37th time lucky: Palladium goes for a drive

[Asimo]

I hope it is your maths at fault,  32pence per mile excluding fuel !?!?  £500 a month since March - ever thought of leasing?

[barrett]

Yes indeed... 0.32 I think. Anyway, it cost £300 and that's all it cost.

I almost constantly think of leasing. I know it's not very autoshite, but a brand new car with free servicing and a warranty etc would be an absolute godsend - no stress about whether or not you're gonna make it to work or not, and all time/effort/money dedicated to actually interesting old cars. I'm just not wealthy enough to do it.

[garethj]

There is a sensible halfway (obviously not exactly halfway) house and that’s to buy something reliable but anonymous for £800 and know that it will still be worth £500 in 2 years time, probably with no breakdowns or big bills either.

That’s depreciation that would get Quentin Wilson trading in his Lexus

[paulplom]

What about my v70 if I manage to buy it from the insurers?

[barrett]

Sorting through some books today I found a copy of Gregor Grant's British Sports Cars, and there is an entry on Palladium including a most charming ink sketch of a Speed Model 

the car referred to in the last paragraph is my one, which is a nice touch. I strongly suspect the only two Palladiums (Palladia?) to have survived the war are mine and the green one, as every postwar reference I have ever found refers to mine. Nice to think it had done an 'astronomical' mileage in 1946!

[wuvvum]

35mpg is bloody good going for an early '20s car.

[barrett]

Well, due to the kindness of @bramz7 I have taken responsibly, if not ownership, of this fine steed. Plan is to see what it needs for an MoT and then make a joint decision as to its future, but in the meantime I have a method of getting to and from work that's not 50 years old (my youngest option). First impressions: never having owned a modern petrol car before I'm amazed at how refined it is. As much as I love the XUD, it makes a nice change being able to hold a conversation at 80mph and not waking the whole street up with rattles and black smoke every morning. It's also really comfortable, the nicest Xantia I've driven, and overall the ride quality, steering and handling suggest it's mostly up to scratch in the hydro department, although the steering goes stiff at standstill which suggests to me a blocked filter perhaps at best or a knackered fdv at worst  (unless anyone else can think of something else?). The heater struggles a bit, and on 'hot' has a worrying and distinctive smell of boiling water, although according to the gauge it runs a little cool, if anything. A coolant flush and a new thermostat would probably be worthwhile. Otherwise issues are mostly cosmetic - a shame, as the undamaged bits have lovely paint with a great lustre and it was obviously in tip top shape until quite recently. My main complaint is the combination of NO TORQUE and terrible mpgs from the unloved 8v 2-litre turbo lump. I'm yet to complete my a tank-to-tank analysis but it's looking like it does about HALF what my XUDT cars would do and sadly that means I probably won't be able to run it as a daily even if it does go through a test without any bother.

In other news: I managed to buy NOS calipers and wheel cylinders for the Sceptre so I now have all the bits for a full brake overhaul, so there is a faint possibility I might actually get to drive round in that before the fossil fuel runs out. We'll see!

Lots of interest in the 404 (from French blokes exclusively) but no sale as yet, so I'm still in cashless limbo until that goes. 

Riley waiting for new exhaust gaskets to be fitted and a tiny bit of remedial bodywork. Palladium disassembled but with a newly repaired radiator and brand new fuel tank ready to be fitted, once the head goes back on (fucked a valve when it overheated, now replaced but has sat for weeks now with no forward motion). When the Peugeot sells I can pay myself back the money I had saved to get the bodywork finished, including paint etc

No movement anywhere else, but we're toying with starting work on the Panhard engine this year, or at least assessing what it might need in the way of new bits.

[bramz7]

I was talking to (perhaps an older version of me) driver at work and he agreed with the lack of torque with that era French petrol engines being their main drawback. Oh and the awful economy too. Oddly that combination of largely useless Turbo and manual box made it the best 2.0 XU for economy for me so far, I reckoned 34mpg, but I'm a slower driver. The XM Auto I had (shudder) was struggling to do 30. 

Glad you're liking it though. 

[artdjones]

27 minutes ago, barrett said:

Well, due to the kindness of @bramz7 I have taken responsibly, if not ownership, of this fine steed. Plan is to see what it needs for an MoT and then make a joint decision as to its future, but in the meantime I have a method of getting to and from work that's not 50 years old (my youngest option). First impressions: never having owned a modern petrol car before I'm amazed at how refined it is. As much as I love the XUD, it makes a nice change being able to hold a conversation at 80mph and not waking the whole street up with rattles and black smoke every morning. It's also really comfortable, the nicest Xantia I've driven, and overall the ride quality, steering and handling suggest it's mostly up to scratch in the hydro department, although the steering goes stiff at standstill which suggests to me a blocked filter perhaps at best or a knackered fdv at worst  (unless anyone else can think of something else?). The heater struggles a bit, and on 'hot' has a worrying and distinctive smell of boiling water, although according to the gauge it runs a little cool, if anything. A coolant flush and a new thermostat would probably be worthwhile. Otherwise issues are mostly cosmetic - a shame, as the undamaged bits have lovely paint with a great lustre and it was obviously in tip top shape until quite recently. My main complaint is the combination of NO TORQUE and terrible mpgs from the unloved 8v 2-litre turbo lump. I'm yet to complete my a tank-to-tank analysis but it's looking like it does about HALF what my XUDT cars would do and sadly that means I probably won't be able to run it as a daily even if it does go through a test without any bother.

In other news: I managed to buy NOS calipers and wheel cylinders for the Sceptre so I now have all the bits for a full brake overhaul, so there is a faint possibility I might actually get to drive round in that before the fossil fuel runs out. We'll see!

Lots of interest in the 404 (from French blokes exclusively) but no sale as yet, so I'm still in cashless limbo until that goes. 

Riley waiting for new exhaust gaskets to be fitted and a tiny bit of remedial bodywork. Palladium disassembled but with a newly repaired radiator and brand new fuel tank ready to be fitted, once the head goes back on (fucked a valve when it overheated, now replaced but has sat for weeks now with no forward motion). When the Peugeot sells I can pay myself back the money I had saved to get the bodywork finished, including paint etc

No movement anywhere else, but we're toying with starting work on the Panhard engine this year, or at least assessing what it might need in the way of new bits.

The car is too new to have an fdv.It will have the later 6+2 piston pump with two outlets ,one for the brakes and suspension,and one for the steering.So it probably is blocked filters.Or the pump itself,which is much easier to change than a  fdv.

[barrett]

I think a lot of it probably is my driving style. I'm so used to ragging old diesels to get the most of the power, changing up as late as possible and basically driving foot to floor all the time, I think I just need to adjust my expectations and enjoy the ride (and get out of bed on time). If only the radio worked I'd be more than happy just wafting along at 60 or whatever!

[barrett]

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me etc

Mike, admiring the car, hadn't seen it since 1954, when he photographed it on a London back street - the photo that sparked my interest in the marque and eventually led to the purchase...

[Sir Snipes]

I do think 90s French cars have aged very well, though generally only pre-facelifts (Phase 1 Clios, R19s, Xantias etc).

[barrett]

Brakes 40 per cent done...

 

[barrett]

Smol update. The Xantia failed the MoT on some grot at the back of the sill (expected), rear door not opening from the outside (expected) and a little leak from the lhm pump (unexpected). I took it over to the guys who did all the bodywork on the Palladium, and within an hour they'd made up a new wheel arch and sill, cut out the grot, welded it all up and sealed it. It's not pretty but it's pretty effective. They also sorted out the door handle, all for some beer tokens. Had my local Citroen guy swap a couple of seals on the pump and it passed no problem! I just need to pay Sam for the car itself now...

My new stereo hasn't turned up yet but hopefully next week I'll be able to have some sounds going on. Annoyingly the stop light is now pretty much permanently 'on' but without any other lights,  and with no obvious cause except 'French'. It'll get the filters cleaned and maybe a hydroflush.  I have a new thermostat to fit as it runs cool and the heater is rubbish. I was going to try blasting out the matrix with a hosepipe but the pipework is fairly buried behind the engine so I need another solution. Do people still use dishwasher tablets or whatever to clean cooling systems? Any advice on that?

The Humber still isn't done. One of the new calipers had a dodgy thread and the pipe wouldn't seal, so Panhard Gary is going to have a go at rebuilding the best of the old ones instead. Every other bit of brake system is new or rebuilt so I hope with that sorted it will bleed easily and can be upgraded from 'hopeless project' to 'rolling resto' status. I probably need to fix the wipers before it gets pressed into service (and get some brakedown cover) but I'm a bit more optimistic about it fulfilling its duty as A Car at least briefly this side of xmas.

Now the Xantia is in action the R16 has been semi-retired for winter. It needs a bit of fettling really after a few thousand hard miles of daily use (and a bloody good wash) but overall I've been mega impressed by how well it takes modern  driving conditions (and my tendency to thrash the arse off it) in its stride.

[barrett]

Tangential update. So, last week the 'other' Palladium came up for sale at an auction so we went down, took lots of measurements and photos and stuff to help with some day building an interior for our one. There are lots of differences between the two cars - the green  one has an internal hand brake and a right-hand gear change, slightly different engine, totally different rear axle and lots of minor detail differences. It was looking very down at heel and hasn't been driven for a decade at least, so I wasnt surprised that it didn't meet its  quite high estimate on the day. Found out later that an acquaintance of mine had bought it post-sale for less than his high bid, which is nice. He's only had it a few days and has already got it running and has been out for his first drive. There's already been a lot of email note comparing, and it's nice to finally open up an exchange of information with the only other person out there in a similar position to me. We hope the two cars will be together at some events in 2020, which will certainly be the first time two Palladiums have been together probably since WW2. Our car is tentatively booked in to have the bodywork finished and painted in January, which is exciting. 

[barrett]

Not much to report at the moment. Everything is in hibernation at the moment. Brake work has stalled on the Humber as Panhard Gary had a coming together with an angle grinder and chopped a bit of his thigh off is laid up at the moment with one of my wheel cylinders on his kitchen counter. It will happen though, definitely. I hope.

The big news is the Palladium went back together for the first time since last summer. Engine seems to be running well and the new fuel tank doesn't leak, plus a new fuel line and tap have been made up which is all much tidier and safer than before. I went for a spin and it all feels good. Will be driving it to Lewes tomorrow to have a few more cosmetic bits done and then we're off to Wales in it in six weeks. Looks like we've finally located a spare wheel, too, which is nice.

I wrote a condensed history of my interest in and time with the car for the VSCC's Light Car section magazine, which has come out quite nicely:

I have a horrible feeling my years of free storage might be coming to an end before too long which will severely impact how casually I acquire long-term projects, but as I seem incapable of actually selling anything at the moment I'm not sure what I'll do if that happens...

[barrett]

Nothing much happening on the fleet at the moment, as I am perpetually broke and until the 404 sells that ain't gonna change.

Last weekend I should have been driving the Palladium to Wales for the VSCC Light Car rally, but naturally this was cancelled, so we'll have to wait a little longer before the two cars can finally meet. Before all the XlockdownX bollox I had driven it back over to Lewes to have a few more jobs done prior to the trip to Wales. Annoyingly, I haven't taken any photos, but it's looking much better now. The main thing was having the box made for the back - this is a small wooden tool trunk fixed between the spring hangers, with a hinged lid, on which the number plate and rear lamps are fixed. You can see what it should look like in this period pick of a car at Brooklands:

To that, the guys made a rough casting off the original front number plate which they'd initially rejected as being too shitty, but I encouraged them to spend some time filling in the worst air bubbles and painting it, and it now looks pretty much spot-on, and has saved the £300 or whatever Tippers charge for a new cast plate. A friend donated a pair of period 'diver's helmet' rear lamps, which have also been fitted (though still need to be wired up), so the rear end is now pretty much finished and it's totally tranformed the look of the car.

We also, amazingly, finally found a fith wheel in the weird size we need. Another friend had one spare, and mentioned he bought it in error tryingt o find a set of five of a slightly different size for one of his cars. I happened to have one in the size he needed so we did a straight swap, and everyone's happy! It's had a bit of paint thrown on and an old tyre fitted, and put on the spare wheel holder (just temporarily) which again really makes it look much more like a finished car.

The new glass has been fitted to replace the temporary Perspex we had cut for the first trip, although it'll have to come out again when the frame is re-nickled. We also had the replacement sidelamps sorted and fitted. These are really difficult to find shape of Smiths torpedo lamps - I found a pair at Beaulieu a couple of years ago, but they had a side-mounting, probably originally fitted to the scuttle of a car rather than the wings, which require a bottom mount. So, Ben chopped the mounts off and reattached them in the correct place and fitted them. These need wiring up, too, when we get round to doing the wiring properly, but it's another little detail that makes it all look so much more finished (if you ignore the unpainted bodywork and complete lack of interior). It drove back beautifully from Lewes, too, on a lovely sunny day. Smashing along at 50mph in this car is genuinely exciting and I'm itching to do another proper road trip in it, as it takes me a good few miles to get used to driving it before I can really relax and enjoy it, so I was just getting into my stride when we got back to the storage shed.

The Humber, annoyingly, is still off the road. If anyone has a Lockheed rear wheel cylinder for a 1966 Mk2 Humber Sceptre please speak up now. The stripped thread on my NOS one has proven much more difficult to sort out than we'd hoped, and my originals are too fucked to rebuild as the aluminium has corroded so badly internally. These are seemingly impossible to find and are not shared (as far as I know) with Mk1 and even some other Mk2 Sceptres... they must be used on something else but I don't know what. I'll try and find a part number and do some searches for that, but I'm not hopeful.

After lots of deliberating about tyre size and tread pattern, I settled on Michelin XAS radials and have had a set fitted. For some reason there are three spare wheels with the car, so luckily I could get this done without having to put it up on four axle stands, which I fear may have been a bit too much for the rusty bastard to take. When the brakes are finally done and I can fit the wheels with fresh tyres and attach the new hubcaps and trim rings, it is gonna be such an amazing feeling and a genuine move forward in what feels like a never-ending project.

The Xantia keeps plodding on, more or less. It's filthy after driving through some very muddy lanes looks like a scrap vehicle (my preferred look for a modern car), still doesn't have a stereo and the screen wash system is so full of crud you get maybe one spray for every 50 tries, but it's comfortable and quiet andwhat with £1.02 pez from Asda and working from home, I can almost afford to run the fucker.

 

Edit: here's a shitty photo of me driving it back the other day. You can just about see the box, number plate, lamps and spare wheel....

[LightBulbFun]

Awesome work, loving how the pallidum is coming together

hell I just love how such a car has managed to end up on the forum!  

how are the controls on the Palladium is it like a "modern" car or is it something like a center throttle or something such (IIRC!) like that albion bus @Zelandeth drove!

and does it have manual fuel mixture and ignition controls on the steering wheel?  

 

it also reminds and I apologise in advance for the Invacar content! 

but it reminds me, that you said the owner of UUI9 the Fiat S76 had a couple invalid vehicles (certially I spotted a Tippen Delta and Model 70 in the videos of it  and i recall that drawing you shared) and it seemed like you knew the chap

so I was wondering if you could get me the details of those 2 vehicles for my own records, I have been wondering for some time which ones they are, so it would be very much appreciated!   

(and Im wondering if he sold the Tippen Delta recently? as HCK972N was sold pictured in front of an unknown Model 70 and the only other person I know who owns a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta is @Mrs6C's friend who I dont think has sold either, and I cant imagine there are that many people who own both a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta these days!)

(although the video is from 2016 and I THINK thats before HCK972N entered circulation, I know it had been on and off ebay etc for a few years until finally selling to Simon of the ICR)

[somewhatfoolish]

Can @Angrydicky help with the brake cylinders?

[Angrydicky]

2 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Can @Angrydicky help with the brake cylinders?

Yes can do that, send just the body over if you want Scott and we can chuck a sleeve in it. Won’t take long. Those ones always get cross threaded, they can be helicoiled but it’s easier to sleeve a corroded bore than fix a stripped thread! 

Dont think we’ve got any on the shelf but I’ll try to remember to have a look today. We’ve just completed a full rebuild (with seals etc) on a pair for another Mk2 Sceptre yesterday as it happens.

[Angrydicky]

@barrett

Does your Sceptre have manual or auto adjusters on the rear wheel cylinders? I've had a look and I've got a new old stock auto adjusting left hand in stock but if it's either of the others we'd need to resleeve your one.

The change on the MKII Sceptre was on chassis number B31201538 and the auto adjusting one has a big adjuster wheel on top of the cylinder so you can easily tell them apart. The manual adjusting ones are not handed.

[barrett]

Thanks @Angrydicky. It is the dreaded auto-adjusters on this one. In my mind I didn't think they were handed, but you might be right. I'll try and send off the knackered original and seal kit I have for it - it will need a total rebuild I think, it's pretty comprehensively knackered. Would it help to include the otherwise good NOS one in the packagae as a source of bits? Not sure when it'll happen - are PP still up and running as normal at the moment?

edit: it's the r/h (driver's side) I need

@LightBulbFun The Pal has a centre throttle, but a 'normal' (centre) gearchange. The handbrake is external, on the right. It has manual advance/retard lever and a hand throttle on the steering wheel. Its actually the only car I've driven any real distance with a centre throttle, but it doesn't cause any problems. Just like in any car, you have to accept that they're all different and get used to the controls, but it doesn't take long to get used to it. After the first trip to France in the car (600-odd miles of only driving that) when I got into my Xantia to drive home afterwards I stamped on the brake as I pulled away the first time... fortunately that's never happened in reverse in the Pal...

Edit: I'll ask Duncan about the Invacars next time I see him

[LightBulbFun]

7 minutes ago, barrett said:

@LightBulbFun The Pal has a centre throttle, but a 'normal' (centre) gearchange. The handbrake is external, on the right. It has manual advance/retard lever and a hand throttle on the steering wheel. Its actually the only car I've driven any real distance with a centre throttle, but it doesn't cause any problems. Just like in any car, you have to accept that they're all different and get used to the controls, but it doesn't take long to get used to it. After the first trip to France in the car (600-odd miles of only driving that) when I got into my Xantia to drive home afterwards I stamped on the brake as I pulled away the first time... fortunately that's never happened in reverse in the Pal...

very interesting  

(reminds me of when other people driving Model 70's for the first time!, sadly far too many people have one short drive of one and write them off as most dangerous car ever, if only they actually drove one some distance they would soon get used to it and realise its not horrible, instead of just writing it off right away because its not what they are used to! ah well!)

how does the hand throttle work in conjunction with the pedal throttle? is the hand throttle more or less for setting your "idle" speed? and if so does it then take the place of a choke? or does the palladium still have one of those?  

also I have to wonder why some cars had center throttles or why cars have throttles/controls where they are today!

[Angrydicky]

16 minutes ago, barrett said:

Thanks @Angrydicky. It is the dreaded auto-adjusters on this one. In my mind I didn't think they were handed, but you might be right. I'll try and send off the knackered original and seal kit I have for it - it will need a total rebuild I think, it's pretty comprehensively knackered. Would it help to include the otherwise good NOS one in the packagae as a source of bits? Not sure when it'll happen - are PP still up and running as normal at the moment?

edit: it's the r/h (driver's side) I need

 

Can do - entirely up to you. We can make one good one out of two potentially using the new adjuster mech etc. Are they both the same hand?

Yes, PP is going for the foreseeable future, albeit with a skeleton crew as the work has sadly died off almost completely. I've been furloughed along with five others from tomorrow.

[barrett]

I've just heard from Panhard Gary and he reckons he has managed to re-tap the NOS one successfully so we'll try that on the car first before resorting to spending more money. If we do need one rebuilt (I can see that being likely given how things are going with the rest of the car) I'll give you a shout before we send them off @Angrydicky

@LightBulbFun the system of car controls we know today was only really standardised in the 1930s. Before that, there was quite a lot of variation. Things like a right-hand gear lever was considered much more 'natural' (most people are right-handed, after all, and a gearchange on a crash box requires a degree of dexterity),  but small, cheap cars like the Austin Seven used central gear changes because it was cheaper to have the gear lever in line with the box, so you didn't have to manufacture and extra linkage to put the lever on the right. The Austin also used a left-hand throttle, and as so many people learned to drive on those cars it quickly became the layout most new drivers in the late 1920s onward were used to. the further you go back in time, the more variation there is in controls, and they only gradually became standardised as the number of drivers increased. The hand throttle and pedal throttle are connected at the carb end, so one over-rides the other. You could drive it just using the hand throttle, but it's much more difficult to be precise. It's really mainly used for starting the car (you want back off the ignition, and have a small amount of throttle) but it has no effect on cold starting, so there is a conventional choke. The starting procedure is: Turn fuel tap on. 'tickle' carburetter (it's a gravity feed, no fuel pump, so you need to force fuel down the fuel line by vacuum), back off the ignition, give it some throttle and press the starter (a floor-mounted button). then as it warms up you can reduce the throttle, and fully advance the ignition. As Vintage cars with ancient brass carbs don't idle brilliantly, the hand throttle is useful to keep a constant tickover when you're waiting at a junction or whatever, but it needs to be backed right off when driving to ensure a clean gear change, as the revs need to die back quickly when you're changing up... easy!

 

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, barrett said:

@LightBulbFun the system of car controls we know today was only really standardised in the 1930s. Before that, there was quite a lot of variation. Things like a right-hand gear lever was considered much more 'natural' (most people are right-handed, after all, and a gearchange on a crash box requires a degree of dexterity),  but small, cheap cars like the Austin Seven used central gear changes because it was cheaper to have the gear lever in line with the box, so you didn't have to manufacture and extra linkage to put the lever on the right. The Austin also used a left-hand throttle, and as so many people learned to drive on those cars it quickly became the layout most new drivers in the late 1920s onward were used to. the further you go back in time, the more variation there is in controls, and they only gradually became standardised as the number of drivers increased. The hand throttle and pedal throttle are connected at the carb end, so one over-rides the other. You could drive it just using the hand throttle, but it's much more difficult to be precise. It's really mainly used for starting the car (you want back off the ignition, and have a small amount of throttle) but it has no effect on cold starting, so there is a conventional choke. The starting procedure is: Turn fuel tap on. 'tickle' carburetter (it's a gravity feed, no fuel pump, so you need to force fuel down the fuel line by vacuum), back off the ignition, give it some throttle and press the starter (a floor-mounted button). then as it warms up you can reduce the throttle, and fully advance the ignition. As Vintage cars with ancient brass carbs don't idle brilliantly, the hand throttle is useful to keep a constant tickover when you're waiting at a junction or whatever, but it needs to be backed right off when driving to ensure a clean gear change, as the revs need to die back quickly when you're changing up... easy!

 

very interesting once more!  

yeah I do recall hearing that the Austin 7 was one of the first popular cars to have now standard control layout, but yeah was wondering if there was any rhyme or reason behind it  (ie if there was a specific reason the Austin 7 had its pedal layout the way it is or if it was just down to the whim of the person who designed that part of the car etc)

(you say left hand throttle, do you mean right hand/pedal throttle? or did the Austin 7 also have some sort of hand throttle?)

(I wonder what the last car to have a center throttle was?)

very interesting on the starting procedure, if its a gravity fed carb does that mean going up hills is an issue like it is in a Model T or did they get round that issue somehow?

[barrett]

yep, just mixing my left and right up. A7 pedal is on the right, not the left!

As long as there's a good head of fuel in the tank there's no trouble going up hill

[egg]

Nice detailed stuff. Would love to see the Palladium some time.

Do you know, did similar control standardisation happen on the continent and State side at about the same time?

[barrett]

Good question. French and Italian cars, certainly, were mostly rhd until the 1930s (and much later in some cases) and the upmarket things usually had the same r/h gear change, centre throttle throughout the 1920s, but cheaper stuff (like the late '20s Renault we used to have) had a centre gear change. Can't remember where the throttle was on that. By the '30s that had become the norm, too.

American cars, being lhd, almost always had a centre gear-change to begin with. I suspect the centre throttle was a worldwide phenomenon and moved over to the right throughout the world at about the same time. I wonder why that actually was?

[jonny69]

After the Model T, Ford made the pedal layout in the Model A as we have it today, with ignition advance (and I think a throttle trim) in the centre of the steering wheel. That was ‘29 onwards. Not sure about other marques, I’d have to dig out my American Car Spotters Guide and see if it says anything.

I think technically it was the Austin 7 that was the first car to have everything where we have it today, but I’d not considered if those sources meant British-made or worldwide. I have it in my head that they pioneered the conventional layout.