Dear Dedra - Arch de Trimophe

[jonathan_dyane]

Difficult news but it's still going to be great when it's done! Can we have some photos of the block without the old head gasket? It's not the end of the world if the block needs a bit of a skim like but it's uncommon (although that HG is super-blown). Do these have a alloy block like?

[Dermist]

Jonathan,

I did have a photo but the camera bricked its self and I lost the shot.  Since this has all happened I have had the block and head decked and skimmed respectively (6 thou and 4 thou).

 

The engine machinist was surprised at the amount of pitting between cylinder 3 and the water passage.

 

Here is a teaser for the next instalment!

 

[Skizzer]

Not good news, especially about the foam in the chassis rails.

 

Do you want your cheese toastie back?  

[Dermist]

No your alright. I have since found 2 pound coins between the front seat. So using my man maths I am £1 in credit!

Boom. It's like the banking crisis never happened!

[Skizzer]

Buy a Lancia and double your money!!!

 

Said nobody else, ever.

[vulgalour]

You might have some luck dissolving the foam with thinners, depends what foam exactly it is.  If you've got some you've pulled out, use it to test various solvents to see if any dissolve it.

[Parky]

If worst comes to the worst, do other TIPO platform cars use the same subframe or is it Lancia specific?

 

Not that Tipos or Tempras are commonplace but likely to be very slightly more common than Dedras. Either that or it's an epic Italian scrapyard road trip thread to look forward to!

[spartacus]

At the risk of sounding like an HS do-gooder wear a mask of you attack that foam with thinners, I used to work at a place where Jaguar subframes were filled with it, somebody spilt a lot once, in liquid form, we had to wear breathing apparatus to clear it up!

[vulgalour]

That's a good call, Spartacus, some of the gasses produced by foam and thinners are pretty nasty.

[barefoot]

 

I am in need of a Jack, wheel wrench, screwdriver and tool bag/tray.  All seem to be missing.

 

 

 

I think these are the least of your worries!

 

Good luck with your shite.

[omegod]

If worst comes to the worst, do other TIPO platform cars use the same subframe or is it Lancia specific?

 

Not that Tipos or Tempras are commonplace but likely to be very slightly more common than Dedras. Either that or it's an epic Italian scrapyard road trip thread to look forward to!

 

Tipo in a scrappy near me if it helps

[3VOM]

You might have some luck dissolving the foam with thinners, depends what foam exactly it is.  If you've got some you've pulled out, use it to test various solvents to see if any dissolve it.

This ^

I'd be trying cellulose thinners and acetone, but as has also been said, I'd want to be wearing a grade eleventy mask while doing it.

[Dermist]

Thanks for the advise regarding thinners and acetone.

One question though, would the thinners effect the paint within the panel ( assuming there is some) if so, would acetone be a safer option on the paint?

 

Also noted is the fume factor. Top tip there.

 

Regarding the tipo, lots of the chassis and under skin fixings are the same (-and the same for the fiat coupe).

I would be interested to know the condition of the bumper supports that are welded to the inner wing. Mine have accident damage and are quite rusty.

 

Thanks for your comments.

[Honey Badger]

Acetone will probably attack the paint as well, especially in areas where it cant flash off quickly and to be honest i dont expect it to remove it if its PU foam, the acetone sprays you use to clean foam guns only work before the foam cures.

 

http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-foam-gun-cleaner-500ml/60133

 

You could try a PU foam remover, i think everbuild make one.

 

 

At the risk of sounding like an HS do-gooder wear a mask of you attack that foam with thinners, I used to work at a place where Jaguar subframes were filled with it, somebody spilt a lot once, in liquid form, we had to wear breathing apparatus to clear it up!

 

In liquid form the foam is full of isocyanate, which is an irritant and toxic and the effects of becoming sensitised are not pleasant, once you are sensitised you  ant be anywhere near to it without having very serious breathing problems, you might release some isocynate by breaking it down with a solvent so working in a well ventilated placeis probably the best idea.

[spartacus]

In my head this foam is filling a chassis rail? I could almost be tempted to cut the side off with a zip disc, clean all the foam out, spray it with weld through primer then weld the side back on, then fill with cavity wax.

[Parky]

I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work. Maybe drill a small hole at one end to enable you to fill it after with wax/engine oil/peacock shit ones repaired so you know it's going to last

[Vin]

Regarding the tipo, lots of the chassis and under skin fixings are the same (-and the same for the fiat coupe).

I would be interested to know the condition of the bumper supports that are welded to the inner wing. Mine have accident damage and are quite rusty.

 

After having two Tipos and a Tempra I can assure you the bumper supports will be rusty. They were never galvanised so suffered from the usual road shite..

 

IMHO you are best trying to remove yours the best you can and clean and refurbish them.

 

In the past I sheared the bottom mounting bolts on mine and had to drill them out and fit nuts and bolts. Once they get rusty they twist and turn at the slightest effort.

 

Can you drill the spot welds and clean them on the bench???

[Dermist]

Sooooo, where to continue. 

Well there has been much fuckwittery on my behalf and a lot of hard work in equal measure. 

I left you last time with the block at the engine machinists about to be decked and the head skimmed. 

As you might expect when dealing with professionals this went smoothly and the hardware was returned to me in timely manor. 

The block was painted, cleaned up and ready to go. 

Machining by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

mmm loverly.

 

I thought before the grand rebuild would commence I would clean up the bores especially the one where some surface rust was on the faulty cylinder. 

So out with the honer and bosh. No, not cleaned up. Bosh bosh. No, still not there. Bosh bosh bosh. Bloody thing, remove the pitting! Anyway, after much boshing I gave up thought I would try the piston ring in the cylinder. Cock. The cylinder is now way over size. Cock cock, and the cylinder is still not fit for piston. 

Now I am looking at oversize pistons and OEM items are as rare as rocking horse poo, so I have to look at forged Pistons with an integrale scene tax (£500) double cock. 

Right, thinking coolly I have to get a second block and ya the original Pistons, speaking to various specialists they want big money for a block, therefore I look to the Dedra and Thema consortium and explain the situation I find my self in. 

Fear not! The parts guy on the end of the phone says we have plenty of blocks, and will be cheaper than other sources, woohoo says I, the only down side is I can't get it till the end of august but still, light at the end of the tunnel. (this is June)

I spend the next weeks busily rubbing down brackets and rebuilding the head. Then painting brackets. 

Skizzer came over one day and helped remove the fuel tank and rear subframe causing even more chaos in the shed! 

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Ugh more work.

 

The day of collection arrived and I travel up to Reditch to collect the replacement block. (This is now early September)

Block back and initial visual inspection seems ok. Then one evening the penny sinks tragically thorough the sicky murk. This is the wrong block ! With the two side by side you can see that the original has a turbo drain pipe and the other has a virgin cast boss where a turbo drain pipe could go. Cock.

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

A quick series of emails to the dedra consortium reveals the issue. This is a non turbo block but fortunately they are are all fundamentally the same, therefore drilling the boss for the oil return pipe will make put me back in the game! Let's go. 

With the block on the milling machine table, I wrung its neck to drill horizontally.

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

M24x1.5mm (for Google txtbots) meant that I rapidly ran out of drills so I had to bore the hole out,

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

and due to the position of the hole I couldn't get an accurate fix with a vernier so a gauge was made up with an undersize and sized boss to test in the hole. 

 

 

Gauge:

Machining by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Once to size the hole was tapped and the pipe screwed in. Sorted. 

Machining by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Machining by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

Buoyed by this, I painted the block the wrong colour and mounted it proudly in the engine build stand. 

 

As a preliminary test, a mere, lets do it for interest test, I dropped a piston ring into the bore. Careful, gently squeeze, that's it. Perfect. Cock! The piston ring gaps are bigger than the other block! Cock cock cock !

 

Out came the bore gauge and yes, it is bored 0.4mm oversize. That means that the Pistons that came out if this block are very rare and valuable! Another quick call to the dedra consortium and yes, it would appear that it turns out it is a special block! 

 

So that block has to be returned. Why I didn't check the piston ring gaps start away I don't know. But it is too late to worry about that now, but I know now how to accurately measure a bore and drill a hole so it's not all been a worthless exercise!

 

Replacement replacement block is being collected in two weeks time. 

 

Whilst I was waiting for the first replacement block Dermist senior and myself decided that a rotisserie should be this years must have car accessory and this would be an excellent excuse to make one for the Dedra initially (to sort out the under seal flaking off) and then for his Montecarlo. 

With a plan formulated and material bought, I went on holiday and left him to it. 

 

Returning, one was completed and the other to follow , he then had the poor manners to go on holiday which meant I could then paint the frame "broken Lancia block green".

Machining by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

Initial assembly and all is good. 

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Second frame arrived and assembled. 

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

 

Now began the tricky task of attaching it to car. So out came all the seats, boot, bonnet and carpet to reduce the weight and this is what we have. 

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Front

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

Rear

Carefully the car was raised simultaneously (front and rear) until it could be rotated easily by hand to 90^. Voila! This photo sequence doesn't quite sum up 2days of drilling holes, cutting metal, welding, thinking and generally problem solving! So a massive thank you to my dad!

The upshot of all this is that the underside of the car can now be easily seen and the verdict is.......

Untitled by Lee Huggins, on Flickr

[Rocket88]

Cock?

 

This seems to fighting you every inch of the way....................

[Alexg]

Blimey, relentless hassle. I admire your perseverance.

[beko1987]

wow! I've just crashed my yogurt truck, didn't see this the first time round!

[DodgeRover]

Is it not possible to fit new liners to your original block or is it a plated bore?

[drum]

Verdict:

Resilience A+

Madness A+

 

Great thread.

[chodweaver]

 

I see these bloody things far too often at work. None of them work - I just end up even more bitter and cynical about everything than I was before...

 

Now what DOES inspire and motivate me is stuff like this thread. Exactly this thread:

 

'Engine is kettled? Bore is screwed? Get a new block(s)'

 

'No turbo pipe port? Bore one out'

 

'Want a rotisserie? Make one. One for each of your cars. So, two, really'

 

So impressed. Keep it up

[Dermist]

Many thanks for your kind words, it really makes it worthwhile and continuing to fight the bloody car into submission!

 

Regarding liners and cylinders, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on the Internet for these engines, that's not say it can't be done I just haven't come across it (yet).

 

With the car in component form practically, if I think about the task as a whole, I do have a little panic attack. All I can do in the meantime is concentrate on one task and getting that sorted. This then leads into the next and so on.

 

To give the project another dimension, my friend where the beta has been in long term storage has mentioned that he needs his garage back by the end of February. Therefore the dedra needs to be movable and waterproof so the beta can come back.

Like I say. Small tasks. Oh cock, I've just had a mini panic attack!

 

Thanks Dermist.

[anonymous user]

This all looks like bloody hard work. I enjoy reading the threads where other people get stuck in and don't give up when set-backs happen

[Skizzer]

This is ULTIMATE AUTOSHITE. It has:

 

Proper engineering.

Beautifully handmade tools.

Mental hospital green paint.

Lancias.

The phrase "Skizzer came over, creating more chaos in the garage."

Crap luck defeated by epic perseverance...

...On a car that is incredibly rare, almost entirely forgotten and heroically ugly in quite a bland way - but otherwise an elegant and interesting design - with a proven market value of one cheese and ham toastie.

 

Legendary and inspiring stuff.

[DodgeRover]

Last time I had a liner fitted it was about £80 including supplying it, being tight I only had the one done and never had any problems

[Felly Magic]

Another Autoshite Hero thread in the making here

[billyboy406v6]

This is inspirational work ! Top dad as well !!