Sold 2004 Reno Scenic II - Now gone. But not forgotten.

[scaryoldcortina]

Connect to adapter failed. Message said "Could not connect to adapter" I think. Adapter is showing in the bluetooth connection screen, and is paired with the phone.

 

Fired up Torque to double check, that connected straight away as usual.

[RustyNuts]

No logging just yet, that's still on the to-do list.

 

Hope you don't mind me saying so but in the programming world logging is known to be somewhat crucial - especially for testing!!! If I were you i'd be onto that ASAP.

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Funnily enough an old gent wondered into our place today asking if we knew anything about these and describing the exact same issue. 

Fingers crossed if the same thing works there'll be a bottle of whisky on my desk tomorrow.

[406V6]

Full marks for bravery trying to deal with broken modern Renaults. I've worked in the IT industry for more years than I will admit to here and can anticipate what's likely to happen. On the one hand I applaud what you're trying to do. Great idea as even the good* Renaults will break from time to time. On the other hand I fear for the trouble you'll encounter with users whose ELM327 adapters are incompatible. You'll need a lot of compatibility testing and code that can cope with slightly incompatible bits otherwise your app will get slaughtered in the reviews.  Also, when you read the trouble scaryoldcortina has had with compatibility of Renault oily bits we just know you're going to hit all sorts of software compatibility problems given the way the Renault so-called engineers just change things for the hell of it.  You'll need a fleet of burst Renaults for trying out your app. At least here on the forum you've got a bunch of enthusiastic and knowledgeable (by the standards of the great unwashed) Renault owners who can help.  With people like scaryoldcortina, Mr Bollox and R9UKE to help you're well on your way to a million*.

[agw9262]

Full marks for bravery trying to deal with broken modern Renaults. I've worked in the IT industry for more years than I will admit to here and can anticipate what's likely to happen. On the one hand I applaud what you're trying to do. Great idea as even the good* Renaults will break from time to time. On the other hand I fear for the trouble you'll encounter with users whose ELM327 adapters are incompatible. You'll need a lot of compatibility testing and code that can cope with slightly incompatible bits otherwise your app will get slaughtered in the reviews. Also, when you read the trouble scaryoldcortina has had with compatibility of Renault oily bits we just know you're going to hit all sorts of software compatibility problems given the way the Renault so-called engineers just change things for the hell of it. You'll need a fleet of burst Renaults for trying out your app. At least here on the forum you've got a bunch of enthusiastic and knowledgeable (by the standards of the great unwashed) Renault owners who can help. With people like scaryoldcortina, Mr Bollox and R9UKE to help you're well on your way to a million*.

Thank god for if-then-else... Never had a Renault but it sounds like variability is the only consistency

[SiC]

Connect to adapter failed. Message said "Could not connect to adapter" I think. Adapter is showing in the bluetooth connection screen, and is paired with the phone.

 

Fired up Torque to double check, that connected straight away as usual.

 

Interesting. If you could grab the exact message that would be great, as different messages appear depending on the problem. Also I guess Piston works fine? (If you use it)

 

How old and what version does your ELM327 adapters say? 

 

My app uses a whole lot more commands in the ELM327 than what Torque does, as I have to talk in a different way to query the modules. Unfortunately on the latest Chinese ELM327 (version 2.1), they actually aren't ELM327 - a cutdown Chinese version. This doesn't support all the commands that I need and is generally broken. It supports literally just enough to do basic EOBD2 diagnostics (which on Renaults, doesn't give you the whole story) with Torque. 

 

Very frustrating. 

 

However luckily the WiFi versions still work fine and haven't been cheapened. They're not that much more expensive either.

 

 

Hope you don't mind me saying so but in the programming world logging is known to be somewhat crucial - especially for testing!!! If I were you i'd be onto that ASAP.

 

Yup, I have tonnes of stuff that is logged when in Debug mode. At the moment the Release build (what you see on the app store) has it all turned off. As the logs contain potentially sensitive details (VIN, error codes, etc) I need to ensure that stuff is encrypted using an asymmetric key, especially if its sent on.

[SiC]

On the other hand I fear for the trouble you'll encounter with users whose ELM327 adapters are incompatible. You'll need a lot of compatibility testing and code that can cope with slightly incompatible bits otherwise your app will get slaughtered in the reviews. 

 

That's a big risk that I've been aware of and there isn't too much I can do apart from giving known working ones. All the other ELM327 based tools have this exact problem - like FORScan, multiecuscan, Carly for BMW, etc. 

 

 

Also, when you read the trouble scaryoldcortina has had with compatibility of Renault oily bits we just know you're going to hit all sorts of software compatibility problems given the way the Renault so-called engineers just change things for the hell of it.  You'll need a fleet of burst Renaults for trying out your app. At least here on the forum you've got a bunch of enthusiastic and knowledgeable (by the standards of the great unwashed) Renault owners who can help.  With people like scaryoldcortina, Mr Bollox and R9UKE to help you're well on your way to a million*.

 

 

Luckily Renaults are scrapped so often that their parts are cheap.

Already started building up a small collection (that this Scenic was going to add to). Like these bits from a Laguna II:

I'm glad that my other half is used to my projects...

 

I've contacted Renault to see if I can get access to some of the technical details, if they do, then would hopefully make it a lot easier. Still requires some testing on live brains though!

 

If I can make enough money to pay me a decent wage and stop so many Renaults being unnecessarily scrapped because their owners can't diagnose simple electrical problems/errors, I'll be happy.

 

Got to get it finished and out of Beta first though!

[SiC]

There was a post on this thread from a guy with a Safrane, but it appears to have disappeared?

 

Anyway I came across some information that he might find useful! If that's you, give me a PM...

[scaryoldcortina]

Interesting. If you could grab the exact message that would be great, as different messages appear depending on the problem. Also I guess Piston works fine? (If you use it)

No problem, I'll try it again tomorrow.

How old and what version does your ELM327 adapters say?

1.5, and I've had them a year at least, probably more.

My app uses a whole lot more commands in the ELM327 than what Torque does, as I have to talk in a different way to query the modules. Unfortunately on the latest Chinese ELM327 (version 2.1), they actually aren't ELM327 - a cutdown Chinese version. This doesn't support all the commands that I need and is generally broken. It supports literally just enough to do basic EOBD2 diagnostics (which on Renaults, doesn't give you the whole story) with Torque.

I've used them for all sorts of access including line sniffing other scantools - it's a full function ELM327 with the full range of at commands as per the datasheet.

I even hard hacked one of them to make a 9600 baud RS232 serial adapter for one of my side projects. Besides, it's the bluetooth to adapter pairing that is failing not the comms to the ecu.

 

Very frustrating. 

 

However luckily the WiFi versions still work fine and haven't been cheapened. They're not that much more expensive either

 

 

Yup, I have tonnes of stuff that is logged when in Debug mode. At the moment the Release build (what you see on the app store) has it all turned off. As the logs contain potentially sensitive details (VIN, error codes, etc) I need to ensure that stuff is encrypted using an asymmetric key, especially if its sent on.

Well, I'm happy to beta test but it would be easier if I had a version that logged!

 

edit - in case you hadn't guessed, I'm an autoelectrician as well as a tech nerd.

 

[f1fan111]

edit - in case you hadn't guessed, I'm an autoelectrician as well as a tech nerd.

 

What do you use this for?? as i know my dad did have one and it was in his attic last time i saw it maybe 5 years ago now lol but i dont think he would have thrown it out

[scaryoldcortina]

I wrote a simple OBD interpreter for it, but its main use these days is as a serial terminal. It lets me access the adapter and the car with no software, it's useful for fault finding and discovering stuff.

[R9UKE]

Is this app available for iPhone? I've avoid range of Renaults here (including a Safrane) that I'd be happy to check compatibility with.

[SiC]

No problem, I'll try it again tomorrow.

1.5, and I've had them a year at least, probably more.

Did you load Torque up before running my app? I was playing around with torque today and found that it sometimes hung up a Bluetooth connection in the background. Also it stays connected if you hit the Home button too. These Bluetooth adapters only allow one connection at a time, so until Torque disconnected/was killed off and released the connection, no other app would be allowed to connect.

 

The code that does the Bluetooth connection is based off the Google examples, so there should be nothing unusual in that to stop it working.

 

When connecting, there are several possible error messages that can be shown. These can be:

- "Failed to connect to the OBD Tool" - This occurs after a call to the Bluetooth stack to request a connection is rejected by the Bluetooth stack.

- "Unable to Initialise the OBD Tool" - Once its connected, a reset command is sent to make sure that its actually an ELM327 that its trying to talk to - not some other random Bluetooth device.

- "Sorry, your ELM327 adapter is faulty and incompatible with this app." - After resetting, a series of tests are performed to make sure that all the necessary commands that are needed to be use actually exist. If this fails, then its assumed that the commands don't exist and thus either a very old ELM327 or a latest incompatible Chinese version.

 

 

Well, I'm happy to beta test but it would be easier if I had a version that logged!

It may already chuck stuff over logcat (the log that is visible using ADB) - I've not really checked thoroughly on that for a release build as I've not needed to see. Another way in seeing what is going on would be to use a OBD2 splitter cable (if you have one) and plug 2 ELM327s in. One for the app, the other with the command "ATMA" being run (a command that you're probably very well familiar with!).

 

edit - in case you hadn't guessed, I'm an autoelectrician as well as a tech nerd.

Cool

I always wanted to be a mechanic as I have a love of pulling stuff apart, fixing things & troubleshooting, however my Dad was an ex-plant hire mechanic many years ago (which he got out of) swayed me into getting a degree instead. So ended up becoming a Electronics Engineer! No doubt if I became a mechanic, I'd quickly have gone down the auto-electrician route given my interest in Electronics + Computers. Maybe this app is a subconscious thing of me wanting to fiddle with cars professionally.

 

Speaking to other people that went down the mechanic route it probably was the right thing to do. Being a mechanic is tough on the body, deal with ungrateful/annoying/nasty/etc customers and in a lot of cases not that great a pay. I suppose like anything, doing it for fun is very different to being paid to do it.

 

I was reminded of that fact when I replaced the Cam Sensor today and while I had a coil out, I thought to have a quick check on the state of the plugs... which I quickly realised on a Scenic you need to remove the wipers/bulkhead/scuttle cover/etc.

Decided to leave that job for another day.

[SiC]

Is this app available for iPhone? I've avoid range of Renaults here (including a Safrane) that I'd be happy to check compatibility with.

Developing for iOS will require writing it from scratch as its completely different from Android.

So will be fairly long way off.

 

If you've can get your hands on an old Android phone/tablet/etc from the last couple of years it should run on that though. Anything Android 4.0 onwards should work.

[SiC]

I wrote a simple OBD interpreter for it, but its main use these days is as a serial terminal. It lets me access the adapter and the car with no software, it's useful for fault finding and discovering stuff.

One thing I noticed while having a view of the live data on the Scenic is that the MAP sensor was reading ~45kPa at idle (99kPa at rest). Does that sound a bit high to you? I was under the impression/belief that it should be around the 30-35kPa mark for most N/A petrols.

 

I did wonder if a dodgy MAP sensor might also be affecting it too.

[RustyNuts]

I've contacted Renault to see if I can get access to some of the technical details

 

Good luck, I've asked those stinky farts for help several times and they don't want to know. Even when you try to ask them publicly on twitter they won't help you either. I asked them for help with a wiring diagram for a bit of kit they fitted moons ago... they didn't want to know even though the car was one of their loyal pals as a press car. They're not interested in preserving their own cars even if it promotes them in a good light.

 

 

There was a post on this thread from a guy with a Safrane, but it appears to have disappeared?

 

Anyway I came across some information that he might find useful! If that's you, give me a PM...

 

 

That was me.. you didn't reply lol so i removed it. But it is seriously one stubborn renault... and by that i just mean the model - this actual car we have is even more so than the other safranes - and we've had many.

 

 

I've avoid range of Renaults here (including a Safrane) that I'd be happy to check compatibility with.

 

I'll second that... i've seen your fleet photos on another forum!

[scaryoldcortina]

I'll try killing torque from the task manager before I try again - tbh, I've noticed once in a while torque will do this to itself and try and recall the device its aready connected to and fail. I hadn't been using it before trying your app, but I hadn't rebooted the phone either.

 

Yes, I have a splitter cable and am well aware of atma monitor mode! I'll see if I can get it working in a basic way first, although it will have to wait until I've finished reassembling the laguna now - the clio went back to owner yesterday.

 

45kpa is a bit high, not out of range high but higher than you usually see on an idling engine - I'd suspect an air leak before condemning the sensor seeing as it can see atmospheric pressure well enough (99kpa with engine off)

[SiC]

I dug out my eBay generic £15 red box special hand vacuum pump and stuck it on the end of the MAP sensor.

 

Pumping the sensor down to -500mmHg, I get 32kPa. Using a online converter thinggy, -500mmHg is apparently -66.7kPa. So I assume its 99kPa - 67 kPa = 32kPa (i.e. ambient - difference = actual)? Thus the sensor is reading correct.

 

I've not tested a MAP like this before, and there doesn't seem to be much information about on the internet on how to. I figured that basically the vacuum pump is essentially measuring the pressure difference from ambient - thus having to take the resulting reading away from ambient. Not sure if that is the correct way of working it out, but makes sense in my head. LOL

 

Of course I'm also assuming that the cheap vacuum pump gauge actually is actually even half accurate... 

[strangeangel]

Huge LOLZ at that letter. It should be proudly displayed like a badge of honour at the front of the service history.

[SiC]

Looking through the service history I found this:

 

Previous to this, the mechanic replaced all 4 coils with known working second hand genuine parts - not a bad thing considering a lot of the aftermarket seem to be a bit rubbish. Then the above was when it broke down again.

 

A mechanic then subsequently replaced coil 1. However there is no record anywhere of the camshaft position sensor being replaced! Also the very common symptom of a failing camsensor on these engines is a flat battery. Basically when they fail, they cause the Dephaser (VVT) solenoid to always be energised - even with the ignition off and doors locked. Not quite sure why it does this (apart from French/Renault), but I know that a new cam sensor should fix it and also Renault did do a software update for it. I also suspect the misfire was actually being caused by that dodgy camshaft sensor and the coils were probably fine.

 

All the signs were there about that camsensor if you know about them on these engines.

 

For all the mechanics on here might be interested to know that, since my app has been on the Android Play store for last couple months and the many thousands of Renaults that have been scanned, by far the most popular (by a significant margin) model was the Megane/Scenic II 1.6 16v. The most common error code, again by a significant margin, was that camshaft position sensor...

 

I know that the crank sensor on these can be very troublesome too from being on the different Renault forums for a bit, but afaik these are less likely to throw a code and just cause a non-start/stall when hot.

 

Something worth remembering in the back of the mind when you next see a Renault in with a 1.6 16v VVT engine.

[SiC]

Bit of an update.

 

Its not gone for a proper drive yet, but I've been moving it around on the drive. One thing I have noticed is that its still been hesitant on accelerating and idles really low when warm. So last weekend I decided to clean the throttle body.

 

What an awkward job that was! I ended up removing a whole host of plastic and metal panels above the engine to get access.

You can see the throttle body to the right of the intake ducts on the top. Its this kind of stuff that gives Renaults of this era a bad name. Pain in the arse for the mechanics, higher labour rates for customers.

 

I forgot to take any pictures but anyway, took it off but it wasn't that dirty - especially compared to the diesel ones I've cleaned before. However there was some deposits around the flap and in the closed position. Put it all back together and it now runs like a dream.

 

Now it runs sweet, I need to find something else to fiddle around with....

 

So the next job was to have a go fixing the rear passenger side window. Anyone who knows anything about this era Meganes and Scenics know that its almost always caused by the electronic module that lives on the window motor. Previously, Renault dealers couldn't get the module on its own, so had to order a whole new regulator+motor assembly at £300 odd a pop. Again, another reason why Renaults of this era get a bad reputation.

 

First step was to remove the door card. 4 bolts to get it partly off, and then many plastic trim clips. Unfortunately at -4C these are not very willing to give up their grip easily. Also being a high spec model, there was a load of different wires that attached to things like puddle lights, infrared handles, etc. After much swearing, I finally got my prize.

 

This little blighter is commonly thought to be the problem. Often water gets into them or condensation corrodes the insides or just a electrical failure.

 

I found this useful video showing how to disassemble and repair them:

 

After a bit of persuasion I was in.

 

Now the insides looked in very good nick, so I was a bit a miss to know what the problem was. So first thing was to remove the relay to test, as this is the likeliest thing that I could imagine to fail, as switching motors can be hard on electrical contacts.

 

A quick blast with the heatgun and it was off.

 

Found the data sheet, tested with a powerpack and multimeter. It was switching like a champ. Hmfph.

 

In that video above I saw the chap pulling off tracks and replacing a few caps. I had a test with a multimeter on the tracks he pulled off and they were perfectly fine. Also the current bridge (the big shiny metal thing in that picture) seemed to be making perfect electrical contact.

 

In that video above, they actually bypass the current bridge with a small wire bridge. I didn't want to do this, as the current bridge is there to detect when the window is fully closed or jammed, thus that wire bridge will affect this detection.

 

So I ended up replacing the main electrolytic capacitor (the tall cylinder part), as these are a very well known part to dry out in electronics and fail. Didn't bother replacing the ceramic caps (the beige coloured surface mount parts he's soldering in the above video), as these, from experience, very rarely fail. If they have failed/failing, it shouldn't stop the module from working all together.

 

I then took the shotgun approach of re-soldering all the surface mount components in-case any joints had fractured. I also heated up and put a bit more solder on that current bridge, as being a large part, vibration and shock over time can again fracture the joints.

 

10 minutes later...

 

Done. Yeah I probably should have cleaned off the flux residue, but it was 1am. By the time that has any problematic effects, it will long been melted down into the next disposable thing...

 

Reassembled the unit and the next day plugged it back into the car and ...

!

 

(ok that was the second time, as I had to reset the window anti-jam positions first but that as a video wouldn't have been as exciting)

 

Free fixes are definitely the best fixes.

 

Running out of things to find to fix now...

 

Plan (that I have decided, but other half doesn't really want to agree to) is to SORN her Astra G at the end of this month, and tax+insure this instead the start of next.

[406V6]

Well done.  Good to see problems fixed in a simple way at the root cause. Reminds me of the time I fixed the motorised valve in my central heating by taking it apart and replacing the microswitch (4 quid from Maplin) instead of the whole valve motorised head (40 quid).

[beko1987]

Ace repair! I'll have a couple of tickets if you roffle this at the end, will be the best sorted shitnic out there!

[scaryoldcortina]

 

Running out of things to find to fix now...

 

 

I said that right before the engine exploded.

[SiC]

I said that right before the engine exploded.

Well I have no record of the cambelt being changed! The book says 5yrs/72k. The last lady owned it for 5 years and her mechanic told her, due to the low miles she did, to not bother So at the very best its overdue...

 

However I'd be surprised if it hasn't been changed once. 150k would be over double the belt interval and also I'd be surprised if the dephaser managed to even last that long too.

 

So yeah, it might end itself in spectacular fashion. Not sure if I can justify the £300-400 to have it changed and due to floating cams, I cba to do it myself.

 

It's the biggest risk about making it our run-around. Breaking down in Bristol, especially in rush hour, would not be fun.

 

But then such a failure would make it easy to seal its fate. Rip off a couple of bits to sell, scrapping the rest would pretty much get my money back I reckon.

[SiC]

Had a good clean out of the interior. The lady who owned it was a non-smoker, but did own a huge long-haired Alsatian. As you might imagine, there was dog fluff everywhere!

 

You probably don't want to see the filth in the car, so here is what a good session hoovering achieved

Yeah. That was empty when I started.

 

 

Also gave the girl a good pressure wash and scrub. Quite satisfying removing many years of grime stuck in between bits of plastic trim and window seals. Actually looks quite respectable now. I also came across this rather large dent in the sill on the front passenger side.

Will this be a MOT failure?

 

 

First thing on Monday, the insurance for this fine* motorcar

was changed to the Scenic, and I popped down to the post office to get the disabled tax class changed and tax bought. £145 for 6 months ... more than what I paid for the sodding thing.

 

Which meant that yesterday evening gave me a perfect chance to give her a good run.

Obligatory petrol station shot. Incidentally, after getting the manual out for tyre pressures, upon closing the glove box, all the heating control lights started working again. Result!

 

So how did it drive? Alright actually. Comfortable place to be sat. Accelerated smoothly. Brakes work just fine. Gear changes are pretty smooth, if a bit slow.

 

Did I say it was slow? It may be my perception from not driving anything that slow for a while, but my god is it slow! Getting to 60 is alright, but 70 is a real determined effort. The book figure says 0-60 in 14s (incidentally pretty much double the Civic) when new. 150k later I imagine some of the horses have escaped and the transmission fluid isn't as juicy as it used to be. Averaged 29mpg from a 34 mile drive around the city - which is not bad at all imo from a petrol auto.

 

The best description I can give being in it is like a bus. It just doesn't want to be rushed and it does make you a much calmer driver. Why bother putting your foot down when all it does is make more noise? Plus getting the revs high makes it sounds like its going to explode anyway and is not pleasant. Everyone else see's a Scenic and expects you to be going slow anyway.

 

Now for the bad bit. It does have a drone noise coming from somewhere. The noise starts at 30mph, gets louder to about 65mph, then quietens down a lot. Not sure if its tyre noise or a wheel bearing moaning? Might have to get it jacked up and give the wheels a good wiggle.

[SiC]

Another really boring update for those that are still interested/even care.

 

Took it into the friendly garage that I know and trust to take a look/listen at the grumbling. Long story cut short, the front near side had a fair bit of play - tightening up the hub nut got rid of that. Did warn that if it is a bearing, if there was any noise it could get worse. However it could have also not been tightened up thoroughly if they had it off when the steering rack was done (subframe would have had to come off).

 

The rear offside doesn't seem to have any play, but its definitely grumbles. On the Scenic, the rear bearing is part of rear discs. The bearing can be bought separately and pressed in, but just replacing discs would be a whole lot simpler. Just more labour. Another option would be to get a set of discs second hand from a scrappy.

 

Better news is that they wouldn't MOT fail the dent in the sill, as its not corroded. They recommended to just clean it up, so it doesn't rust through - so I'll probably just hit it with some rust remedy and paint to seal it over.

 

Not quite sure what to do on the rear bearing. Don't want to risk driving it around, and also soon-to-be-Mrs SiC want to sell it anyway (she really dislikes Scenics). Once I've got the next lot of features for my app done (hopefully before the end of the month), I won't need it anyway.

 

So if we're going to be flogging it, I could get it done and it'd be worth more - or just sell it as spare+repairs and needing a new rear wheel bearing?

 

What do people reckon? 

[SiC]

It's always had a slightly weird smell to it - especially if left for a day, despite giving it a good clean inside. Not a smokers car, but had a dog, so assumed that.

 

Anyway I thought I'd check the most important filter in the car...

Ewww, this pollen filter must not have been changed for a good while! Took it out and left it out. Smells much more normal now!

 

Done nearly 200 miles since buying it, still runs perfectly fine. Autobox changes the gears cleanly and smoothly, engine runs remarkably fine. A bit boringly trouble-free really.

 

Oh found the receipt for the cambelt. Was done in 2010, so 8 months overdue on age, but still 20k or so on mileage. Not as worrying then!

[SiC]

It's now for sale!

https://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/2004-renault-scenic-ii-16-16v-auto-privilege-folder-full-of-history/1156876852

Kinda got bored with it. Nice and comfy to drive around in traffic, but I hit 30yrs old last week and fancy some sort of hot hatch before I become too old and look silly in them.

Wheel bearing still making its droning noise. It's the rear offside that has gone grumbly. No noticeable play, but spinning it you can hear it.

As on most Renaults of this era, the Rear Bearing is part of the disc. Actually not a bad idea and makes the easiest way of repairing this would be to replace the discs entirely. Simply the pads, calliper, calliper bracket and a hub nut to remove. Then reverse to replace. No pressing of bearings required. Discs can be had brand new on eBay for £80 with pads, or whatever the scrapyard man can be bartered down to on some second hand ones. I would get it done, but probably wouldn't get that back in resale value.

I've done 200miles on that bearing and it hasn't appeared to get any worse - however I wouldn't want to drive too much further on it. I certainly don't think its a good idea to go for another hundred on it, nor would I want it to fail on anyone.

 

Positives are that: has many toys which all pretty much work, safe, 4 tyres with loads of tread on, no warning lights (what? on a Renault no way, can't be true!) and engine+gearbox work well.

If a AS'er was interested in it, I could knock off a bit to make it £450 or so, to save me the hassle of dealing with the general unwashed mass public. Had some interest today with it at this price and someone wanting to view tomorrow, so I guess the current price is probably not too far off the mark. Still pretty cheap for a Auto scenic that doesn't have any warning lights on!

Some pictures of the glorious* beige beauty**, if I've deleted and relisted the gumtree advert...





No warning lights! A rare sight...


No one wants it? Thought so.

[Noel Tidybeard]

does this any boxes for the Bubster?

• auto
• 1.6 or less
• small van(ish)