Project Land Rover resto - new project and Sandy p25

[richardthestag]

took a late lunch today to drop the chassis off at the local ish powder coat place.

 

Bit of a bugger because cannot get trailer close to the barn and there is a steep slope from the barn down to the road. elected to leave the rear axle on the chassis as there was only me a dad to load it.

 

Used Mr Windy gun to remove all the bolts securing the rear axle to the chassis and then replaced one loosely 

 

 

 

 

this is the bit that I think will come off worse from the sand blaster. it is the o/s/r sprint turret. Agreed to nip down in two weeks after blasting to assess

 

lifted the axle less front of the chassis onto the trailer. walked it as far forward as the rear axle would allow. then removed the rear axle and lifted the chassis all the way. 

 

unloadage was a bit easier

 

 

ready for mr industrial sand blaster.

 

Next up for me is to rebuild a pair of axles ready for the chassis return - probably next month

 

 

[dollywobbler]

Not sure I'd be tempted by powder coating myself. Having seen how it has 'protected' stuff I've had done, and what a mess TVR chassis can get into (they were powder coated from new) I'd be more tempted to just go for paint and wax. Problem with powder coating is the slightest crack in it and moisture gets drawn in to wreak havoc unseen. Until you realise the powder coating is now structural...

[richardthestag]

Not sure I'd be tempted by powder coating myself. Having seen how it has 'protected' stuff I've had done, and what a mess TVR chassis can get into (they were powder coated from new) I'd be more tempted to just go for paint and wax. Problem with powder coating is the slightest crack in it and moisture gets drawn in to wreak havoc unseen. Until you realise the powder coating is now structural...

 

There is still time for me to change my mind

 

Problem is that I think if you were to paint or coat and leave them alone for years then both por15 epoxy products and powder coat do have issues. products that claim to self heal dont really. There are no "fit and forget" type products on the market that I have been able to find.

 

My daily driver has sills pumped full of one of the well publicised quality cavity products (not waxoil) Chosen because the product promises to neutralise and protect etc etc. didnt stop the extensive welding of the sills this year. when I cut the cavity open I was pulling 5mm thick sheets of the stuff. I will use it again, why? because the sills lasted 23 years of daily all year round use with limited extra attention, and in Uk Land Rover circles that is epic!

 

Pretty much anything is better than the cellulose paint protection offered by the factory. I do understand that whatever I use will be overcoated with a quality wax and then checked annually as part of a service routine.

 

With the demise of a "mandatory annual check" this is going to be a big problem for those less vigilant owners of 40 year old + vehicles!

 

Jury is out right now, finish for powder coat is less likely to bloom. it is a tough finish and the only real issue is the risk of cracking the surface, by poor location of jacking etc.

 

Wasnt the TVR chassis issue a rust from the inside out issue? or did I dream that

[dollywobbler]

Inside-out is certainly possible, as powder coating is only a surface finish. On my 2CV, I previously had the bumpers and headlamp bar powder coated, and the rot that developed in them was epic! The headlamp bar just fell apart when I was dismantling the car. No obvious signs of damage, but the powder coating was cracked and flaking all over the place after a few years. I think it was six years between being powder coated and being utterly ruined (the bumper was much thicker metal, so at least survived with only a little work needed to repair).

[Momentary Lapse Of Reason]

If powder coat is applied (as all too frequently) without primer or proper cleaning of the metal the fail level is epic.

When I was involved in Metal Finishing we used to blast to clean metal, epoxy prime then powdercoat.

We did not have customers complaining about our coatings failing.

That said there is no sensible way to repair damaged powder coat other than blast it off and start again.

 

Personally I blast, inspect/rectify, re-blast if needed, etch prime, epoxy prime, epoxy topcoat and do my absolute damnedest to do the same to the inside of the chassis boxes.

Once the vehicle is reassembled I would also splash the under body & cavity wax most generously!

 

HTH

[Guest Hooli]

I often wonder how often powder coat traps moisture in that has worked through from the inside that isn't protected properly.

 

ETA, Can't you get it galvanised like the replacement Series chassis?

[richardthestag]

I often wonder how often powder coat traps moisture in that has worked through from the inside that isn't protected properly.

 

ETA, Can't you get it galvanised like the replacement Series chassis?

 

 

all good stuff re powder coat. thanks

 

The company I am using is blasting the chassis over the next week. I am due to visit and inspect on 19 Oct and will discuss. The company that does this stuff though does on an industrial level for farming and local community. very professional setup and I doubt corners will be cut. The rims and bumpers they have done already for us are amazing.

 

Re galv, yes you can but when the chassis is so solid to start with I dont really want to go down that route. 

 

Have you ever seen a chassis being straightened again after a hot galv dip? 

 

10lb sledge hammers and presses. Not really sure I want to subject it to that. If the chassis was shot then a new chassis would have got me through. Plus I have had paint flake off galv which has been a balls ache years down the line.

 

I looked at cold galv but the surface needs to be blasted, rust free and clean to start with. this is a 45 year old land rover chassis! Hence getting it blasted which I farmed out because it is a messy nasty business and would take me at least 2 days using my ickle blasting kit. 

 

I could always take it back and por15 / chassis black it rather than powdercoat. 

 

I like that POR15 ad where they show it being clouted with a lump hammer and it not marking the surface, but surely there is an opportunity for rusting under it as well?

 

If rust does start to develop then I would expect the surface to blow, so it shouldnt be difficult to spot impacted areas on an annual check.

[richardthestag]

If powder coat is applied (as all too frequently) without primer or proper cleaning of the metal the fail level is epic.

When I was involved in Metal Finishing we used to blast to clean metal, epoxy prime then powdercoat.

We did not have customers complaining about our coatings failing.

That said there is no sensible way to repair damaged powder coat other than blast it off and start again.

 

Personally I blast, inspect/rectify, re-blast if needed, etch prime, epoxy prime, epoxy topcoat and do my absolute damnedest to do the same to the inside of the chassis boxes.

Once the vehicle is reassembled I would also splash the under body & cavity wax most generously!

 

HTH

 

absolutely aligns with my planned approach

[John F]

I'd also be tempted to paint rather than powder coat as localised damage is easier to remedy.

[Guest Hooli]

 

 

Have you ever seen a chassis being straightened again after a hot galv dip? 

 

10lb sledge hammers and presses. Not really sure I want to subject it to that. If the chassis was shot then a new chassis would have got me through. Plus I have had paint flake off galv which has been a balls ache years down the line.

 

I had no idea that'd be needed, never seen owt dipped.

[Guest Lord Sward]

Its interesting what you say about the chassis twisting after (or during?) galvanising.  This is the reason Morgan have given for stopping their galvanisation of new chassis. Of course, the (M)Owners are up in arms over this.  Of note, they've been galvanised for 18 years.  

[richardthestag]

update this week. Traveled down to Devon or should i say up Devon. Anyway Rebecca had already called to say the chassis hadn't been blasted yet. no worries from me as I haven't yet sorted the axles for it to sit on....

 

Also I found another set of early RR rimz for it to sit on. have a few of these now so need top remember to stop bidding for the bastards when on ebay late night after Gin.

 

Anyway, collected rimz from Paignton and route home was not far from powder coaters. Dropped in on the off chance to drop off recently acquired rimz and also talk about chassis. Concerns raised here about proper blasting and epoxy coating prior to powder coating were settled. Rebecca will not coat anything that might be compromised, epoxy undercoat is part of the deal. Also plugging and drilling out holes for access is unlikely to be an issue,

 

I am next down here in three weeks so set the date for then to inspect prior to next steps.

 

so all I need to do it strip prep and rebuild a pair of axles!!!!

 

Best method for me was to remove wheels and use engine hoist to lift the axle to a workable height

 

 

with drive plate removed it should be a simple issue to loosen the lock nuts and remove disk. yeak like fuck, outer locking nut needed to see the cut off disc before releasing it's grip.

 

from there though, top and bottom swivel pins behaved and allowed strip down of the nearside dead easy

 

however with the hub removed the ball wasn't quite as beautiful as I had hoped

 

I was proper pleased though to find the axle serial number. this far it has proven somewhat illusive. Date matches the car so yeah 2 axles, one chassis and one gearbox all dateable

 

Diff is out easily after the drive shafts are removed. looks clean, the play I felt at the input shaft is between the input cup and the input shaft. 

 

Parts washer had the outer hubs brought up nice and clean, ready for paint,

 

also confirmed state of nearside ball

 

nasty, but possibly original

 

Diff however is very tidy apart from the union between in the input flange and shaft. looking into that

[Guest Hooli]

I've forgot how many of those diffs I replaced when offroading a Disco.

[richardthestag]

Today was fun, radio 2 tuned in and windy gun fully loaded

 

first diff internals removed from the nose so it could be cleaned and prepped for paint

 

remnants of the front axle degreased

 

and then power washed ready for a go on the shot blaster, prior to paint. I wanted though to get the rear axle stripped too

 

 

early axles have odd drain plugs, I tried a slot of angle iron but it just twisted. 1/2 inch spanned end fitted tight though and massive adjustable provided adequate leverage to remove the plug

 

sadly easy was not applicable to the nearside radius arm to rear axle bush. All poly'd up but installer had failed completely to lube up the bolt. thus is had rusted solid to the stainless tube inside the bush. Had this before and with no access for a 20 tonne press, Mr angle grinder with 1mm cutting disc was the only option

 

 

 

The rear spring plate needed removing, the springs are scrap so I cut em. Barry Boy I is

 

This is the offside (with the broken spring) plate, rusted through. going to replace

[richardthestag]

Last thing I did today was get the rear axle stripped

 

The Weller rims allow for the drive plate to be removed with wheels in place

 

This allows for the Diff to be removed

 

Which is also clean and free for nasty horribleness

 

axle left like this till the morrow, Pub called

 

[Guest Hooli]

Just like my '90 Disco, right down to the mushroom headed shafts. They didn't change 'owt they didn't need to did they.

[richardthestag]

battling today with storm Bwian (no no Brian)

 

horizontal rainage and serious gusts and most of them outside.

 

Stripped rear axle down, it needs a fair bit of welding to the spring mount and trailing arm link. but otherwise it came apart without drama. the hubs and stub axles are the same as the front. never knew that

 

 

Broke out the shot blaster for the front axle. Plan is to use the shot blaster where the axle grinder with the wire cup cannot reach. made easy work of stripping away rust and paint. Struggles a lot with blobs of underseal and congealed grease

 

 

this is it after wirecup treatment. Then had to wash it down to get all the glass bead material out of it. I thought I had degreased it enough but sadly not the case. took flippin ages to clean it properly

 

 

 

Momentary lull in the torrential storm force downpour. It was just pissing it down in this shot

 

Plan is now to paint it with epoxy 1-2-1 chassis paint from rustbuster. I want to coat it with rust converter stuff they sell first. So this lot is going home with me tomorrow so I can finish the job in the comfort of my man cave

 

all hubs stripped down, discs are good, bearings are good, most of the bolts are in good reusable shape.

 

Going to knock up a parts list tonight for gaskets, seals etc

[richardthestag]

ok update from the last weekend. actually managed to motivate myself away from the sofa. Mrs Thestag might have encouraged me gently.

 

The parts I dragged back from Devon were all piled up in the workshop, if was a daunting pile to be honest and I have been struggling with motivation to do anything really. Anyway last Thursday I decided to make a start

 

 

This is the nearside front hub carrier, the driveshaft goes through the middle of it and it pivots top and bottom on the front axle to allow steering. The two arms are for the steering arm and drag arm that connects the two hubs together. When fitted it is half full of EP80, they often leak out past the big seal on the back so folk who dont off road use onestop which is far gloopier

 

The tall bit is the bearing carrier. it bolts to the hub carrier above and the disc and bearings slip over the top. The mushroom shaped thing is the drive plate, it bolts tight to the disc and slots into the UJ on the front drive shaft. there are loads of gaskets and oil seals but this is easy engineering.

 

Before and after for the front bearing carriers and driveplates

 

These fellers are mud splash shields for the inner wheel bearing and also lock tabs for the bearing carrier to the hub. cleaned up nicely

 

This nasty little mess of unobtainium is the bracket that joins the flexi brake hoses to the rigid pipes on the hub to the caliper. I bolts on top of the hub carrier and also supports the top of the brake back plate

 

I was pleased at a. how nice it cleaned up in the blaster and b. that I would make another out of a sheet of 20 gauge steel and a flash from mr welder. I plan to make drawings up of the dimensions etc so I can reproduce

 

 

Getting there, next step for this lot is careful painting with POR15, then a thowough clean to remove all and any trace of bead from the blaster.

 

The to do pile is shrinking

 

Next I though I would strip down that brake pipe union, what a bastard, the solid line nuts undid fine, the remains of the flexi hose? no way hose

 

some serious demel action saw them apart. would appear that someone might have been keen on thread lock or something like that. I didnt want to bend the fragile mount so ended up slicing through the nut.

 

 

 

 

[richardthestag]

Spent a couple of hours on Saturday once I had finished all my dad duties 

 

These two are brackets that bolt to the chassis and connect to the rear axle a-frame - stops side-side movement on the axle. I wasn't sure if they would recover and did require quite a lot of attention in the blaster. I will use rust converter on these before por15

 

the ready for rust treatment and por15 pile is growing

 

salvaged splash rings and gator rings for the front hub seal, they are only a few quid new, but probably inferior to OEM and also a lot of a few quid soon mounts up. so pleased to be saving this stuff

 

These two brackets bolt to the side of the chassis and support the boot floor and cross members. I hadnt in all honesty noticed until now that one is very home made

 

 

 

the genuine item is... unobtainium! However again template, flat sheet of steel and some welding will see reproductions knocked up in an hour. mostly cleaned up nicely, the top plate on this is fucked but easy enough to remove and replace

 

 

[richardthestag]

Sunday fun day

 

these are the hubs, they sit on the bearing carriers on each end of each axle Bearings go inside them and discs bolt to them. The mushroom drive plate bolts to the outside of this hub.

 

Here is before and after, that red paint was very very tough, and the steel under it was rusty, so a job worth doing. the wheel face of the hub had gloopy black paint on it which is not going to help with wheel balance. they should be flat but probably not bare steel

 

The wheel bolts onto this side

 

the brake disc bolts onto this side

 

at this point I was spending more and more time unblocking the sand blast gun so I drained the media and filtered it. this is the crap I managed to extract. works a load better now

 

Next up I decided to have a look at the Boge Hydomat self leveling strut. Its job is to maintain a ride height when the car is loaded. bit of a wierd thing because you need to drive to make it work and then after stopping the rear end will sag again if loaded. With this fitted Land Rover found that much softer rear springs could be fitted significantly improving ride and comfort.

 

Anyway these things bolt to the end of the a-frame on top of the rear axle and then to a sturdy cross member on the chassis. There are three ball joints. The can is a highly pressurised vessel with hydrogen and oil of some type. only mine isnt.

 

You guessed it unobtainium, breakers seem to treat them like Cats so they are hard to come by. I have a link to a Citroen Sphere specialist who might have a look. The can is threaded at one end, has a clean damper and does operate but doesn't resist.

 

The big balljoint on the right of this photo mounts down onto the middle of the rear axle. the plate on the left of the photo mounts on the substantial chassis cross member that runs under the rear seat area

 

There is a ball at each end of the can, this is at the bottom, by tilting the mount you should be able to squeeze a very thin 5/8 spanner in and then if you are lucky another very thing 5/8 spanner goes onto the end of the Boge damper to undo the ball joint. This one is stuck solid. so rather than risk damaging the otherwise good damper I opted to remove the balljoint carrier from the bottom arm

 

Simply unscrew etc etc, nope after heating the arm and while wearing welding gauntlets, use a stilson pipe wrench and tap it with a 3lb hammer. It helps if you mark from the holder to the arm with a hacksaw line so you can be encouraged when it starts to move. it did yay

 

the top balljoint is a lot easier to remove, in theory, because you can hold the can in one hand and the 5/8 spanner in the other and simply loosen it. Ended up finding my oldest spanner and "gently tapping it" with 3lb hammer. it did undo

 

ah excessive and completely unnecessary use of fucking thread lock!!!!!

 

Now working at the chassis mount end I thought I would remove the securing ring for the top ball joint, a little heat was applied

 

A mark was made, but no amount of hammering the crap out of it shifted it 1mm. Next plan is to use my dremmel cutting disc on to carefully slice between the flats and the surface of the top mount. hopefully this should allow shit to start shifting

 

Just need to remove the bottom ball from the Boge damper now but ran out of red wine and enthusiasm. More next weekend

[mat_the_cat]

When fitted it is half full of EP80, they often leak out past the big seal on the back so folk who dont off road use onestop which is far gloopier

 

What's the advantage of EP80 for off road use - just curious?

[Guest Hooli]

Easy to change for when water gets in I think.

 

Having said that, everyone I knew who offroaded them used the gloop too.

[CreepingJesus]

Top stuff: although it seems more like a war than a battle!

Hadn't realised how complicated the front end inner metalwork was on these. Shows its heritage in the pics where it's pretty much just chassis and bulkhead though.

[Exiled_Tat_Gatherer]

just WOW - I (for one) really appreciate the explanation and photo's of what's what.......

Any reason for the epoxy undercoat in particular? If it chips, doesn't it mean it's even more difficult to patch/repair?

Noob to powdercoating so just wondering........

[richardthestag]

Easy to change for when water gets in I think.

 

Having said that, everyone I knew who offroaded them used the gloop too.

 

spot on, if wading and even a pez Rangie will wade pretty deep so long as forward momentum is maintained, there is a risk that water will contaminate axle, hub and transferbox fluids! All should be changed after wading.

 

The only way to get the onestop out of the front hubs is by dismantling and cleaning. which is a faff if you regularly wade. Damage caused to front hubs by running water contaminated gloop is likely to extend to the CV joints, BUT if used regularly should last  etc etc etc

 

Good balls (snigger) and modern hub seals to prevent leakage of standard fit oil

[richardthestag]

just WOW - I (for one) really appreciate the explanation and photo's of what's what.......

Any reason for the epoxy undercoat in particular? If it chips, doesn't it mean it's even more difficult to patch/repair?

Noob to powdercoating so just wondering........

 

Epoxy undercoat seals any potential corrosion from expanding (starved of oxygen it cannot rust) it also sticks like shit to a blanket and allows a solid reliable surface for the powder coat. Thus reducing the chance of the powder coat failing either through being blown by rusting underneath or lifting due to poor surface prep

 

Glad you enjoy this thread, I like the audience makes it partly worthwhile I guess

[richardthestag]

Top stuff: although it seems more like a war than a battle!

Hadn't realised how complicated the front end inner metalwork was on these. Shows its heritage in the pics where it's pretty much just chassis and bulkhead though.

 

It is a bit of a battle, kind of feel like stuff is starting to go back together now but reckon on only being 1/3rd of the way through 

 

Yep Rangie Rover Classics are pretty basic when it comes to construction. the latest soft dash cars are the same basic construction but welded rather than bolted together. paradoxically the last of the classics rust worse than the earliest cars. Land Rover were happy with the chassis construction right up until the end of P38 production. Defender carried the banner until a couple of years ago. 

 

If it aint broke then dont fix it, until the technology was rendered obsolete by standards and governance.

 

I never cease to be amused when talking to modern 4x4 owners at their reaction when I tell them that their miracle machine with computers and buttons will go no further than mine off road. In fact in many cases mine will go further due to modern ponsy road tyre fitment and lack of skill at their controls. 

 

The only thing that I think would have helped the original classic back in 1970 would be a physical centre diff lock rather than a vacuum operated control. When the vacuum is connected it all works, when the vacuum isnt, the light on the dash comes on  but the centre diff is NOT locked. worst case scenario is water being sucked up the vacuum pipes and into the inlet which is not going to help. The viscous diff operates the other way round, it will always engage when it needs to but sometimes will NOT disengage

 

Air suspension would also help with extra clearance when deep rutting or rock clambering but other than that the original Range Rover is a very very accomplished machine

[CreepingJesus]

Second that. They were near as dammit 'right first time'.

[Wack]

Regarding the paint process, I deliver things to a company in Durham, called electrocoat, its an electrostatic  paint process and is the main reason modern cars don't rust like they used to , it's a long way from devon but because it's dipped not sprayed it gets right inside all the nooks and crannies ,the tanks are big enough to get a chassis in

 

A  few years ago they did a defender wheel carrier for me , blasted , e coated, then powder coated , before it looked like it'd come out of the sea , it never got put back on the 90 before I sold it , sat in the garden for 5 years and still looked the same as the day I collected it.

[bezzabsa]

Nice progress..

Right my 2p worth

 

Having seen numerous chassis hot Galved, I've yet to see one twist or warp..most problems come when owners 'forget' to make sure there are enough 10mm holes in chassis to allow for air expansion...

Also delivered Hockey Legs to Land Rover from the original manufacturer DDF (now changed to Stokes forgings).. these were powdercoated from day 1...then about 15 years ago LR decided they wanted them Painted in a cost cutting exercise...result was originally you could bang two together and nothing.. painted one would shed their coat if you so much as touched them...so Rapidly went back to Powdercoat..(we think approx 2000 vehicles were fitted with painted arms)

I have owned 3 classics, 1 P reg2 door  3.5 V8 gorgeous.....1 J reg 2 door 3.5 V8 great until it ripped its chassis in 2... and a M reg 300 Tdi 5 door Softdash..Loved them all but the 'wooffle' of the V8 just can't be beat.