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A tragic day


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Posted

I drive a lot of miles in big things for a living. Usually the big things can contain over 50 people's lives. I make mistakes. I don't intend to but the mistakes I make can be fatal to a lot of people. Sobering if you think about it.

Posted

Twitcherman - I've admitted to at least two bits of dodgy driving just in this thread. Three arguably. I do think more people should hold their hands up and admit they were in the wrong though.

Ok, in the unlikely event I ever do something wrong,I promise I'll own up.

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Posted

I don't get the whole need for a car to feel like a nervous old bag of bolts on the motorway. Driving my Mk2 Escort across Europe was not relaxing, even at a 60-70 mph cruise there were constant corrections needed just to keep it going in a straight line. Overtake a HGV and the little Ford would choose its own course as the slipstream / buffeting from the truck blew the Escort all over the place. Going up some hills at 70 mph was hard work, and there were a few times when Johnny Foreigner would overtake the Ford and then decide to leave the motorway at the next junction. The old Escort needed a lot more braking zone than any modern - I was nearly wiped out by a Mk2 Megane in Belgium that cut into the lane I was in whilst braking hard. Yarghh - still don't know how I avoided contact.

 

The thing is, the rest of the motorway network shouldn't be penalised for the likes of me in a 37 year old Mk2, D.Wobbler in a 2cv or Dugong in a Volvo Amazon. In my 15 yr old Mercedes 70 mph uphill isn't an issue, it'll pass trucks on the motorway without a twitch and it was designed to do 145 mph on the Autobahns. It is as safe as a modern and drives like one. It doesn't need to be constantly shouting about road conditions as it isn't going to get out of shape anywhere near as easily as the Mk2 Escort would - that's what 25 years of development work was all about.

 

I don't actually enjoy motorway driving old stuff that constantly bombards the driver with unnecessary feedback. Gimme a boring modern that will sit at high speed in virtual silence with plenty of stability, great brakes (just in case ) and I'll find it much more enjoyable than driving an older car. Faster, too.

Posted

I do a fair bit of motorway driving and in my experience the fast moving VAG drivers are rarely a problem and seem like seasoned motorway veterans who know how to use the road space available to their advantage. I do understand that if you're driving an Allegro 1500 in the inside lane at a reckless 57 mph occasionally nipping into lane two to overtake a slow HGV their antics can seem somewhat aggressive.

Posted

As with most things, its all relative.

 

Tailgating at 70-75mph might mark you out as an excellent driver frustrated by someone less confident in their own abilities and the capability of their car.

 

Or it might mark you out as an arrogant over confident bellend using dangerous driving to intimidate people who are acting (just about) in line with the law.

 

Who's to say? I guess it depends which car you are in (in the above scenario, not in terms of make.).

 

I don't think anyone can pinpoint a "type" to blame, I think everyone has moments of error and pushing their luck. Most of the time we get away with it. When we don't I don't really think it matters what type of road we are on.

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Posted

I despise tailgaters, more so on a single carriage road when it's busy, what do these dickheads want me to do? Pull over so they can get a  car in front? Not effing likely, squire. I don't flash my brake lights, but I do ease off a bit I'm not giving in to their bully boy tactics.

 

I've said it before, if you want to make almost everyone around you drive like an absolute knob warbler, get a small car and put 'L' plates on it, it attracts every sad wanker going.

Posted

I don't think anyone's advocating tailgating , but when you're used to travelling at high speeds and the way that 90% of your fellow travellers are likely to be driving, ie to get somewhere in the shortest time possible and with the least amount of drama or deviation from their chosen course. When you do come across a laid back,probably in their head sensible driver who isn't in a hurry and doesn't see why people would get credit to buy a BMW or need a company Aldi to charge around like a knob, there's going to be some instant tailgating if not a disaster.

Much like when the giffer in an Octavia estate pulled into lane 3 at 60 mph to overtake a coach traveling at 57 in front of me yesterday morning, yes he indicated and yes I might * have been travelling a little over the limit, but as I stood on the brakes whilst attempting to melt his back numberplate with my full beam,for a second I was tailgating him very aggressively . As he was about 1/4 of a mile from the coach he was able to swerve back into lane 2 to let the BMW driving wanker go on his important ( en-route to a full English) way. No doubt muttering about tearaways and why I needed to be so rude on a Sunday morning.

Posted

I'm 24 and used to travel 60 miles a day on the M6 between J17 and J21. Probably one of the worse sections in the country, my driving lessons taught me nothing about driving in conditions like those I encountered. What did teach me was my Dad prattling on at me. Me being 18/19 found this rather annoying and would often reply with such things as "I've got my licence now you don't need to tell me how to drive"!  (internally adding "you twat"). I know look back on those early days of teenage arrogance and think "hmmmmm that twat was right all along". 

I was lucky really to have that extra begrudgingly received tuition.   

Posted

I despise tailgaters, more so on a single carriage road when it's busy, what do these dickheads want me to do? Pull over so they can get a  car in front? Not effing likely, squire. I don't flash my brake lights, but I do ease off a bit I'm not giving in to their bully boy tactics.

 

I've said it before, if you want to make almost everyone around you drive like an absolute knob warbler, get a small car and put 'L' plates on it, it attracts every sad wanker going.

I'm teaching my youngest at the moment and as her 1.0 Arosa is a bit more likely to stall than her instructors BMW 120d, we have had a few stressful junction episodes.

But, no one has beeped,tailgated or swerved around and sped off, most people are by nature considerate and Im surprised you've had bad experiences.

Posted

There's no excuse for tailgating. There's also no excuse for sitting in the wrong lane going 20 mph slower than the traffic flow in a car that isn't really suited to the road It is being used on.

 

I do 1000+ motorway miles a week. Normally in new or nearly new cars but quite often in older stuff too. In the Mk2 Escort at 65-70 mph the Audi Autobahn Aggressor squadron looked totally different from how they look when driving a modern. The VAG fast lane squad doing their normal 80-85 mph stuff looks scary viewed from a Mk2 Escort that can't easily get out of the way, whereas from a new Å koda or even my old Mercedes they don't appear aggressive in the least.

 

Don't forget, back in the good old days of the 80s the motorways were full of Cavaliers and Cortinas all doing 100 mph, loaded to capacity with photocopier spares, often driven by folk who'd had a liquid lunch. HGVs battering along at 75-80 made things more fun, as did the lack of speed cameras.

 

Modern motorways are great, but they need higher speed limits and better lane discipline. The much derided VAG reps are often the only folk on the motorways who actually use them correctly, and have suitable cars for the gig.

Posted

I don't even want to think about driving the Vauxhall Viva on a motorway!

 

I don't mind an older car but that age of car just isn't geared to do it.  12" wheels, a 3.9:1 diff and a four speed box is ridiculous.  70 mph is well over 4000 rpm.

 

I generally drive quite slowly on motorways anyway, often at the same speeds as the trucks, which is safe enough.

Posted

I don't get the whole need for a car to feel like a nervous old bag of bolts on the motorway.

 

Neither do I - that's not what I meant by "insulation". My Xantia (for example, other middle-aged cars are available) was smooth, comfy, fast and responsive - perfect for non-exhausting long-haul work - but I was also 10 times more aware of its limits, and the road conditions, than our Mk7 Fez which I've had more time to (try and) get used to. Do you honestly think your own driving would be at the same level if you hadn't spent all those years driving Mk2 Escorts etc and learning about how dangerous cars can actually be? It doesn't matter how many fatal crashes people see on the news or drive past the aftermath of, they're so cocooned and removed from their environment that it's not 'real' to them until they've obliterated a biker or been slotted by an HGV.

Posted

I commented about the Vicious Efficiency of my ABS on here, last week....

 

basically.. a transit driver, parked driverside against the kerb, engaged drive/turned left/flicked indicator - 'simultaneously' - and launched himself across the road & into my path (doing strict 'Safe 20')... he didn't/couldn't see me as the road is cambered away and his mirrors were probably seeing more sky than the Hubble!!

 

I STOPPPPPED!! and he didn't...... he probably didn't even know.....

 

My wife complained of a sore shoulder as she was totally 'eh?..WTF!!', not sensing it happen.

 

 

TS

Posted

Aye. The first big crash does tend to be an education.

 

Driving that old Mk2 it was surprising just how vulnerable it felt on the Autobahn. No ABS, airbags etc. Lots more concentration just to keep it going in a straight line in cross winds.

 

If anything it was a brilliant reminder of how far cars have advanced over the last 40 years. Getting into my Focus after 1000 miles in the Mk2 felt like time travel.

Posted

 

The thing is, the rest of the motorway network shouldn't be penalised for the likes of me in a 37 year old Mk2, D.Wobbler in a 2cv or Dugong in a Volvo Amazon. In my 15 yr old Mercedes 70 mph uphill isn't an issue, it'll pass trucks on the motorway without a twitch and it was designed to do 145 mph on the Autobahns. It is as safe as a modern and drives like one. It doesn't need to be constantly shouting about road conditions as it isn't going to get out of shape anywhere near as easily as the Mk2 Escort would - that's what 25 years of development work was all about.

 

 

But the odd old car isn't the reason the speed limits haven't been raised. The UK's motorways have in  the decade 2001-2010 much lower road death totals than Germany, France or Italy (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/13/speed-limits-reduce-number-road-deaths), yes cars are safer now both in terms of being crash-worthy and in how they ride and handle. But the human in control of the car is pretty much unchanged, if anything they are more likely to have a distraction than drivers of the past and are certainly more insulated from the road and the conditions.

 

I'm pretty happy to sit on a motorway at 70 in a 1 litre Allegro as I am used to it, yes I need to allow bigger gaps than I do in the 1992 Rover which would sit at 90+ on an autobhan but it isn't a huge challenge.

 

The problem is if the limit was 80 people with very little training in car control at speed would do 90 pretty much legally, if the limit was strickly 80 then a lot of people would be driving more slowly now than they do so no-one benefits. I think the UK's network balance is pretty much correct.

Posted

Didn't Top Gear recently do an experiment where they tested an Insignia to see how fast they could go and still stop in the Highway Code 315 feet 70 mph stopping distance?

Posted

Would a higher speed limit have prevented the coach hitting the stationary car on the hard shoulder or encouraged people to leave a bigger gap in heavy fog?

Posted

No, but neither would The current limit or even those variable limits.

 

Coach driver appears to have been driving too quickly for the conditions.

 

On a clear day he quite probably wouldn't have hit the car.

Posted

People drive a lot more aggressively on motorways than they used to because we live in a society where if an employee misses a sales appointment or fails to do their target number of deliveries they'll get sacked and replaced. Behind every hard driven A4 or Sprinter driver is a total cunt of a boss who wants to screw every last second and penny out of his staff regardless of the consequences.

  • Like 10
Posted

People drive a lot more aggressively on motorways than they used to because we live in a society where if they miss a sales appointment or fail to do their target number of deliveries they'll get sacked and replaced. Behind every hard driven A4 or Sprinter driver is a total cunt of a boss who wants to screw every last second and penny out of his staff regardless of the consequences.

"We don't have the blues on & I'm NOT jumping that red" were the words used to my boss earlier in the week as he insisted we "hurried up" to get somewhere. It was NOT an emergency, although it was important. Yes, it was a kind of pressure, to which I was NOT gong to submit. To quote someone from long ago: better late... than "late!"

  • Like 1
Posted

People drive a lot more aggressively on motorways than they used to because we live in a society where if they miss a sales appointment or fail to do their target number of deliveries they'll get sacked and replaced. Behind every hard driven A4 or Sprinter driver is a total cunt of a boss who wants to screw every last second and penny out of his staff regardless of the consequences.

 

I don't buy that. I've been a paid driver, and there were times I'd hoon around ridiculously. But no-one was tearing my arse if I took my time, so I decided not to risk my licence on someone else's time. I found I was only driving quickly because I liked driving quickly - no other reason. I think that's true for an awful lot of people. There's rarely any genuine need to push on quite so much.

Posted

I've been in a courier office when the boss has berated a driver for not doing all his drops and grabbed the tracker data off the PC and berated the driver for not going fast enough.

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Posted

Some of us motorway marauders get daft times allotted for long trips. Last week I was expected to get to South Wales in a Transit for an appointment the office had arranged. Unfortunately they often get their ideas of how long it takes to get somewhere from Google maps - no leeway is given for traffic, accidents or whatever. In their heads it is 3h50 to get there from Liverpool. To make life more fun the vehicles I drive are often fitted with GPS trackers. Hit 90 on the motorway and the office are on the phone. Often asking why I'm 20 miles behind where Google reckoned I'd be. ..

  • Like 1
Posted

No, but neither would The current limit or even those variable limits.

Coach driver appears to have been driving too quickly for the conditions.

On a clear day he quite probably wouldn't have hit the car.

As I mentioned earlier the weather and traffic conditions were ok on Saturday morning 15 minutes before when I passed j12.

A few years ago the coach would have been doing 70 and allowed in the 'fast' lane,wouldn't have hit a car on the hard shoulder then.

If I had to drive everywhere at 56mph my attention might wander.

The stupid 3 lane then 4 lane then use the hard shoulder/don't use the hard shoulder section of the M1 around Toddington can be a bit confusing .

None of these points are meant to suggest anything,just some random thoughts.

Posted

Coaches can do 62mph legally. Well, actually, they can still legally do 70mph, but they're limited to 62.

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Posted

No one is more important, they just think they are because their car costs more. The problem is that they are so keyed up on being better than everyone else that forget to look where they are going and drive according to the conditions.

 

This is so true.

 

A lot of the problems we experience (lack of courtesy usually) can be explained by the massive population density in large parts of England, too. Successive govts have been conducting social experiments on us mortals, to see what the breaking points are. Add to that the intention of govt trying to make a profit out of every one of us, whether it's driving licence renewal, dubious DVLA fines or £25 for a replacement 'log book' and collective blood pressure is surely at an all-time high? Then society's health degenerates, costing the NHS more while GP waiting times go up and up.

 

How much more can the average geezer take, who's on a typical wage (which is well under the 'official' national average) living in the middle of suburbia?

Posted

What boils my piss is people that join motorways and dual cabbageways at 40mph . Obviously in an old motor , van or truck this is fine cos you may be flat out . Joining traffic that is going at 70 at 40 is just plain dangerous imo .

Posted

Coaches can do 62mph legally. Well, actually, they can still legally do 70mph, but they're limited to 62.

OK, but why?

Why can they legally do 70 but have a restrictor?

 

And on that subject, putting aside the age-old topic of lorries being limited to 56mph and the resulting snail-races, why are more and more vans, and even car-derived vans being limited to 60, 55 or even less?

I saw a 7.5t truck with a sticker on saying how it was limited to 50, and then a bloody Vauxhall Combo with a 60 sticker on it. How is deliberately getting in the way helping?

 

If you can't trust your drivers to drive their small van at 70, then allow them enough time to get to their destination using minor roads.

Posted

I don't buy that. I've been a paid driver, and there were times I'd hoon around ridiculously. But no-one was tearing my arse if I took my time, so I decided not to risk my licence on someone else's time. I found I was only driving quickly because I liked driving quickly - no other reason. I think that's true for an awful lot of people. There's rarely any genuine need to push on quite so much.

 

Sadly, Warren's point is closer to the norm IME...

  • Like 2

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