sounding very nice :) (and I see you adjusted the video settings some more :)

 

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Yup, fun with high revving cams on short induction runners.

 

If the old carb doesn't run, rejetting the new carb and putting it on an extended intake runner tube may help re-tune it, but yes, far too rich and too high CFM for the engine.

 

Same issue people get on old V8's here when they fling a 750cfm Holley Dominator on a tired old 350.

 

Phil

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Imagine getting the fuelling spot on on such a small engine is always going to be a bit of a game.

...Do wish that injection kit wasn't so expensive as it would be a really neat experiment otherwise!

Dual bike carbs maybe?

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side slightly related thing

but I was reading back through some of your past posts on TPA

and read through the bit about the gearbox oil leak, where you mentioned you think it might either coming out of the top of the gearbox or one of the drive shaft seal

and it reminded me and figured it would be worth mentioning here, that to remember the Gearbox and diff dont share a common oil pool if thats the right term?

they are topped up and drained separately, etc and dont mix

just something to keep that in mind when looking into the leak and to make sure you dont accidentally run the diff dry or such :) 

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9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

side slightly related thing

but I was reading back through some of your past posts on TPA

and read through the bit about the gearbox oil leak, where you mentioned you think it might either coming out of the top of the gearbox or one of the drive shaft seal

and it reminded me and figured it would be worth mentioning here, that to remember the Gearbox and diff dont share a common oil pool if thats the right term?

they are topped up and drained separately, etc and dont mix

just something to keep that in mind when looking into the leak and to make sure you dont accidentally run the diff dry or such :) 

It's definitely worth mentioning as it's not immediately obvious unless you've read the manual.  Especially if the whole gearbox is like mine was when I got it encased in a good 3/4" thick crust of congealed oil, mud and I assume drive belt dust.  It took work with a chisel to actually find the level plugs!  Oil in both has been changed previously as a matter of course during the recommissioning process though so I know there are separate fill/level plugs.  Probably worth changing the oil again now I've got a few miles covered now I think about it as I've probably done a pretty good job of stirring up any sludge from the corners of the box by now...

First order of business for today (well, was actually a bunch of boring real life stuff...wasn't until gone 1700 before I was able to stick my head outside) was to get the original carb refitted.

On the plus side, I've done this enough times now that it takes about ten minutes.

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While fitting this I made a point of trying to get some of the slack out of the throttle cable as there was a lot of dead travel in it before which made applying anything more than about 40% throttle really awkward.

I was then slightly delayed at this point by the battery being flat.  I have been doing a lot of stop/start work lately and it was never charged while the car was off the road as I can recall so not massively surprising.  Conveniently due to the low power draw of the Invacar's electrical systems, the 12A of charge current from the charger is more than enough to meaningfully help as a jump start (as I recall I measured the current draw of the Dynastart while cranking to be in the region of 30A).  While there was initially a lot of spluttering, coughing and one properly shotgun loud backfire while the residual carb cleaner was expelled and a bit of faffing around wishing I had three hands while I got the idle mixture dialled in, we were soon back up and running.

It seems that whatever blockage was in there last time we were successful in dislodging this time.  @Mrs6C it's really, really obvious from both the result and the slime it left in the cleaner that the full-immersion cleaning did a massively better job than the original method.  So if your carb shows any signs of not being happy (or if it's not been fitted yet, as a preventative measure) I'm more than happy to take it back and give it another proper dunking.  As I recall though yours wasn't massively bad on the whole, it was mainly just the idle jet itself being well and truly plugged that had caused you issues, so hopefully it will be fine.  Quite happy to get that reattached for you at the next open weekend unless someone else has already stepped up to volunteer.  Sorry I had to dash off last time before we got to that.

So, on to the test run.  I set the camera running before I started out on the test run.  Unfortunately because I'm an idiot I totally forgot to close the offside window so there's a heap of wind noise.  Sorry.  Equally the camera aim is horrible - again a limit of the holder and that location.  I've got a couple of alternatives on the way from Amazon as we speak to try in the future as I'd really like to be able to get *decent* driving footage.  This gives a better idea of how she's actually running now though at least.  I do note that I appear to need to poke the tail light earthing arrangements again as the indicators stop flashing when the brake lights are on.  Think it's time I just rebuilt those lights with better lamp holders and proper wiring as they're nothing but trouble.

(No, I haven't wired the gauge pod up yet either.)

She will still stumble occasionally if you crack the throttle open instantly from idle, but I haven't been able to provoke any sneezing today.  If you make a point of smoothly rolling on the throttle rather than just cracking it open, cleaning the carb and having tweaked the idle speed up a bit seems to mostly have resolved that.  I do wonder if a throttle damper might be something worth thinking about here.

The low speed/low throttle behaviour has been vastly improved.  It's possible to sit at 30mph now without the car complaining which is a nice improvement.  It was always a bit hit and miss, but you generally could provoke a sneeze from the carb by hitting the throttle hard after coasting for a bit.  I've deliberately tried several times today but wasn't able to replicate it - so am tentatively labelling that as fixed by cleaning the carb more thoroughly.

What it hasn't done anything whatsoever about is the fuel lift problem.  The carb still ends up wet with fuel after any period of hard acceleration, and there's still little noticeable difference between 70% and 100% throttle.  I'm really not sure what to do about this...If the air cleaner was a better seal against the carb body it would be less of an issue, but as there's a sufficient gap there that any fuel mist that lands on the inner surfaces of the air cleaner housing eventually run down the inside of it and then down the outside of the carb intake, then down over the body.  I wonder if it might be possible to fit an O ring to seal the base join between the air cleaner and the carb?  Obviously would need to plug the two cutouts (which allow it to close to clamp onto the carb) with something flexible too.

I'm not sure this is something that I can hope to resolve with the carb itself as it (at least if my understanding is correct) is more a function of resonance effects within the inlet manifold itself causing pulses to force fuel back up through the carb when the inlet valves are both closed.  Alteration of the air filter side of things to mitigate the effects of the phenomenon seems to be the order of the day.  Figuring out a way to properly seal the air filter to the carb *seems* to be the easiest avenue.

It's not a massive problem, the fuel doesn't exactly wind up pouring everywhere, the carb body itself just tends to appear slightly damp to the touch after a run and it evaporates entirely within a minute or two of the engine stopping.  I'd obviously prefer *not* to have flammable liquid, no matter in how small quantities, winding up in my engine bay anywhere other than inside my engine though.  Long term it's definitely something I want to get rid of - especially given that the road layout around where I live means that full throttle blasts are a necessity pretty much any time I go out whether I like it or not.

On the plus side though it seems that she is running pretty well again.  Only gremlin that really came to light was that I do need to put a tiny amount of slack back into the throttle cable.  It sometimes hangs up with the throttle held open by about 0.00002%, holding the idle speed up just high enough that I can't engage drive.  Simple enough to fix though.  Oh, and I need to stick the battery on to charge...Would have done that tonight, but as the Citroen is heading into the garage tomorrow it's currently on the charger as it is in need of a new battery and struggles to hold charge for more than a few days.

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Once she's got a fresh MOT on I'll get that battery replaced - it's still under warranty so will be getting swapped out as soon as the car is actually mobile again.

 

I made a point of borrowing my husband this evening to get a bit of exterior footage of the Jag at something other than idle...Sadly I think I really need to re-shoot this with the camera a bit further down the road as it sounds like that's where the good stuff really was based on the distant howl!  Makes sense given it really picks up in the mid range.

The theatre of the way the whole car rears back when you give it some throttle from a standing start really hasn't got old yet.

While we were at it, I was curious to see if the van actually sounded as ridiculous from the outside as it seemed based on my hearing it bouncing off buildings and such.

Yep...That's about what I expected...Sound clip that could well be from a good few decades ago!

Both of these need to be tried again with a better vantage point and when the traffic is quieter. 

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4 hours ago, PhilA said:

Is the valve lash set correctly on the Invacar? What about the spring tension?

Sounds like you may have an intake valve that's bouncing at high rpm if it does it to that carb too.

It will be double checked in the near future.  The valve clearances were checked and set when I was initially recommissioning the engine, they weren't far out at all anyway.  It's actually most pronounced at low to mid revs it looks like based on static experiments - tricky to say how that translates to under load conditions though.

I believe it's something TWC does as well as I'm pretty sure DW has had an elusive apparent fuel leak without an obvious source in the general area of the carb as well as long as he's had the car running.

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very happy to hear even on her original carb TPA is running better now :) 

I like the jag and the van exterior sound check videos you should do one of TPA just for completeness sake if nothing else :) 

11 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Only gremlin that really came to light was that I do need to put a tiny amount of slack back into the throttle cable.  It sometimes hangs up with the throttle held open by about 0.00002%, holding the idle speed up just high enough that I can't engage drive.  Simple enough to fix though.

REV had/has a tendency to do that too, do let me know how you get on with the throttle cable, REV's has been a right PITA LOL (doesn't help her twist grip itself is quite knackard, must figure out what diameter the handle bars themselves are and see what my options are)

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Bars are pretty standard I believe.  It took a fair bit of messing around to get mine to move freely, but we've got to a point now where it tends to *just* hold itself where you set the throttle.  I've decided to leave it be like that as it actually makes driving the car car easier than having to keep the throttle held open all the time.  Especially if you need to go for other controls, open/close a window, wave thanks to another road user etc.

The grip on the nearside was replaced with a generic bike one I picked up from either Go Outdoors or Halfords - I just grabbed the one which seemed most comfortable.  I'd be surprised if most standard moped throttle twist grip assemblies wouldn't fit straight on for the throttle side.

 

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It's nice when simple jobs turn out to be simple.

Non-functioning nearside indicator repeater on the van was just a slightly grubby lamp holder.  Quick clean restored correct functionality.

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The Invacar is now on the battery charger to get that properly topped off.

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I set out initially with the intention of tidying up in the garage a bit but suffered a critical lack of motivation after about 15 minutes.  Maybe tomorrow...

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21 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

It's definitely worth mentioning as it's not immediately obvious unless you've read the manual.  Especially if the whole gearbox is like mine was when I got it encased in a good 3/4" thick crust of congealed oil, mud and I assume drive belt dust.  It took work with a chisel to actually find the level plugs!  Oil in both has been changed previously as a matter of course during the recommissioning process though so I know there are separate fill/level plugs.  Probably worth changing the oil again now I've got a few miles covered now I think about it as I've probably done a pretty good job of stirring up any sludge from the corners of the box by now...

First order of business for today (well, was actually a bunch of boring real life stuff...wasn't until gone 1700 before I was able to stick my head outside) was to get the original carb refitted.

On the plus side, I've done this enough times now that it takes about ten minutes.

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While fitting this I made a point of trying to get some of the slack out of the throttle cable as there was a lot of dead travel in it before which made applying anything more than about 40% throttle really awkward.

I was then slightly delayed at this point by the battery being flat.  I have been doing a lot of stop/start work lately and it was never charged while the car was off the road as I can recall so not massively surprising.  Conveniently due to the low power draw of the Invacar's electrical systems, the 12A of charge current from the charger is more than enough to meaningfully help as a jump start (as I recall I measured the current draw of the Dynastart while cranking to be in the region of 30A).  While there was initially a lot of spluttering, coughing and one properly shotgun loud backfire while the residual carb cleaner was expelled and a bit of faffing around wishing I had three hands while I got the idle mixture dialled in, we were soon back up and running.

It seems that whatever blockage was in there last time we were successful in dislodging this time.  @Mrs6C it's really, really obvious from both the result and the slime it left in the cleaner that the full-immersion cleaning did a massively better job than the original method.  So if your carb shows any signs of not being happy (or if it's not been fitted yet, as a preventative measure) I'm more than happy to take it back and give it another proper dunking.  As I recall though yours wasn't massively bad on the whole, it was mainly just the idle jet itself being well and truly plugged that had caused you issues, so hopefully it will be fine.  Quite happy to get that reattached for you at the next open weekend unless someone else has already stepped up to volunteer.  Sorry I had to dash off last time before we got to that.

So, on to the test run.  I set the camera running before I started out on the test run.  Unfortunately because I'm an idiot I totally forgot to close the offside window so there's a heap of wind noise.  Sorry.  Equally the camera aim is horrible - again a limit of the holder and that location.  I've got a couple of alternatives on the way from Amazon as we speak to try in the future as I'd really like to be able to get *decent* driving footage.  This gives a better idea of how she's actually running now though at least.  I do note that I appear to need to poke the tail light earthing arrangements again as the indicators stop flashing when the brake lights are on.  Think it's time I just rebuilt those lights with better lamp holders and proper wiring as they're nothing but trouble.

(No, I haven't wired the gauge pod up yet either.)

She will still stumble occasionally if you crack the throttle open instantly from idle, but I haven't been able to provoke any sneezing today.  If you make a point of smoothly rolling on the throttle rather than just cracking it open, cleaning the carb and having tweaked the idle speed up a bit seems to mostly have resolved that.  I do wonder if a throttle damper might be something worth thinking about here.

The low speed/low throttle behaviour has been vastly improved.  It's possible to sit at 30mph now without the car complaining which is a nice improvement.  It was always a bit hit and miss, but you generally could provoke a sneeze from the carb by hitting the throttle hard after coasting for a bit.  I've deliberately tried several times today but wasn't able to replicate it - so am tentatively labelling that as fixed by cleaning the carb more thoroughly.

What it hasn't done anything whatsoever about is the fuel lift problem.  The carb still ends up wet with fuel after any period of hard acceleration, and there's still little noticeable difference between 70% and 100% throttle.  I'm really not sure what to do about this...If the air cleaner was a better seal against the carb body it would be less of an issue, but as there's a sufficient gap there that any fuel mist that lands on the inner surfaces of the air cleaner housing eventually run down the inside of it and then down the outside of the carb intake, then down over the body.  I wonder if it might be possible to fit an O ring to seal the base join between the air cleaner and the carb?  Obviously would need to plug the two cutouts (which allow it to close to clamp onto the carb) with something flexible too.

I'm not sure this is something that I can hope to resolve with the carb itself as it (at least if my understanding is correct) is more a function of resonance effects within the inlet manifold itself causing pulses to force fuel back up through the carb when the inlet valves are both closed.  Alteration of the air filter side of things to mitigate the effects of the phenomenon seems to be the order of the day.  Figuring out a way to properly seal the air filter to the carb *seems* to be the easiest avenue.

It's not a massive problem, the fuel doesn't exactly wind up pouring everywhere, the carb body itself just tends to appear slightly damp to the touch after a run and it evaporates entirely within a minute or two of the engine stopping.  I'd obviously prefer *not* to have flammable liquid, no matter in how small quantities, winding up in my engine bay anywhere other than inside my engine though.  Long term it's definitely something I want to get rid of - especially given that the road layout around where I live means that full throttle blasts are a necessity pretty much any time I go out whether I like it or not.

On the plus side though it seems that she is running pretty well again.  Only gremlin that really came to light was that I do need to put a tiny amount of slack back into the throttle cable.  It sometimes hangs up with the throttle held open by about 0.00002%, holding the idle speed up just high enough that I can't engage drive.  Simple enough to fix though.  Oh, and I need to stick the battery on to charge...Would have done that tonight, but as the Citroen is heading into the garage tomorrow it's currently on the charger as it is in need of a new battery and struggles to hold charge for more than a few days.

IMG_20200803_204955.thumb.jpg.ead153c306de76d144bf13fe124eb1ae.jpg

Once she's got a fresh MOT on I'll get that battery replaced - it's still under warranty so will be getting swapped out as soon as the car is actually mobile again.

 

I made a point of borrowing my husband this evening to get a bit of exterior footage of the Jag at something other than idle...Sadly I think I really need to re-shoot this with the camera a bit further down the road as it sounds like that's where the good stuff really was based on the distant howl!  Makes sense given it really picks up in the mid range.

The theatre of the way the whole car rears back when you give it some throttle from a standing start really hasn't got old yet.

While we were at it, I was curious to see if the van actually sounded as ridiculous from the outside as it seemed based on my hearing it bouncing off buildings and such.

Yep...That's about what I expected...Sound clip that could well be from a good few decades ago!

Both of these need to be tried again with a better vantage point and when the traffic is quieter. 

I enjoyed those, I could imagine that Jag v12 howl becoming very addictive!  Exactly what an executive lounge on wheels should sound like - like the Lord of the Manor who also smokes Woodbines and drinks pints in the local. 

The van sounds brilliant as well, takes me back a few years when pipes were a bit rorty as standard.  Bloke who used to deliver the Evening Standard to the newsagent round the corner used to have an Sherpa that sounded a lot like that.

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1 hour ago, CaptainBoom said:

I enjoyed those, I could imagine that Jag v12 howl becoming very addictive!  Exactly what an executive lounge on wheels should sound like - like the Lord of the Manor who also smokes Woodbines and drinks pints in the local. 

The van sounds brilliant as well, takes me back a few years when pipes were a bit rorty as standard.  Bloke who used to deliver the Evening Standard to the newsagent round the corner used to have an Sherpa that sounded a lot like that.

The howl is indeed addictive - very - though you're acutely aware that every time you make it do that it's costing you probably north of £1 a shot.

...Fuel costs are about £0.50 a mile at the best of times!

I do very much enjoy how it's just got a lovely refined burble when you're just wafting around (under normal use you rarely see north of 2500rpm as this engine has such a ridiculous amount of torque)...However once you open it up, you get a howl which no other engine can imitate.  I still can't quite get over how smooth it is...and I was expecting that anyway.  You hear a lot of people say "turbine like" which I always thought was a bit overstating the fact, but no...it really isn't!

You don't actually realise quite how quickly she picks up her heels and gets moving until looking at the video I think.  The alarming thing is that that rate of acceleration never really tails off until well, well north of legal speeds. I booted it once when someone was messing around refusing to be overtaken on a dual carriageway and it is truly alarming how rapidly this car can get moving.  Must have been biblically fast in the late 70s.

The exhaust note of the van still amuses me, I don't think I've ever come across a setup before where you can quite so clearly hear when the engine comes on cam.  I've got a video from onboard somewhere on here too I think (albeit looking at the ceiling the whole time as I just left the phone sitting on the step of the side door).  It's a noise which rather like the starter motor on the Jag (V12s sound really, really odd when cranking over) tends to immediately draw attention of anyone with any interest in vehicles of any kind within a 500 metre radius!

Edit: Yep...Here's the onboard video.

 

 

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Had TPA out and about again today.  Probably 3/4 an hour driving under various conditions.  No issues to report.

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The carb continues to seem a lot happier after the second stripdown and clean.  That and having removed about 1/2 a turn at the twist grip of slack out of the throttle cable has vastly improved the driveability of the car.

I've been deliberately being a bit heavier on the brakes while out today and they do seem to be improving as a result.  They do definitely have the grunt to pull the car up rapidly if you press hard enough (I've had to do one emergency stop from 50-ish when someone decided to reverse out of a driveway on the A422 without warning in front of me, and pretty much had to peel my face off the windscreen), they just feel a bit "dead" under normal use in a way that just doesn't inspire confidence.  Hoping that a bit of use will improve matters.  If not a new set of shoes (rather than ones stored in who knows what conditions for a few decades) aren't expensive.

I've officially given up trying to free off the engine cover lock.  A couple of external straps (like used on the Jeep Wrangler) will be fitted for now to stop it rattling until I can find the patience to try to come up with a solution to the existing lock (and all its fasteners) being a solid block of rust.  No it won't look stock, but I'm more interested in getting miles covered than satisfying the concourse committee at this stage!

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You probably find the brakes are similar to the service manual to mine: clean with MEK, inspect for cracks and delamination, carefully remove any scoring with sandpaper and then lightly bevel the edges with a Vixon file while all the time cheerfully breathing in all the asbestos dust.

Re-grease bearings, reassemble and adjust for trailing shoe touching all round and leading shoe 15 thou' gap at the top, touching at the base.

The Jag has a nice note now, dissimilarly similar harmonic to my 8- smooth! One example of how a more free-flowing exhaust lowers fuel economy.

My Transit sounded similar to your van- you could hear where the exhaust went from low speed parp to mid speed warble then high speed mishmash of both. Found the best economy in mine was just as the note was audibly changing, about 40mph in 4th. Not ideal, Ford!

 

Thanks for posting those up though, was a trip down memory lane from when engines all sounded different and you could tell them apart just by listening to them. 

Tell me a Mini from a Fiesta from a Chevette any day.

 

Phil

 

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These arrived this morning.

IMG_20200806_140833.thumb.jpg.3327b4b6a6867b93400e4c4b504ac393.jpg

Which has put a stop to the horrendous rattling and crashing from the engine cover.

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Not exactly pretty, but I'm not really worried about pretty on this car!  The bungee cord which was previously keeping (or rather failing to) the engine cover from bouncing around has now been removed.  It's made a huge difference to the amount of racket in the car.  Especially on uneven surfaces.

On the way back from running some errands I made a run up the A5 for a couple of junctions so I could do a better comparison of cruising to the earlier efforts when we made the run to/from FotU last year.  Definitely far, far improved.  She will now absolutely happily cruise at 60-65mph without any drama. 

Think I broke a few people's brains though.  They weren't expecting to get overtaken by an Invacar on the A5!

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On 8/3/2020 at 12:25 AM, PhilA said:

Yup, fun with high revving cams on short induction runners.

 

If the old carb doesn't run, rejetting the new carb and putting it on an extended intake runner tube may help re-tune it, but yes, far too rich and too high CFM for the engine.

 

Same issue people get on old V8's here when they fling a 750cfm Holley Dominator on a tired old 350.

 

Phil

I suspect a straight runner would mean having a trumpet poking through the engine lid, at least in the rev range needed. Curly trumpet needed.

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12 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

I suspect a straight runner would mean having a trumpet poking through the engine lid, at least in the rev range needed. Curly trumpet needed.

AC_Invacar.jpg

 

2 hours ago, PhilA said:

Doesn't look the slightest bit out of place.

needs to be leather straps for that period look IMHO :) (robbed off an AC Cobra for extra LOLs maybe? :mrgreen: )

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Yeah, if I come across a leather set of bonnet straps I'll definitely switch to them as they'd look far more in period.  These were cheap and available though and have solved the problem, which was my main target.

"Engine cover not properly secured" had been glaring at me from the whiteboard for far too long.

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