Fiat takeover of GM?

[pompei]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/busi ... 905051740/

[fiatdaft]

i'm kinda hope they don't do it,but on the other hand,the 20% stake in chrysler could be an entry back into the us market.

[pogweasel]

Amusing article, though of course totally inaccurate, as only Vauxhall can churn out sub-standard fleet-rental crap and still get away with it, surely the only company in Europe to model itself on the USDM theory of 'make it as ugly, unreliable and shonky as possible, and pray the natives still buy it as a result of misguided patriotism'Though of course both VW group & Mercedes have tried their own version of this in recent years, just substitue the patriotism bit with 'percieved brand quality'. The long-standing Franco-Italian method of car production is of course not all that far removed, but at least they get to knock off at lunchtime to go and have sex with someone else's wife.

[ashmicro]

I personally hope Vauxhall disappears. I shagging hate those things.I'll never forgive them for the abortion that is the Mark 3 Astra. Piece of slow,ugly, poorly engineered and ill-thought out krap.For producing a generation of injection-moulded, white-instrumented nightmares after something as tough and worthy as the Chevette.

[ashmicro]

And the Nova was pish too. Not even close to the mighty Metro. When the Metro went K-Series twas a veritable gulf. OK my judgment was slightly coloured by the fact that I was nearly killed in this:

 

 

when the arse fell out of it - more accurately, the poorly designed rear axle mountings.

 

At the time, my own daily car was a Fiat Cunto 1.2. Slow as fuck but fun to drive, itchy seats and drank like George Best. Bouncing it off the rev limiter up the Glenshane in 3rd probably didn't help....

 

Current Vauxhalls are, in my opinion, shit.

 

OK chaps (and ladies, as I understand we now have a few) rant over

[Father Ted]

The long-standing Franco-Italian method of car production is of course not all that far removed, but at least they get to knock off at lunchtime to go and have sex with someone else's wife.

Which is of course a buisness plan we need to adopt in this country - the hour long lunch & shag break.

Current Vauxhalls are, in my opinion, shit.

Cuttent CDTi donkey is in fact Fiat sourced and in my Zafira a source of constant grief - currently awaiting the Chief Ecec's decision on whether I can have my ECU reflashed with the new software which gets arund many of the problems - local stealership say it cant be done, but then my local stealership are cunts.

[VWPowered]

The long-standing Franco-Italian method of car production is of course not all that far removed, but at least they get to knock off at lunchtime to go and have sex with someone else's wife.

*off to look for a job in car manufacturer*

[Albert Ross]

I work for a vauxhall dealer. They are indeed the lowliest form of transport on the planet. The best of the bunch? Meriva, followed closely by Agila, reason for the Meriva, if you stick to the 1.7 CDTI, it has the Isuzu engine, which, although they do lose oil pump sprockets regularly, if repaired correctly under warranty, they stay together! Agila, well, it's a Suzuki! The rest can go fuck themselves. There's always a 1.9 cdti in with an EGR fault or an alternator fault. 120 or 150, they're all the same. SHIT! It took me 11 hours to replace a turbo on one due to the fact some fucker had decided that fitting the hoses on the bech was the way to go, then, when you try to get a purchase on the clips in situ, there's no chance, so you have to remove and refit the turbo in "Gynaecologist" style, in the so called "gap" left between the engine and the radiator/intercooler/AC Condensor. All of which were rotten and falling apart at 63000 miles! Yes, a NEW turbo at 63K! Alternators are at the back, under the fuel pump, and to remove them, you need to remove the front pulley and tensioner, and drop an engine mounting to get them out over the offside driveshaft, a GREAT piece of "design".......Oil filters? Over the Exhaust and nearside driveshaft, with a ridiculous three hole drain bung................which the whole shebang spurts oil out like a teenager with his first copy of NUTS! 1.3s? Oh yeah.....running rough, running rich, running lean, requires a new loom! Incorrect resistance figures for the injector section, so the wrong signal gets sent/returned? Bollocks really. The overfuelling is more prevalent if you are gentle on the thing, thus meaning you bought it to have an economical car, which you now have to thrash everywhere to get it to run right.............fuckin A!I have two Fords, a 1989 Sapphire, and a 2006 Focus, and two pre 1971 Land Rovers. I like simple cars. (Except the Focus has toys galore, but Ford test things and build their own engines) I would love for the great unwashed to all complain at once about the dreadful heaps of shit they had bought.Best Vauxhall I ever had? The Red Mk3 (YES) Disastra Inastate that greenvanman of this Parish bought off me. I still miss that car! It's been nearly a year!

[Father Ted]

Shit. I hope mine holds together for the 5 years I have left to pay for it. Still, we only do about 6K a year in it, so with luck things wont drop off before we come to chop it in against something else.My problem with mine is its penchant for cloging up the frigging DPF and then loosing all power and stalling owing to the fact it can no longer breathe.Still, someone may steal it, or even drop a piano on it from a great height...

[fiatdaft]

i thinks it only the gm stuff that has bother with the software as they use there own version, and remember its garret that makes the turbo's,not fiat or gm,and there was a spate of them dying in vw's aswell.every car has its problems ,just like they always have had.

[gtd2000]

I have two Fords, a 1989 Sapphire, and a 2006 Focus, and two pre 1971 Land Rovers. I like simple cars. (Except the Focus has toys galore, but Ford test things and build their own engines)

Thing is Ford is using a fiat as the base for the new Ka (Panda/500)

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Vauxhalls are no worse than any other modern mass-produced stuff.Theyre all the same and getting samier, just think how exciting the world will be for motorists when fiats, alfas, lancias, vauxhalls, opels, chryslers, jeeps, dodges have all got the same engines, dashboards and suspensions! YAWN. No doubt they will be available with lots of snazzy paint/chrome/seat fabric/alloy wheel options to allow you to 'personalise' your car which shares 98% of its parts with all the other cars in your street.

[Rocket88]

Carlton and Senator great, the rest is landfill.

[Barry Cade]

i thinks it only the gm stuff that has bother with the software as they use there own version, and remember its garret that makes the turbo's,not fiat or gm,and there was a spate of them dying in vw's aswell. It was a KKK turbo,replaced with a Garrettevery car has its problems ,just like they always have had.

We've just changed a turbo in a VW Touran, with 50k on it, and full VAG service history. When we phoned the turbo company to get a new one, the guy said, is the impeller in bits? we said yes, and he replied, has it done about 50 thousand? .. yes, quite common he said. The faster Vauxhall dissapear the better as far as I'm concerned. Owned loads in the past,mostly Mk2 Cavalier SRi's, along with Manta's,Senators and Kadett's from our German friends, but after about 1992 I'd say GM went down the pan,along with the introduction of the Ecobreak engine. I do find the Mk4 Astra a very refined and pleasant car to drive, but see far too many with management problems to actually own oneMind you, I'd work an a Vauxhall before a Renault anyday,given a choice!

[ashmicro]

Mind you, I'd work an a Vauxhall before a Renault anyday,given a choice!

Amen brother! My sister has a Renault Fatarse Scenic and I recently did a full major on it. Full major pain in the stones.

[Raffles]

 

The long-standing Franco-Italian method of car production is of course not all that far removed, but at least they get to knock off at lunchtime to go and have sex with someone else's wife.

Which is of course a buisness plan we need to adopt in this country - the hour long lunch & shag break.

Can you make it two hours, these days I'll need another hour to recover after an hour long shag.

Fear not...

 

The hour long break is for lunch and a shag so you can enjoy a leisurely 58 minute lunch in comfort.

[Vin]

The bizzarest thing about all this, is that about 3 or 4 years ago GM paid FIAT something like $2 billion to get out of a deal, that on paper forced GM to buy FIAT if they went tits up, or something like that.Now FIAT could buy GM's European operations for $1.3 billion

[aled]

bloody hell i work on quite a few moderns in my garage at home and i must say that i have had my fair share of fiat, vauxhall and fords lately with a sprinkling of some froggy cars, and some can be real twats to work on. personally i am glad my dailys since about 1983 have all been toyotas and mostly trouble free.mind you i did spend £150approx on my carina e in 9 years of ownership.

[IanF]

My problem with mine is its penchant for cloging up the frigging DPF and then loosing all power and stalling owing to the fact it can no longer breathe.

Does it get used at low revs quite a bit? Did a bit of work/research on this and the general consensus is that you haved to give anything with a DPF an "Italian tune-up" every so often.The principal is that it catches it and then burns it off when it heats up to the right temperature, and in a pootling around town situation that doesn't happen.Anyway, back on topic - did you know us Brits are the biggest buyers of VX/Opels in Europe? Really quite a sad state of affairs to be honest. Is it all pre-reg's and fleet sales or do people actually walk in to showrooms and pay real money for them?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

With luck Fiat will bite off more than it can chew and go tits up in 2 years. The Turin factory can be converted into a cash and carry along with the GM plants. No more GM crap (who needs it?) and someone sensible can buy Alfa Romeo and make a proper job of it. With a bit of help, Fiat can perhaps make something useful like a non porous frying pan.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

With luck Fiat will bite off more than it can chew and go tits up in 2 years.

My money is on exactly that outcome.

[IanF]

The Fiat thing is all based around political leverage and being "too big to fail," so I severely doubt it.

[Gompo]

Fiat's President said that Fiat wouldnt survive the next few years if they couldnt strike a partnership with another manufacturer. This was maybe 6 months or so ago..

[Cavcraft]

Do (or did until recently) Fiat make a profit? I'd have thought they'd have welcomed Vauxhall/Opel as they do I believe.The Ellesmere Port plant are apparantly shitting blue lights at the thought of a take over, but I have a hunch they'll be safe if they do. The new Astra is going to be built on a platform shared with many other GM products and the base of the whole thing will be at Ellesmere Port.I'm sure that's not a 100% lifetime guarantee that they will never close but you think it would count for something.Having said that I work for a company that spent just shy of £40M on one part of it's plant and came within a whisker of shutting it down a couple of months later.If Vauxhalls do go it's be a crying shame for the local economy but there's other motors out there. Let's be honest aside from the people employed by the company does anyone honestly miss Rover?

[Cavcraft]

Do (or did until recently) Fiat make a profit? I'd have thought they'd have welcomed Vauxhall/Opel as they do I believe.The Ellesmere Port plant are apparantly shitting blue lights at the thought of a take over, but I have a hunch they'll be safe if they do. The new Astra is going to be built on a platform shared with many other GM products and the base of the whole thing will be at Ellesmere Port.I'm sure that's not a 100% lifetime guarantee that they will never close but you think it would count for something.Having said that I work for a company that spent just shy of £40M on one part of it's plant and came within a whisker of shutting it down a couple of months later.If Vauxhalls do go it's be a crying shame for the local economy but there's other motors out there. Let's be honest aside from the people employed by the company does anyone honestly miss Rover?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

The motor insustry is imploding in on itself - look how GM and Chrysler have basically collapsed like a pack of cards. Too big to fall? Don't you believe it.Cars fall into two categories. Want and Need.Want is BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and to a lesser extent, Volkswagen. You buy one of these because you like cars and want a spiffy badge. These manufacturers have targetted a niche and exploited it well, making massive profits. VW/Audi/Porsche is probably the strongest of the motor groups because everything they make is desirable. I had a go in a new Mark 6 Golf recently and it's a really, really good car.Need is everything else from Ford to Fiat, mega mass produced stuff you buy because you need a car and aren't that bothered. Trouble is, there probably isn't room for all the 'need' manufacturers. I can't see how Vauxhall has a future. The cars aren't that bad (probably quite good) but they are outpointed on every turn. Fords are just better cars, VW have a much better image, the Japs are more reliable and the up and coming Korean stuff is cheaper. Vauxhall just cannot shake off the council estate/hire car/repmobile image they have. They are now suffering the consequences of making shit like the original Vectra and other stuff with serious reliability issues. Like British Leyland, car buyers are once bitten twice shy and the reputation sticks.

[IanF]

The motor insustry is imploding in on itself - look how GM and Chrysler have basically collapsed like a pack of cards. Too big to fall? Don't you believe it.

GM is too big too fail. At least all in one go anyway, which is why the U.S. government has been running around trying to prop up and create something out of the absolute clusterfuck that Wagoner and many of his predecessors over the last forty years have left behind. They're also a massively important part of the social care system in the country, which if rolled in to a non-government backed bankruptcy could leave an awful lot of retirees without sizeable pensions and viagra. Outside of the core U.S. operations, as far as the U.S. government is concerned it can GTF, and it will fall to how important other governments feel local governments consider these parts of the business (hence Marchionne's first port of call in the Opel situation being to the German government and potentially offering to save three plants there, in return for a fat wedge of loan guarantees). Fiat is an interesting case as a partner. It has everything that Chrysler needs to give it a USP in the U.S. (i.e. - loads of good small car platforms and decent powertrain technology), and it will fall to having a good relationship with the UAW to get changes pushed through and increase profitability of operations (although that will probably depend on how massive the hole in the pension pot is). Opel is a difficult one to get your head around though, but if it can gain some support for the move from the German and Spanish governments (the Italian's are a given, the Polish plants are cheap and highly productive, and I don't think the U.K. would be in the picture) there is likely to be a lot of loan support to be wangled. However, they seem to be looking at the bigger car platforms that GME use (new Astra and the Insignia - can't remember off the top of my head what they are), but it would require GM to be happy for them to use them for these vehicles and anything else that Fiat would want them for (both Fiat and undoubtedly Chrysler products as well). I suspect that with the new friends they've made in the U.S. government and depending on how desperate GM is rid themselves of any operations that will require far more work than they're willing to put in, it could be a possibility.Anyway, this could be a bunch of bollox, but either way, any deal put together is likely to take longer than two years to drag down any new company that is created (particually as any deal will take in to account any "right-sizing" that will need to happen - two/three plants being canned, job losses), and this will be probably completed just on the cusp of an upswing...(Actually, I apologise for going off on one - I thought I was somewhere else for a minute )

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and you could well be right. The problem with GM in the US is that it thought it could get by forever supplying the domestic market without exporting cars in huge numbers. Sorry boys, that party started to fizzle out when the Beetle arrived in 1950-whatever and was dying rapidly when the Japs arrived. The Japanese were building cars in US assembly plants and STILL they didn't get the message.Your cars are crap, and the Japanese, Koreans and Germans have nailed you. You have to ask whether it would be better to sell GM and Chrysler plants to another manufacturer - dead weight shorn and minimal redundancies. Fiat and Alfa could do well in the US with the right back up.What's happening to Holden - anyone know?

[r.welfare]

Holden only have one unique platform left in the Commodore, with everything else imported to Oz - a blend of Euroshite (Astra) and Koreanshite (Chevrolet Lacetti and Epica). Plus this new Cruze thing that replaces the Lacetti.Now that Pontiac have bitten the dust that's a significant export market for the Commodore removed; they sell a few thousand to the Arab states but I understand the Australian sales are significantly propped up by government sales and rental agencies. So unless the Australian government want to keep Fisherman's Bend open, the prognosis doesn't look good.