Pieman Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Pictured car is a funny shade of red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Interesting, sort of fits, but as you say circumstancial. Certainly there were not many specials around then with gullwing doors, but we don't actually know whether this one has, given that the shut lines may have been retouched and don't entirely look practical. Going back to the CAD model it is just an artist's impression, and I would like to see scale size driver and pedestrian figures with it. It is generally accepted that the car in the photo has 15" wheels and 78" wheelbase. The model looks to me as if it is scaled for the much discussed Sunbeam Alpine - 13" wheels and 86" wheelbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Longbridge Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, garethj said: It doesn’t include photos, nor does it include the line “it will be in that obscure book about buses and on Pistonheads one day” so it’s all circumstantial I suppose. All we need to do now is phone the number still scratch our heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 And the car described by alfgarnett was in Hampshire wasn't it? Oh but that was definitely a Ford and this is a Sunbeam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 44 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said: All we need to do now is phone the number still scratch our heads. The bloke who drew it up has been on the local Facebook groups so he’s definitely putting the effort in 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alusilber Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 3 hours ago, garethj said: The bloke who drew it up has been on the local Facebook groups so he’s definitely putting the effort in 👍 The bloke who drew it up got a bit obsessed about it, put in a huge amount of work creating his 3D model, declared that it was beyond any doubt that it was some kind of Alpine-based special, then kind of lost the plot and got very stroppy with anybody who was sceptical about his hypothesis, despite the fact that no compelling evidence for said hypothesis was forthcoming... HillmanImp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 1 minute ago, Alusilber said: The bloke who drew it up got a bit obsessed about it, put in a huge amount of work creating his 3D model, declared that it was beyond any doubt that it was some kind of Alpine-based special, then kind of lost the plot and got very stroppy with anybody who was sceptical about his hypothesis, despite the fact that no compelling evidence for said hypothesis was forthcoming... I bet he's a bundle of laughs at parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Alusilber said: The bloke who drew it up got a bit obsessed about it, put in a huge amount of work creating his 3D model, declared that it was beyond any doubt that it was some kind of Alpine-based special, then kind of lost the plot and got very stroppy with anybody who was sceptical about his hypothesis, despite the fact that no compelling evidence for said hypothesis was forthcoming... On the flip side, he’s drawn a car from an old photo and he’s sure he’s right. All the other people who claimed it was a Saab Sonnet thought they were right too. Unfortunately, taking what people say on the internet as a statement under oath and getting cross when others disagree is rarely a path to tranquility. He’s done a pretty thorough job, had a geek-fest on the way: marvellous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrett Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 22 hours ago, garethj said: It doesn’t include photos, nor does it include the line “it will be in that obscure book about buses and on Pistonheads one day” so it’s all circumstantial I suppose. To be fair, this is quite a remarkable find considering this bloke (it's two blokes I think, isn't one in Germany with a slightly different story?) is convinced the car is a Sunbeam Alpine, and here's an ad for a Sunbeam special with gullwing doors. Then again, 'special chassis' means it can't be an Alpine, right? TBH it's all a load of bollocks isn't it, nobody can be certain about any of it. mk2_craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, barrett said: To be fair, this is quite a remarkable find considering this bloke (it's two blokes I think, isn't one in Germany with a slightly different story?) is convinced the car is a Sunbeam Alpine, and here's an ad for a Sunbeam special with gullwing doors. Then again, 'special chassis' means it can't be an Alpine, right? TBH it's all a load of bollocks isn't it, nobody can be certain about any of it. Not an Alpine, so what sort of Sunbeam would you actually base a futuristic gullwinged Special on in 1961? Presumably not a pukka vintage one as they were already valuable. I can't think of any model that would be particularly suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Hillman Husky? Rootes Group joke👍 Mr Pastry and chaseracer 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Point taken, but that wouldn't need a special chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 We’re well past conjecture here, but maybe he means he’s added a few links to the rear axle or a front anti roll bar. Added some outriggers to support a more flimsy body? Could be almost anything and doesn’t prove or disprove anything either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 There just isn't quite enough information in the photo to deduce anything more about the car. If the wheel stud pattern was visible, for example, that might give some clues. I don't think it is going anywhere unless another version of the photo can be found - different angle, or one which hasn't been retouched as I am convinced it has. The answer may be lurking in a photo library somewhere, but probably not available online as it would have shown up by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 The chap got around the problem of looking online by approaching it old school Mr Pastry, CreepingJesus, catsinthewelder and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inconsistant Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 At least he had his pet crow to help. mat_the_cat, 108, CreepingJesus and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Longbridge Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 2 hours ago, barrett said: To be fair, this is quite a remarkable find considering this bloke (it's two blokes I think, isn't one in Germany with a slightly different story?) is convinced the car is a Sunbeam Alpine, and here's an ad for a Sunbeam special with gullwing doors. Then again, 'special chassis' means it can't be an Alpine, right? TBH it's all a load of bollocks isn't it, nobody can be certain about any of it. To be fair, I hadn't noticed the detail about the gullwing doors until now. Intriguing for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I do think a search in photo libraries, by someone who knows how to do picture research properly, might produce something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alusilber Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 4 hours ago, barrett said: To be fair, this is quite a remarkable find considering this bloke (it's two blokes I think, isn't one in Germany with a slightly different story?) is convinced the car is a Sunbeam Alpine, and here's an ad for a Sunbeam special with gullwing doors. Then again, 'special chassis' means it can't be an Alpine, right? TBH it's all a load of bollocks isn't it, nobody can be certain about any of it. Unless “special chassis” actually meant the builder shortened an Alpine floorpan to give the roughly 78in wheelbase that the mystery car seems to have…🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrett Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Alusilber said: Unless “special chassis” actually meant the builder shortened an Alpine floorpan to give the roughly 78in wheelbase that the mystery car seems to have…🤔 Alpine came out in mid-1959. Assuming it took a minimum of six months to build that thing, and being generous to say that it was completed in December 1961 and given a new registration, that means the car could only have been like at most 18 months old when work started at most. Who would buy a almost brand new unibody car and then set about removing every single body panel, shortening the floorpan, then scratch-building a brand new body on it to give it proportions which are nothing like the original car? Could have started with a crashed/written off new Alpine I suppose, but I just don't think anyone would. You might take the engine out, and chuck it in a new chassis, but the Alpine engine is nothing special is is basically identical to that found in all manner of other Rootes cars. I would put money on 'Sunbeam special... special chassis' being a Sunbeam 10hp or possibly Sunbeam-Talbot engine in a bespoke chassis, or off-the-peg proprietary chassis from Watling, Buckler, Halifax etc etc Alusilber 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_FM Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Nice to see this is still puzzling us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethj Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, barrett said: Alpine came out in mid-1959. Assuming it took a minimum of six months to build that thing, and being generous to say that it was completed in December 1961 and given a new registration, that means the car could only have been like at most 18 months old when work started at most. Who would buy a almost brand new unibody car and then set about removing every single body panel, shortening the floorpan, then scratch-building a brand new body on it to give it proportions which are nothing like the original car? Could have started with a crashed/written off new Alpine I suppose, but I just don't think anyone would. You might take the engine out, and chuck it in a new chassis, but the Alpine engine is nothing special is is basically identical to that found in all manner of other Rootes cars. I would put money on 'Sunbeam special... special chassis' being a Sunbeam 10hp or possibly Sunbeam-Talbot engine in a bespoke chassis, or off-the-peg proprietary chassis from Watling, Buckler, Halifax etc etc Maybe this Sunbeam Alpine from the mid ‘50s? CGSB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alusilber Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 14 minutes ago, garethj said: Maybe this Sunbeam Alpine from the mid ‘50s? Yes, I was thinking the '53-'55 Alpine (being, I presume, body-on-chassis) could be a more plausible basis for the 1961 aluminium-bodied special in the small ad. Made in quite small numbers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 The special in the Autosport ad seems to me to be just as interesting as the blue thing. It would be an amazing coincidence if they were one and the same, and the blue car actually turned out to be a Sunbeam of sorts. But I feel they are two different cars . The Alpine Mk 1 had a separate chassis. Wheelbase 96.5", front track 47.5", rear track 50.5", 16" wheels, and a 2.3 litre, 4 cylinder engine. It would be a possible basis for a special, but surely it would be a much larger car than the blue thing. Alusilber 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Longbridge Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 Spotted this one on CrapBook earlier. I see it's been mentioned on Pistonheads previously. I reckon the bloke replying at the bottom has a fair point in that the orange mystery car could be a mk1 version of whatever the blue 'mk2' car is. Not dissimilar... CGSB, LightBulbFun, Datsuncog and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 38 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said: Spotted this one on CrapBook earlier. I see it's been mentioned on Pistonheads previously. I reckon the bloke replying at the bottom has a fair point... That is an interesting one. I have seen the pictures before and it is certainly a well made chassis. I think though that it is a larger car than the blue one. The writeup says that it now has a Falcon Mk2 body which is quite a hefty piece of kit - about the size of an MGB or MX5, and usually 90" wheelbase. The mystery car is smaller than that. I'm not dismissing anyone's theories out of hand. I am intrigued by it, but there is a lot of wishful thinking going on. Incidentally I have restored 1950s Specials and built a few cars of that sort from scratch, so I know what I am talking about. Dick Longbridge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Longbridge Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 43 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said: That is an interesting one. I have seen the pictures before and it is certainly a well made chassis. I think though that it is a larger car than the blue one. The writeup says that it now has a Falcon Mk2 body which is quite a hefty piece of kit - about the size of an MGB or MX5, and usually 90" wheelbase. The mystery car is smaller than that. I'm not dismissing anyone's theories out of hand. I am intrigued by it, but there is a lot of wishful thinking going on. Incidentally I have restored 1950s Specials and built a few cars of that sort from scratch, so I know what I am talking about. Someone suggested the orange bodyshell could have been a heavily modified Sirocco GT shell if I remember correctly. Any ideas on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrett Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 32 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said: Someone suggested the orange bodyshell could have been a heavily modified Sirocco GT shell if I remember correctly. Any ideas on that? Definitely not, it's just a home-built job. If it wasn't for the fact it has a GRP body I'd say it was a pretty great match for this... ...seeing as how it used lots of Rootes components, has a 'special chassis' and gulwing doors. Mr Pastry and Dick Longbridge 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pastry Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 33 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said: Someone suggested the orange bodyshell could have been a heavily modified Sirocco GT shell if I remember correctly. Any ideas on that? I'll just get my anorak.... The Sirocco GT was certainly about the right size and shape, but it was fairly okay as it was, so why would anyone modify it extensively? Bear in mind that a bodyshell wasn't particularly cheap at the time. My thoughts on the orange body - what is it made of? The write up mentions fibreglass, but somewhat out of context. Looking at the general shape, the curvatures, and apparently thin panels, and the detail of the rear end/boot opening it looks like aluminum. I think it is amateur built, maybe over- ambitious but not a bad effort tbh. It is usually easier, cheaper and quicker to make a one-off body in metal than fibreglass, which a lot of people don't realise. The space frame looks very similar to one of the Falcon designs, but presumably the Falcon lickers have looked into that. Dick Longbridge and JeeExEll 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HillmanImp Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 Unless I've missed it on this thread, there's another thread on here about the blue car where I think (although could be wrong) @alcyonecorporationsuggested that the orange one was probably a close-ish match but no cigar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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