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320Touring's 1993 SEAT Toledo- Patience (and sensors) being tested 21/02/2021


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31 minutes ago, mk2_craig said:

Great news! Is it getting less damp in there?

Cheers aye much less damp and a much more pleasant place to be!

Now it has an MOT I may get a new sunroof seal. Though I think I'll check how best to fit it before I order it. If the sunroof panel needs to come off that will be scary times..

 

 

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  • 320touring changed the title to 320Touring's 1993 SEAT Toledo- LIVE: BREAKDOWN (car, not owner) 15/02/2021

Driving the good lady back from her chiropractor appointment...

Last decent hill before home.

 

Stutter stutter. Conk.

 

Fuck.

 

Rolled into this bay. Suspect fuel issues.

IMG_20210215_115008940.thumb.jpg.816fb984a1b3f4ac6863dda3586aa79f.jpg

Car cranks, fires then dies. I reckon it is out of fuel (despite gauge showing fuel and no fuel light on..)

 

Checked the dizzy cap to see if any spark issues.

IMG-20210215-WA0003.thumb.jpeg.80fea4229e7ea287e174ed7182a0d73d.jpeg

Looks ok to me.

Awaiting some petrol to see. 

Wish me luck. Thankfully the burd is ok.

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I have ordered a temp sender to replace the one on the car, and a set of oil drain plug keys so I can check the gearbox oil level..

 

As, most curious. Was taking the burd to get Chiropractor appointment, went round a roundabout (3rd exit) and joined the motorway.

The rumbling got much quieter and remained that way until I parked up.

Fuck knows what's going on..

No obvious heat in the wheels from brakes or bearings

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Today started bright..

 

The new temp sensor arrivedIMG-20210218-WA0013.thumb.jpeg.ece81ee76b8d2dff266b0b9be6a0e80b.jpeg

 

I was determined to fit it today, so finished work and had an hr of light available.

First thing to do was get the old sender out

IMG_20210218_163506935.thumb.jpg.020a31fe0fe09ac994eebf7b13708324.jpg

This clip levers out with a flatblade screwdriver

IMG_20210218_163604649.thumb.jpg.3a73d2903862172de27c27045d68afa9.jpg

Lastly, the sender just pulls out

IMG_20210218_163747661.thumb.jpg.27f76d4dac85527d2ae69b08df4bc5ba.jpg

 

Fitting is the reverse of removal.

All good on that count.

I pulled the plugs to see their condition..

IMG_20210218_163944719.thumb.jpg.0cb2033c156a7663599fda07b0784ec3.jpg

That doesn't look too clever..

Time to check the other potential culprits

Airbox/ filter blocked?

IMG_20210218_164618202.thumb.jpg.09d101a826a76411db9ff7717cf1b1e1.jpg

Nup, no squirrels stashing their nuts here.

What about the injector system and the mounts to the inlet?

IMG_20210218_165208646.thumb.jpg.1b0b8bcd0953cf521455ed4d30b08386.jpg

All tight and secure.

 

I cleaned the sparkplugs then started the car.

5mins...

No change on the gauge

10mins...

No change on the gauge.

Tested the new sender

IMG_20210218_170714683.thumb.jpg.f8d19e803759f8b8d7c73981aca4276f.jpg

Same as the old one...

 

I took it for a thrash.

No change on the gauge, bogging at full throttle (like a carb car running rich).

Got home and pulled a plug

IMG_20210218_172924304.thumb.jpg.5a2744414b153309db75361fd07efd46.jpg

Fuck

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  • 320touring changed the title to 320Touring's 1993 SEAT Toledo- I fixed* it.. still fuckt 17/02/2021

I made a call to @Mk2 Craig this evening, and picked his brains re the two main issues on this tub. Many thanks to him!

Our combined thoughts are as follows:

Rich Running:

Either a vacuum leak (although we would expect that to cause lean running)

Or a sensor issue. With the new sensor showing "1" when having resistance test ( like the old sensor) we suspect the sensors are both failed.

He confirmed that the wiring to the red sensor should just be for measuring resistance - so not to expect any voltage at it.

We suspect a combo of damaged wiring and dead sensor.

My next step is to swap the plug from the red sensor onto the blue sensor - it shows resistance that drops as the car warms up. If it makes the Gauge do something, we can rule out the wiring and focus on the sensor.

 

"THE NOIZE":

Based on Craig's observations, the most common failure issue with the 020 gearbox is it losing a pin from the diff and grenading in spectacular fashion.

I will check the gearbox oil level.

Most likely suspects remain:

Front wheelbearings (we did spin them up, but they were in the air so not under any load)

Rear wheelbearings - not difficult to change.

Tyres causing the noise.

 

The initial plan is to do some more checking of the bearings when I have the car up. Then I'll swap on known good wheels and tyres - hopefully that should rule them in/out.

 

So, some stuff to be getting on with.

 

 

 

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Second stab at the sensor issue today..

I connected the red plug to the blue sensor.

IMG_20210219_134843423.thumb.jpg.1536e58a6713ed9cbeda76d94795ef90.jpg

And ran the car up to temp. It ran rough (instantly solved with reattaching the blue connector). Needle didn't move.

 

The new red sensor was tested at cold 

IMG_20210219_135152140.thumb.jpg.f03aef6a579b3a0806c4889c817c1278.jpg

Not much showing there.

 

Lastly, I grounded out both pins on the red plug to check for continuity

This is the right one

IMG_20210219_135920730.thumb.jpg.678e1eb7c5f520a8100f76351fffefc4.jpg

And the left

IMG_20210219_135929413.thumb.jpg.a5c45f9da726e9f27858596caa430883.jpg

 

Could the differential reading be an issue?

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1 hour ago, 320touring said:

Could the differential reading be an issue?

I don't think so.  All you are doing really is checking for continuity in the circuit which attaches to each pin, and as they are two different circuits they may well have different resistances if you earth them.  

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4 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I don't think so.  All you are doing really is checking for continuity in the circuit which attaches to each pin, and as they are two different circuits they may well have different resistances if you earth them.  

So I can assume the wires are in decent order as there is continuity?

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54 minutes ago, 320touring said:

I also found this vac line hiding..IMG_20210219_143359949.thumb.jpg.a29c4d562a2104c28f06634aa48e525c.jpg

It goes to the back of the inlet hood

IMG_20210219_143522830.thumb.jpg.0b9d4748426e630670c2a3336edb448b.jpg

Thusly.

It's not a big line but it goes down to the airbox...

100% the same vac line that was not attached on the one forthcoming into my fleet. Made no difference.

Just for comparison my list was:

Temp sensor at ECU (done)

Plugs

Leads

Vacuum lines

Spray pattern of injector

Cleanliness of TB (didn't take it off to see underneath though)

Cat is relatively recent

Things I will try as suggested by other ken't knowledgeable souls:

Coil

Replace cat (last resort)

Lambda sensor

Inspection of distributor cap, rotor arm.

Fuel pump and filter. 

Pretty sure you've tried most of these but hey ho.

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  • 320touring changed the title to 320Touring's 1993 SEAT Toledo- Patience (and sensors) being tested 21/02/2021

Today started well:

Got the two red sensors (old and new) tested cold

Old

IMG_20210221_095154272.thumb.jpg.55d4dbf0d947393f8cd25ba777af1e49.jpg

New

IMG_20210221_095228630.thumb.jpg.873edb8e583d536f8e9a7f188a5a29ea.jpg

That's 2.8 and 2.1 ohms respectively.

The blue one showed a "1"

IMG_20210221_095306512.thumb.jpg.80ea4d8dc7a2a975e388ea5c107b004e.jpg

 

I drove it for 25mins or so, then checked again..

Red

IMG_20210221_131916523.thumb.jpg.915bdd0b11028125a14549d87fd8075c.jpg

Blue

IMG_20210221_104058443.thumb.jpg.6bfb6e2b0d0a9aa027561860bb7f639d.jpg

What this tells me, I am at a loss to know.

 

 Then moved on to swapping on a known good set of wheels/tyres to see if that was the cause of "THE NOIZE"...

First, the LHS was swapped, and Test driven. No change.

And it wouldn't idle. FUCK.

Swapped the RHS, test drove, no change

Still not idling.

 

On the way back into the street, I couldn't get 1/2 gears...

Why?

IMG_20210221_114901929.thumb.jpg.86f981fcfbb47bfb7c609d954bbc237c.jpgIMG_20210221_120040885.thumb.jpg.b5442f8751a8f7d110045609267a0fd2.jpg

thats why. Selector rod had pulled out the cup.

As you can see, the end of the rod is flared

Hole in plastic not wide enough to get the tip in (🤭)

Looks to have had the plastic formed round the rod.

The rod was heated up, and pushed into the plastic. It's all back together and all gears are accessible. I'll likely buy another as a spare.

 

Back to the idle/running issues.

I started it up, and it idled fine...😤

All the plugs on the throttle body were pulled, and cleaned. This was the worst.

IMG_20210221_132055160.thumb.jpg.41f976f1eb368ed906045f80d101f065.jpg

With the car running, we then pulled one plug at a time.

The brown plug pictured stalled the car.

Two of the others caused rough running (showing the sensors were doing something)

The one attached to the Idle control valve didn't cause any change.

So it was pulled off.

IMG_20210221_134319023.thumb.jpg.8668a460b43c1def233fecd60f82f6e2.jpg

The mechanism seems to work fine - essentially it's just a spring loaded arm that stops the throttle arm from closing - it takes a reference vacuum off the injection unit.

Again, no change.

At this point the alternator belt was observed..

IMG_20210221_135418613.thumb.jpg.a8d9da07cdf6e784579c4405027acce4.jpg

Fuck sake.

Last check was the rotor cap.

IMG_20210221_141932093.thumb.jpg.1aa81fd781ada070b7db0ef1a517b21b.jpg

Hmm.

IMG_20210221_141955692.thumb.jpg.738648ed0a71785daa1f9af4871a8fe0.jpg

This came off the pins.

They were cleaned up with Emery paper. As was the rotor arm.

Still no difference.

 

Totally at a loss.

The plugs were cleaned, then I drove it another 25 mins or so.

I'll pull them to check tomorrow and see if they are fouled 

 

 

 

 

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Is it worthwhile firing a new dizzy cap, leads and plugs on anyway given it looks like that caps breaking up? 
 

Alternatively a cheap spark tester to have to hand to check what the spark is doing when it’s not idling/running right? 
 

I got one of those online spark testers from eBay a while back. Fine for occasional use. (Not that I’ve owned a petrol in years) 

 

Also - do you know the temp gauge works? I always thought that if a temp sensor wasn’t working in those engines you could swap plugs to test the gauge is working correctly. Assuming at least one of them is working? 
 

Following on from that. Follow the wiring from red sensor to the gauge to see if they have continuity etc? A wiring diagram would be perfect for that. 

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Quite a tough one you've got on your hands as you're in the no-mans land between carburetors and full efi with diagnostics.

That cap really doesn't look good, I don't think I've ever seen that before. If it's that corroded then the gap between the rotor arm and cap could be too great.

These run a single injector tpi setup don't they? If the cars been sitting is it possible the injector is gubbed and it's dribbling rather than spraying? It would explain the sooty plugs and the crap running.

Can you get the injector out?

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