Help needed... erm Vauxhall content...

[Twiggy]

Just 12 months ago I bought a petrol  Zafira, 1.6 16 valve, 02 reg, two private owners and a genuine 81K on the clock. Did a lot to it - well, the garage did - new brake pipe and new back box, cam belt, throttle body cleaned, breather pipes cleaned, service and MOT. Subsequently a new speed sensor, EGR valve and post CAT Lambda sensor... and a new heater matrix. Like it a lot, it`s comfortable, no vices, easy to drive,  Mrs.T. likes it, and it`s economical - 45 to the gallon an a run.

 

However... it has an intermittent problem which is driving me nuts which no one seems able to solve. It starts to misfire, coughing and sputtering. It will do it for a mile or so and then suddenly it`s fine again. Last Saturday it started to misfire just out side Salisbury and progressively got worse. Eventually it ceased and wouldn`t start. A. A. arrived, and after some work with his diagnostic bag of tricks it started up, but still misfiring. After some further work with his diagnostic kit he took out the crankshaft position sensor and it was black, covered with grit, and generally filthy. He cleaned it up and replaced it - car ran like new.

It ran well all week, and Thursday I travelled up to North Wales, follows by a trip to Manchester yesterday... coming back today it continued to run well except for about a mile or so on the M4 when it misfired again, then picked up and ran well the rest of the way home.

I thought the A.A. man had solved it, and it`s back............. !

 

Any thoughts other than a gallon of petrol and a match please ? I really would like to get it sorted !

[D Spares & Tyres]

 missing crap shield, letting road dirt get to sensor?

[eddyramrod]

I used to drive an 04 petrol 1.6 at work which did something very similar.  This turned out to be my first experience of a car going into Limp Mode, which it did because it didn't think it had sufficient oil pressure IIRC.  I suspect an oil and filter change cured it.  If anyone knows of PE04 NNR, silver Zaf, can you confirm the symptoms?

[Twiggy]

 missing crap shield, letting road dirt get to sensor?

 

Crap shield isn`t there, so that could be it... although I wouldn`t have thought it would have collected much in just a week and 850 miles.

 

I used to drive an 04 petrol 1.6 at work which did something very similar.  This turned out to be my first experience of a car going into Limp Mode, which it did because it didn't think it had sufficient oil pressure IIRC.  I suspect an oil and filter change cured it.  If anyone knows of PE04 NNR, silver Zaf, can you confirm the symptoms?

 

Oil and filter changed at 82K and 92K using fully synthetic Comma 5W 30

[Bear]

Just 12 months ago I bought a petrol  Zafira

 

Any thoughts other than a gallon of petrol and a match please ? I really would like to get it sorted !

 

Cleaned, not replaced sensor? Failing intermittently when it gets hot. Sensors are usually magnetic, dirt won't affect it much, but if it's inside a bellhousing rather than reading a wheel on the pulley end, I'd worry about the rear seal leaking.

 

How are your coil packs, anything arcing? I've had a couple of moderns act up like this and going out in the dark and looking revealed sparky escapees going where they shouldn't. Top tip, BTW, if you have a brainfart and think "spraying some GT85 might be like an insulator", stand well back.

 

Also, never admit to owning a Zafira. Just saying "A Vauxhall" is enough.

[Bear]

Oh, and the symptom of my SLK's fuel leak being bad enough to affect the car was much the same.

[Twiggy]

Cleaned, not replaced sensor? Failing intermittently when it gets hot. Sensors are usually magnetic, dirt won't affect it much, but if it's inside a bellhousing rather than reading a wheel on the pulley end, I'd worry about the rear seal leaking.

 

How are your coil packs, anything arcing? I've had a couple of moderns act up like this and going out in the dark and looking revealed sparky escapees going where they shouldn't. Top tip, BTW, if you have a brainfart and think "spraying some GT85 might be like an insulator", stand well back.

 

Also, never admit to owning a Zafira. Just saying "A Vauxhall" is enough

I have to admit I haven't thought of a new one, but wouldn`t a fault code have been stored ? Also no warning lights come on when it does start misbehaving. I will try the darkness test later...

[Bear]

Fault codes get stored when a fault occurs more than once, otherwise sits as a pending code, but if you've got a reader with live readout you can check the pulse and figures to see how they match up with expected demands/loads. I mean, you can't always trust the code anyway - the SLK complained about a cam timing issue suggesting a faulty sensor when the fault was the cam solenoid not engaging, so it got the wrong readings (though the cam sensor did fail a year later). Generally if a car is misfiring intermittently it's something that won't throw a code unless it lasts for a decent amount of time, and you need to think about the whole 'suck squeeze bang blow' to feel what is out of whack. Which is damn hard on some cars.

Thing is with a sensor, the AA man could just have jiggled wires into a new position and they're moving back. If the sensor isn't expensive I'd get a new one, blast the connector with contact cleaner then pack with a bit of dielectric grease, and see how it goes. But my gut feeling would be coils given all the other bits you've mentioned and the age of the car.

[Cavcraft]

Throttle body and an Italian tune up. I think this will be the X16XEL engine, they're prone to this sort of thing and need (in my opinion) a regular good caning.

[Twiggy]

Fault codes get stored when a fault occurs more than once, otherwise sits as a pending code, but if you've got a reader with live readout you can check the pulse and figures to see how they match up with expected demands/loads. I mean, you can't always trust the code anyway - the SLK complained about a cam timing issue suggesting a faulty sensor when the fault was the cam solenoid not engaging, so it got the wrong readings (though the cam sensor did fail a year later). Generally if a car is misfiring intermittently it's something that won't throw a code unless it lasts for a decent amount of time, and you need to think about the whole 'suck squeeze bang blow' to feel what is out of whack. Which is damn hard on some cars.

 

Thing is with a sensor, the AA man could just have jiggled wires into a new position and they're moving back. If the sensor isn't expensive I'd get a new one, blast the connector with contact cleaner then pack with a bit of dielectric grease, and see how it goes. But my gut feeling would be coils given all the other bits you've mentioned and the age of the car.

Thank you for that Richard - it`s a bit complex, but I think I follow it. So, should I change the coil pack first ?

[Twiggy]

Throttle body and an Italian tune up. I think this will be the X16XEL engine, they're prone to this sort of thing and need (in my opinion) a regular good caning.

 

According to Autovaux, the engine code is Z16XE. I have to admit that I drive it very delicately, motorways at 60/65... the throttle body was cleaned out at 82K... is it due for another ?

[Bear]

It's not an expensive bit - probably about the same cost as any diagnostics if you can't run them yourself. Do the plugs at the same time whilst it's removed, just to remove another service item I'd definitely do on an 80,000 mile car as you've not mentioned it. If you're not DIYing it I'm sure someone local would help - I would do it if you were near me, but plugs are best done on a cold engine.

I know it's not scientific "what's going wrong", but you can spend hours peering at coils waiting for an issue or waiting for a code, or worse behaviour.

 

It's worth noting that on almost every car I've owned with a cartridge coil pack, they tend to fail between 70-100,000 miles - IIRC the A-class one is a recommended service item at 85000, for example.

[Twiggy]

It's not an expensive bit - probably about the same cost as any diagnostics if you can't run them yourself. Do the plugs at the same time whilst it's removed, just to remove another service item I'd definitely do on an 80,000 mile car as you've not mentioned it. If you're not DIYing it I'm sure someone local would help - I would do it if you were near me, but plugs are best done on a cold engine.

 

I know it's not scientific "what's going wrong", but you can spend hours peering at coils waiting for an issue or waiting for a code, or worse behaviour.

 

It's worth noting that on almost every car I've owned with a cartridge coil pack, they tend to fail between 70-100,000 miles - IIRC the A-class one is a recommended service item at 85000, for example.

 

I used to do everything myself, but age and galloping osteoarthritis mean it goes to the garage now - I can`t even change a wheel any longer. I do appreciate your offer - just a shame you`re not closer. Like oil I imagine, plugs last an awful lot longer than they used to. It was serviced at 82K and 92K - the plugs were changed at 82K, but without looking I don`t know if they were at 92K. What`s the recommended mileage change ?                  It never occurred to me that a coil pack is a service item but I have heard that they are prone to fail on higher mileage Zafiras. Mot is due on the 12th of May, so I`ll get the lot done starting next week.

[Bear]

Plug intervals depend on the plug used, really. They should be alright after 10,000 miles, so I wouldn't bother with them at this stage unless you suspect they've been fouled or incorrectly installed (I've seen a cracked plug causing interesting behaviour before as the insulation held together for some time).

[Bear]

Oh, and with the MOT coming up the Italian Tune Up once the coil pack is on is an absolute must, clear the thing out and take a good long drive to the MOT station.

[Twiggy]

Oh, and with the MOT coming up the Italian Tune Up once the coil pack is on is an absolute must, clear the thing out and take a good long drive to the MOT station.

 

Indeed I will, and thank you for all the help.

[Twiggy]

Well, it passed its MOT... no advisories other than rusty coil springs at the rear and a leaking radiator, which has been replaced.  The coil pack and crank position sensor have been renewed, and once back it ran like a new `un. For 510 miles, then it started again. Fortunately I was only a couple of miles from home, and it only lasted for perhaps a quarter  of a mile but it`s back. and it`s driving me nuts. I`d appreciate any further suggestions guys.......

[PhilA]

Does it do it (or has it done it) after being driven hard? I had similar symptoms when the lambda sensor on mine had the heater fail. Would go ok if it was hot but it would crap out intermittently if the exhaust was cool (low revs, low load).

I'd guess your ecu should recognize and throw a code for a failed lambda sensor heater though.

Might not be on the list of things that bring on the malfunction light, but may have thrown a code if it is.

 

Might pay, if you have laptop or Android based phone to pick up a cheap diagnostic widget to read the stats of the motor and grab any codes it may throw.

 

Something that causes the vehicle to falter badly should* be picked up by the ecu. They're often cheaper than getting someone else to do it and it's just a plug under the dash. The Android phone software is even free.

Other times it can give utterly useless information such as "lean condition", which falls into "No shit, Sherlock", leaving you just as baffled as you were before.

I'd wager a loose or iffy connection on a sensor otherwise, failing fuel pressure or any other host of items that can cause a fuel injection system to falter. These days, at least you can ask for the lies the computer wants to give you first as a starting point.

 

 

 

 

Phil

 

 

 

*Should be. All vxls r sht ect ect.

[Twiggy]

Does it do it (or has it done it) after being driven hard? I had similar symptoms when the lambda sensor on mine had the heater fail. Would go ok if it was hot but it would crap out intermittently if the exhaust was cool (low revs, low load).

I'd guess your ecu should recognize and throw a code for a failed lambda sensor heater though.

Might not be on the list of things that bring on the malfunction light, but may have thrown a code if it is.

 

Might pay, if you have laptop or Android based phone to pick up a cheap diagnostic widget to read the stats of the motor and grab any codes it may throw.

 

Something that causes the vehicle to falter badly should* be picked up by the ecu. They're often cheaper than getting someone else to do it and it's just a plug under the dash. The Android phone software is even free.

Other times it can give utterly useless information such as "lean condition", which falls into "No shit, Sherlock", leaving you just as baffled as you were before.

I'd wager a loose or iffy connection on a sensor otherwise, failing fuel pressure or any other host of items that can cause a fuel injection system to falter. These days, at least you can ask for the lies the computer wants to give you first as a starting point.

 

 

 

 

Phil

 

 

 

*Should be. All vxls r sht ect ect.

 

Thank you for the reply Phil... the way it`s driven doesn't seem to have any effect at all. The lambda sensor has been changed - that was indicated by the light on the dash then subsequently confirmed by the garage code reader, and the garage is kind enough to plug its diagnostics into the car and not charge me for it.

I don`t have any code readers, and even if I did I wouldn`t be able to make any sense of it. Neither the AA, who`ve been out to it 3 times now, nor the garage can find any stored faults. There are no warning lights coming on the dash either. Whatever it is is something and nothing. I too have wondered if it is a faulty connection somewhere too, but how the devil do you find it ? 

It seems to happen after being  driven 20 to 25 miles from cold... but on one occasion after cooling down, it did it after only half a mile. The symptoms do seem to indicate a fuel problem - on a "proper" car I`d be thinking blocked fuel filter, or perhaps a knackered condenser. It`s becoming a challenge - one I could do without !

[Tetleysmooth]

I think this is a matter of elimination.

 

I know nothing about these cars, but assume they have a fuel pump relay and coolant temp sensor.

I'd try changing those two next.

[cros]

I think this is a matter of elimination.

 

I'm afraid I'd start with the entire car...

[Coprolalia]

Orlll Voxorls r....

 

Echoing what others have said, I would recommend getting a cheap diagnostic code reader. Plug it in and drive around for a week with it connected.

I would then do a couple of days of italian tune up, ragging it all to crap, and a couple of days softly softly.

Most code readers will do live diagnostics.

If it starts playing silly buggers, the live reader should flash up anything going on at the time. You can then go and google the code.

Alternatively, it may just not like being driven gently. Might explain why after being in the hands of someone else who may or may not drive it like they stole it, it runs better.

 

Summary:

Thrash thrash.

[ruffgeezer]

Is this the one with the ecu mounted the the engine? We had one that started out like this and moved on to just cutting out at random, turned out to have an internal fault with the ecu. I think we used BBA Reman to repair it.

[Albert Ross]

Internal ECU faults, as above, and sometimes the throttle body itself (which is an ECU/Actuator kind of thing) need replacing. Neither are cheap... Biggest problem stems from the shit oil previous owners tend to use, Coupled with drab "zero throttle" kind of driving, they tend not to breathe.

[Twiggy]

Thank you for all the replies.

 

Albert Ross and ruffgeezer,... hopefully something a little less drastic first - the garage is fitting a code reader tomorrow, following DurtyVag`s suggestion which they thought was an excellent idea.  We`ll see what that brings up....... 

 

If necessary I`ll have to get the ECU repaired.

 

Your help is really appreciated, thank you.