Anyone wishing for an electric car for Christmas?

[Micrashed]

 

 

And now after all that jargon and bollocks we probably look like right nerds!

 B-Tec OND Electrical Engineering Nerd from 1988 - in another life before I became a nurse. Spent some time with the Norweb Federation working with Bob McMillan.

[Partridge]

No. The thought of a petroless/dieseless world depresses the fuck out of me if I'm honest. Yeah they can be interesting and have their place in the world but they're a bit too clinical for me.

[Stroller133]

And someone must be making a killing on TRIADS. Our triad charges are now £32 a kwh instead of about 11p for the peak kwh hours on a winter weekday afternoon. I have to implement initiatives to shut down processes to avoid them under an efficiency 'banber' but its really cost avoidance as many of our processes use more than the 'saved' kwh to recover later in the evening.

[cort16]

I think battery swap stations was part of renaults original plan which is why the batteries are leased .

 

I think renault actually built a few of them in France..

[Micrashed]

I thought no one knew for sure when a TRIAD was coming or going to be charged for? Or are the DNO's now warning high use customers?

[Stroller133]

We get up to 28 warnings over a season with an hour estimated time slot, rated low med & high risk. I only found out the other day they don't even have to fall between 4-8pm which is the high tariff period for our larger sites. They have nearly all been 5:30-6:00pm over recent years though.

Just to be clear we don't know when they actually were until the end of the winter.

[forddeliveryboy]

Well, Porsche was making quite powerful EVs over a hundred years ago. (Weak link was the power source - he had to add a petrol engine to recharge them on the hoof when customer got range anxiety). The heavy electric motor has advanced even less than the battery, rather it's modern electronics which allow AC motors to work well. Sure they're efficient in the same way as oil is a hugely efficient energy store - it's everything else which makes them so inefficient.

 

Convert a 2cv to electric power - ye gods! The engine is the finest bit of the car and is incredibly efficient (lightweight, long-lasting, low-maintenance and simple) compared with Ferrybridge and its associated sourcing and distribution losses.

 

I've driven a Zoe and i3 (and many other older EVs) and I'd be surprised if the Leaf was in some way so amazingly better that it took my breath away. It's comfy? Jeez, they must have fitted slightly softer springs than the usual modern shite. Start talking about an ultra-lightweight, ultra low drag 'leccy car with a tuned lawnmower engine and solar cells for a power source, or a little turbo-diesel driving a hydrostatic machine and I might be very interested. Hydraulic motors are 5 or 6 times lighter than electric motors, and the regen braking is 80-90% efficient, compared with a typical 25-30% of an electric car.

 

At least the industry will get a decent shake-up, with engineers gaining an upper hand once more, for a while.

[dollywobbler]

Tesla have demountable batteries. Google the videos of the tech being launched. It's hilarious. Americans will whoop at fuppin' anything.

 

I really thought I loved combustion engines, but spending time with electric cars has certainly changed my thinking (as you may have noticed). I find them very interesting. No combustion engine can deliver power the way an electric motor does. It's a bit like a very, very powerful DAF Variomatic, with no noise.

 

It's a good point about battery nasties, but that makes Hybrids the worst of all worlds. I think they're a shitty compromise myself. Most of them seem to offer little actual economy benefit over normal petrol cars, unless you do a lot of town driving, as the petrol engine now has to lug around a huge battery and motors for the electric bits and similarly, the electric motor has to lug around an engine when that isn't being used. Pretty sure someone managed to work out that a BMW i3 Range Extender will do 35mpg if totally out of battery - and with a 9-litre petrol tank, you're still not going to get very far. Most hybrids just seem to target tax breaks (company car tax especially) rather than actually be any good.

[Partridge]

 Most hybrids just seem to target tax breaks (company car tax especially) rather than actually be any good.

Which is why there's so many Priuseseses being driven badly at the moment. Angry because they've lost their 320d, probably.

[purplebargeken]

Tesla please. I'll give you my verdict after about 12 months.

[forddeliveryboy]

I was going to mention this. There is no such thing in my opinion as "free" energy. I don't have any scientific theory but a bit of me is even sceptical that wind power could in some way be harmful in ways we have not yet considered (I don't meaning blighting the landscape). Energy(and/or Mass) is finite in a system, so any energy we utilise is causing a change to the system - the system in this case being planet earth.

 

Sure, you have to pay for turbines and blades and concrete and bolts and masts and (eventually) storage/HVDC Europe-wide grid interconnection and things but are you wondering if too many wind turbines might slow down Earth's orbit?

 

I sometimes wonder if you had a big enough flywheel if you could persuade our planet to migrate a little from its course. Cheapest weapon on Earth could be the Chinese threatening to force all its people to jump up and down at the same time...

 

 

What really gets my goat are those who believe that electric cars are somehow good for the environment. This is naievety of the first order often exhibited by people for whom engineering is something mystical - they're perhaps 10-20% more efficient than a decent modern diesel largely because of limited energy recovery from braking. Renewable energy forums have crawled all over the subject.

 

Worst thing is, they're likely to give the appalling Nuclear industry a new will to live in the UK, just when it was all looking rather bleak for them. Even if you couldn't give a hoot about their ability to anihilate half the country in the event of a big accident, it's the most expensive form of energy ever.

[forddeliveryboy]

I really thought I loved combustion engines, but spending time with electric cars has certainly changed my thinking (as you may have noticed). I find them very interesting. No combustion engine can deliver power the way an electric motor does. It's a bit like a very, very powerful DAF Variomatic, with no noise.

 

 

I could take you for a ride in a good steam car, Dollywobbler, fill you with sales-guff and you'd go away thinking they were something else, full of excitement for the future. They perform very similarly to electric cars, but without the range problems. SImilarly low amounts of exhaust pollution to an EV, also. Actually, steam power does make sense.

 

An ICE generates power as well as delivers it - it's the Ferrybridge/Sellafield and electric motor all in one. They do a pretty good job, beyond traffic jams. EVs for commuters in the South-East and Midlands makes a lot of sense.

 

The chances are that a hybrid is the way forward, on account of the problem of storing electrical energy. Just not like the ones which have appeared recently, I hope. The long and short of it is that to shift a given mass a certain distance in a certain time you need a given amount of energy, dependant on the mass, the acceleration (including hills) and drag.

 

Reduce the drag, reduce the mass (so improving acceleration!) and you're beginning to make progress. Whether we're burning wood from South America at Ferrybridge (just over 40% efficient, then there are distribution and conversion losses - not least the 75% efficient battery charger and the fact that a battery leaks energy badly), playing with nuclear energy or smiling to the sweet sound of a flat four, straight six or V8 has relatively little effect on energy consumed.

[Stroller133]

Not really worried about slowing down the earth. Maybe solar power might be a better example. It appears to be free energy, but if a land mass was totally covered in cells to generate electricity then this energy could no longer be utilised for photosynthesis and ground/atmosphere may become cooler. Although we wouldnt produce co2 by harnessing this energy, we may reduce co2 utilisation by reduction in Vegetation growth. One field in Cornwall may not really matter, but if significant land mass was used it might.

[Stroller133]

I think the focus for engineers/scientists should be towards making cars/appliances more efficient and reducing usage rather than expecting a cheap plentiful, risk-free source of energy.

[cort1977]

I thought about getting a Chevrolet Spark, apparently it is quite quick (280 lb ft of torque) and it's OK to drive.   But it's $21000 even with rebates, it's a cheap Korean hatchback without much charm and the dealer couldn't have been less interested.

[oman5]

I'd be quite happy to own an electric car, once they've got past the "token gestures toward giving a fuck about the environment" stage as personified by the current (ha!) crop of crap range/impractical/hugely expensive cans of mediocrity out there, and somebody makes one that IS a realistic alternative.

(So long as I can keep my smelly old fossil fuel car for playing with, obviously)

 

An industry standard sized battery pack that is easily swapped at a service station would end range concerns and make even current level technology EVs a realistic proposition.

[rml2345]

 

Ive seen the future, and its the past...

 

Excellent idea, I'd love to drive trolleybuses for a living. It would also be hilarious watching motorists wrestling with 20 foot bamboo poles every time they dewired.

Count me in.

 

Edit: Sorry, this doesn't really add much to the debate.

[406V6]

Given our tax regime I'd be quite interested in trying an electric car as a second car. Great for all those local relatively short runs from cold where a petrol engine is very inefficient. The low end torque and refinement of the electric car is very appealing too. Haven't test driven one yet but I will at some point.

[Micrashed]

Excellent idea, I'd love to drive trolleybuses for a living. It would also be hilarious watching motorists wrestling with 20 foot bamboo poles every time they dewired.

Count me in.

 

Edit: Sorry, this doesn't really add much to the debate.

No, it does because looking back towards what we used not that long ago could be the way forward, cities that got rid of trams not very long ago are now re-investing in a tram infrastructure for public transport as clean(ish) and reliable(ish) public transport. Also I dig the idea of electric buses and transport being so cheap, reliable and frequent that it replaces the car for most short to medium term journeys.

 

Im not a green tree hugging hippy, I invested in solar PV for purely selfish reasons, to reduce my overall long term spend on gas and electric, and to provide some semblance of energy security in the event of a blackout (well, during daylight at least) as it can be fooled into generating even when the DNO supply is off. In a few years Im hoping that the tech will be there to allow me to store surplus to use at night. I'd like to think that "renewable" energy, tidal, wind, solar and wood are the way forward to generating nearly clean electricity in the future, but even they cost the environment - take solar PV, a typical panel takes more energy to produce than it will recoup in 10 years of life - fortunately they are supposed to have a 20 to 25 year design life. Even then the manufacture is a dirty process producing heavy metal waste, greenhouse gas emissions and toxic gas emissions. Anyone who thinks the technology is green is misguided.

My mono PV cells are rated at 45gm CO2 per KWh of energy produced over a 10 year lifespan in what they cost to produce, factor that into what they are supposed to produce over 10 years and suddenly that figure is bloody large and directly comparable to the shit thrown out by a coal fired power station.

 

I would still like to think that electricity is the way forward in motive power but thinking outside the box for battery power has to be the way forward. Not sure about steam power as a viable motive power source, if only because it lacks the easily turn off and onable nature of petrol/diesel/electric power.

[dollywobbler]

I think the focus for engineers/scientists should be towards making cars/appliances more efficient and reducing usage rather than expecting a cheap plentiful, risk-free source of energy.

 

I must concede - one problem I have with the Leaf is that it is PACKED full of kit. I do wonder what the range would be like if they'd instead worked on a stripped-out version. But then, folk would rather own a car with electric windows blah blah, so it wouldn't sell. 

[twosmoke300]

The original Honda insight had the right design brief . Keep it simple and light . Alloy body shell etc .

[robinmasters]

It's a bit like a very, very powerful DAF Variomatic, with no noise.

 

If Renault and Nissan aren't using that sentence in their adverts by the end of the week, I'll eat my hat.

[brickwall]

Whispering death.......

[oman5]

There was firm in the states offering conversion kits to build your own EV, using lightweight stuff like old vw beetles, Geo metro/Suzuki swift. Basically a motor bolted to the existing transmission which is left in top and a bootfull of lead acid batteries. Not as crap as you'd think so long as you aren't doing long distance motorway work.

They were generally 60 mph max and about 50 mile range.

I'd personally find this much more appealing than forking out 30k for a leaf whatsit where you're paying battery rental too, plus it's cheap enough to keep your petrol burner for longer trips.

[mercrocker]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SURELY this is the only electric vehicle of choice

[Tayne]

Am I right in thinking that Teslas don't have a gearbox?

 

Surely adding a three or four speed would allow the motor to spin slower, use less power and increase range even when accounting for the added mechanical drag.

[Mr Lobster]

I could certainly make a good case for a Renault Zoe in my life. Purely as a second car but it would be useful as I tend to do a lot of less than five mile journeys from home to our unit, kids school and all that and an electric car would make sense for that stuff.

 

Yeh it's not exciting but that wouldn't be it's purpose. I'd really like to try one anyway.

[dollywobbler]

Am I right in thinking that Teslas don't have a gearbox?

 

Surely adding a three or four speed would allow the motor to spin slower, use less power and increase range even when accounting for the added mechanical drag.

 

Most electric cars don't have gearboxes. I don't think electric motors behave like petrol ones. They don't have a sweet spot, so it's not a case of trying to keep the revs down to maximise efficiency. If anything, I think it's better to keep the revs up so it doesn't burn the motor out. The Formula E race cars seem to have gears, but I reckon that's just to keep the drivers happy. I doubt it's actually necessary.

[brickwall]

Yes, you just ramp it up like a Scalextric.

[FredTransit]

Do I want something electric? NO! Hydrogen maybe. What I don't get is where the electricity will come from. We are constantly been told we are a week away from blackouts, this winter could overload the national grid, blah blah blah......