Project Korean Cortina - MOT day

[anonymous user]

Would have expected a screwdriver in there

[mat_the_cat]

You're probably right, but I think the chances of finding one now are slim to none! The car was 12 years old when I bought it, so guess I should be pleased to have anything left of the tool kit at all.

[mat_the_cat]

On 12/17/2021 at 1:07 AM, mat_the_cat said:

'avoiding laying on a cold floor and taking the gearbox out'

I can't put it off any longer!

Well...actually I can. The leak has always appeared to come from the main shaft output seal, and spread around by the rotation of the propshaft. Yet that was the very first thing I changed, with no improvement. After that I pulled out the oil pump to find a small nick in an O ring, so figured I must have found it there, but no.

 Pulling off the output flange I started to examine the surface closely, to see if that was damaging the seal.

There's a visible mark, but it's more of a polish than anything I can feel, so I'd be really surprised if this is the cause. The flange is secured to the output shaft with an M12 bolt, with a tab washer and bush between it and the flange.

On the inside of the bush, I now realise there is an O ring, which has clearly seen better days!

I think it's got to be worth a try to replace this, and obviously the rear main seal too, before going to the trouble of exhaust off and engine lowered, just so I can get the gearbox out. Given that a new flange is only £25 I'll probably replace that too, to give a perfect sealing surface. 

[mat_the_cat]

When I last changed the rear main seal, I couldn't find anywhere listing the correct one - all R380 seals I could find were for the much more common 4x4 'box. So I simply matched up a suitable seal from the housing and shaft dimensions.  I'm now wondering whether I've made a mistake...

My Google skills must have improved in the meantime, as I found one with little problem this time! This was the old seal...

...and this the replacement.

A double sealing lip, and an extra, non-sprung lip facing outwards, presumably as a dust guard. I didn't take into account the speed of the output shaft, which could be close to 20 metres per second at the shaft/seal interface.

With this extra lip, I couldn't use a socket to draw it into place, so I cut a crude wooden spacer to protect it.

Then used a socket and threaded rod to make sure it went in square.

Next was my shiny new flange! 

For a moment I thought the internal spines were different, as I struggled to get it to engage - fortunately it was just my ineptitude, as it went in nicely once I aligned it right. The new O ring was lightly greased, and places between shaft and flange.

All tightened up, and locked in place with a tab washer.

You'll notice I've been tight and reused the tab washer; my logic was that I've bent over a previously unused portion, so no different to a new one. I'm half expecting to have to take the gearbox out anyway, if this doesn't fix the leak.

[mat_the_cat]

Oops. Never prod at it!

This is part of an old repair, from 1999 IIRC. At the time, a large section of the floorpan was replaced - in fact I think it was the last time I paid someone to do any welding on it!

I noticed a bit of a crusty area while I was underneath, and you know how it goes! Ended up cutting out a fair bit of the old patch, and the side wall of the chassis rail to get back to decent thickness metal.

Long term I'm still thinking of getting the shell dipped in the next 10-15 years or so. At which point, depending on how bad they are, I may go for new floorpans and chassis rails. It'll do for now!

I've not driven this properly since July, so I'm itching to get behind the wheel again, and see if my leak fixing has been successful, or whether it's leaking from elsewhere!

[mat_the_cat]

Wikipedia fame!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Stellar

[mat_the_cat]

Legal for another year!

A few jobs to do, but hoping that the sticky brake is mainly down to lack of use.

[mat_the_cat]

I confess that this shouldn't have actually passed, as when I came to check the windscreen washers, nothing happened after the 8 month layup. I mentioned this when I took it in, so was quite surprised to get a pass. Thinking they'd managed to fix it I asked what the problem was, but no, "I know you'll sort it so I've let it go". Ah well, gives me more time to sort it!

I was half hoping it would be a wiring issue (free fix) or the stalk (I have a brand new spare), but it was not to be. The motor is still drawing a hefty current, but no movement whatsoever. And I don't have a spare, although annoyingly I do for the headlight washer pump! It should be possible to bodge in a universal pump, but I'd rather get one which fits properly if possible. I'm struggling to find anywhere which lists it at the moment, but I like a challenge! Might phone up the dealer tomorrow for a laugh...

On a more positive note, I took it for a drive on Tuesday and absolutely loved it  Difficult to pinpoint exactly why; obviously it's nice to have a bit of go, but it's more than just that. It doesn't handle exceptionally well, it's hardly a refined waft-mobile, but yet I felt really happy to be behind the wheel. I think this sums it up well:
Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, even you may not understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.

[RayMK]

45 minutes ago, mat_the_cat said:

I confess that this shouldn't have actually passed, as when I came to check the windscreen washers, nothing happened after the 8 month layup. I mentioned this when I took it in, so was quite surprised to get a pass. Thinking they'd managed to fix it I asked what the problem was, but no, "I know you'll sort it so I've let it go". Ah well, gives me more time to sort it!

I was half hoping it would be a wiring issue (free fix) or the stalk (I have a brand new spare), but it was not to be. The motor is still drawing a hefty current, but no movement whatsoever. And I don't have a spare, although annoyingly I do for the headlight washer pump! It should be possible to bodge in a universal pump, but I'd rather get one which fits properly if possible. I'm struggling to find anywhere which lists it at the moment, but I like a challenge! Might phone up the dealer tomorrow for a laugh...

On a more positive note, I took it for a drive on Tuesday and absolutely loved it  Difficult to pinpoint exactly why; obviously it's nice to have a bit of go, but it's more than just that. It doesn't handle exceptionally well, it's hardly a refined waft-mobile, but yet I felt really happy to be behind the wheel. I think this sums it up well:
Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, even you may not understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.

Earlier this evening I was looking around to see if my Stellar had resurfaced, but no, it seems to be still resting or rusting somewhere.  However, Sri Lanka appears to have quite a few Stellars on the 2nd hand market.  If you get really desperate for spares, maybe it's worth a try?

 https://riyasewana.com/search/cars/hyundai/stellar

[mat_the_cat]

It's amazing how many of them are still out there! I'm sure it won't come to that, but interesting to browse the ads anyway. Some interesting modifications!

[mat_the_cat]

I've managed to locate one in Dubai for £11! Not sure what postage will be yet, but let's see what the dealer comes back with...

I also need the grommet too, as that is badly perished and was starting to leak.

You can see from the shape of the pump that it needs to be close in size to hold it in place.

Bodge solution may be to fit a hose stub into the washer bottle, and a universal pump if OE is too costly. 

[Rod/b]

How quick do you need it? I’m coming back to UK at the end of the month so if they can get it to Abu Dhabi i’ll bring it with and post it when I get back. Way the post works here it’ll probably be quicker too, unless its being couriered. 

[Noel Tidybeard]

that pump doesn't look too unique! i would imagine pump body is pretty much a standard diameter it's just the inlet being 90°

[cobblers]

That looks the same pump as a dodge ram. AC Delco part 8-6721 

Includes a grommet

[cobblers]

Or even modern Kia Rio 

[mat_the_cat]

6 hours ago, Rod/b said:

How quick do you need it? I’m coming back to UK at the end of the month so if they can get it to Abu Dhabi i’ll bring it with and post it when I get back.

Thanks, that's very kind of you - but I've already ordered it. It was only £10 delivery for Fedex so surprisingly cheap! https://partsouq.com/ was who I've used - I've looked at their site before but only for obtaining part numbers, thinking postage would be too expensive. But pleasantly surprised, assuming it does actually arrive...

4 hours ago, cobblers said:

That looks the same pump as a dodge ram. AC Delco part 8-6721 

Includes a grommet

I did wonder whether it was used on other vehicles, as I figured whoever made it for Hyundai probably supplied it to other vehicle manufacturers too. I bow to your superior knowledge of washer pumps! :-p

[Rod/b]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up then. They just act as an agent and don’t keep any stock of their own. I’ve not heard good things.

[mat_the_cat]

Well, it's showing as shipped now, so I hope that it will be OK. I've done a bit more Googling of the company and whilst I found plenty of people who got their parts, there were more than I'd expect who only got a partial order, and several mentions of poor customer service when things do go wrong.

In the meantime I've decided to improve the cooling system, as I really want to be able to sit in traffic (well, not really...) on a hot day, without worrying! It's never actually boiled over, just is running on the hot side when moving slowly and stationary. I have stacks of airflow, but seems like that's not capable of bringing the temperature down as quickly, or as much as I'd like.

The radiator is a hefty one, from an Audi 200 Turbo, and is the double pass type so something like 10-15% more efficient for a conventional type of the same size. This link explains better than I can but the coolant basically flows in a U shape, so each molecule of water effectively flows through the radiator twice.
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5279/~/what-is-a-“double-pass”-radiator%3F

I'd like to claim that I chose it for that reason, but in reality it was the biggest which fitted between the chassis rails, and handily had both inlet and outlet on the same side, making plumbing easier. The downside is, and one which I didn't realise until a couple of years ago is that the extra restriction to flow requires a more powerful water pump. I think what is happening is that at low speeds, the pump is barely circulating enough water to transfer heat effectively. It seems worse in recent years, and I wonder if that is down to the higher gearing I've fitted meaning the pump is now turning more slowly for any given gear/road speed.

I'd been toying with the idea of an electric water pump to help, but it's extra complexity, space and load on the alternator, and if I just had it switching in when needed it'd be a restriction on flow the rest of the time. The only place I could find which did a high flow water pump for the Rover V8 was in the States, and it was always out of stock when I checked over the last 18 months. Until a couple of weeks ago, so I promptly bought it! Looks nicely made, and compared with the pump I fitted last year should flow more coolant.

Whilst I don't think the radiator is clogged after only 8 years use, I was idly browsing the 'net and wondering just how much a replacement would cost these days, and whether they are even available off the shelf nowadays. Most places were either showing no stock, or close to £300 for an all-aluminium replacement. But when I found one for under £40, it was difficult not to buy it  And seeing as the radiator has to come out to change the pump (annoyingly - I mean, who designs things like that?!) I may as well change that too.

The other item I'll be changing is the thermostat for a lower temperature one. I know this won't make the cooling system more effective - it'll just be fully open sooner, but it will reduce underbonnet temperatures. *If* the cooling system is capable of dealing with the heat! I've gone for a 74°C version rather than the current 82°C; if it makes the engine run too cool then I'll just swap back again.

[Asimo]

But if the coolant is not as hot you will need a bigger radiator / more airflow to get rid of the same quantity of heat!

[mat_the_cat]

2 hours ago, Asimo said:

But if the coolant is not as hot you will need a bigger radiator / more airflow to get rid of the same quantity of heat!

 

7 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

 *If* the cooling system is capable of dealing with the heat!

That's true, like I said I'm making the assumption that the radiator size and airflow aren't the current limiting factors. and that by increasing the flow, I'll be making effective use of the radiator I have. Worst case scenario, the temperature will rise above the fully open 'stat temperature, to a point at which it has a high enough temperature difference that it can shed the heat. At which point I'd know that I need a more efficient radiator, or more airflow.

[cobblers]

What are you using to measure the coolant temps? I've been spooked by bad measurements many times, but in reality never really had something that genuinely got as hot as I was worried that it was.

I wouldn't have thought that the engine on idle would be creating enough heat to need a lot of coolant flow really. When you're pressing on the heat load is comfortably 20-30x what it would be on idle, and even with the increased RPM you're unlikely to be flowing 20x more water to take that heat away, so if it can withstand a thrashing without locally boiling up around the cylinders etc, then it should easily handle the far far lower load when idling.

I suppose the real test is to just let it sit and idle on a hot day for a couple of hours and go round with an IR thermometer and see what's really going on.

 

 

 

[mat_the_cat]

It's mainly the dashboard gauge, but cross referenced with a decent Fluke IR gun.  Biggest variable with that is knowing the emissivity of the various surfaces I'm pointing it at to get a truly accurate figure, but I'm getting around 120°C when I'm in the 'worry zone', which is backed up roughly by the measured resistance of the sender at around 27 ohms.

I think the same as you that idling shouldn't present much of a thermal load, but that and just trickling along are what cause the gauge to rise the most! Could it be that it's barely circulating, so the gauge is measuring almost stagnant water in the inlet manifold waterway? Seems doubtful, as the radiator does get warm if you leave it to idle from cold.
Or maybe it's the heat which has been previously generated from (relatively) high speed/high rpm driving which is now unable to be dissipated through the rad after dropping to idle. That seems more likely. Meaning that eventually, if I left it idling for long enough it would cool down again.

With the fan switch  the 1st stage (single fan) comes on at 93°C and goes off when it drops to 88; second stage (fans 2 and 3) comes in at 97°C and drops out at 92°C. Temperature at the radiator must therefore be dropping below 92°C at idle (as fans 2 & 3 cut out) but not below 88°C until I start driving again, as the 1st stage fan seems to remain running at idle.
I should really test it idling from a cold start, to see how the behavior differs... 

1 hour ago, cobblers said:

I suppose the real test is to just let it sit and idle on a hot day for a couple of hours

Maybe not at current fuel prices!

[Crackers]

20 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Maybe not at current fuel prices!

You'd get a new record in the Lowest MPG thread - 0!

[mat_the_cat]

Today I had a package arrive from Dubai - impressively quick delivery from the other side of the world, and not hugely expensive.

As well as the washer pump I needed, I had a browse around for other part numbers I might require....

On 12/17/2021 at 3:13 PM, anonymous user said:

Would have expected a screwdriver in there

 

On 12/17/2021 at 9:47 PM, mat_the_cat said:

You're probably right, but I think the chances of finding one now are slim to none!

Hmmm...

Result!

Still used on modern Hyundai & Kia models. I know it's daft when any old screwdriver would do the job, and probably better quality! But only 4 quid so why not?

Also in the package was the pump...

...as well as a grommet, and the bonnet support rubbers.

Grommet was fiddly to fit into the tank, and kept popping inside.

You can see the staining from the previous leak.

New pump fitted and all working

I did run it to hot from a cold start, and it didn't seem to go above normal, so I wonder whether the high gauge readings are simply a hangover from the previous driving. All the gauge is measuring is the temperature of the water leaving the engine, which if the pump isn't flowing well at idle will be sitting in the block for longer. Or am I simply justifying my purchase of a high flow pump?

[Talbot]

to prove the cooling issues, you would do well to measure the temperature of both the top hose and the bottom hose at the same time.

If the temperature differential is more than about 10c, then you have a flow issue.  If it's less than that, the radiator is undersize (which is unlikely)

It's quite possible that the return water is 25c or more cooler than the top hose, so at that point you've proven that the flow is poor.

[mat_the_cat]

28 minutes ago, Talbot said:

to prove the cooling issues, you would do well to measure the temperature of both the top hose and the bottom hose at the same time.

That's been my plan for oooh, the last year or so!And I really have no excuse now, as the new business we're running has some quite handy kit

Overkill for this, but it would be useful to quantify any changes.

[Talbot]

2 minutes ago, mat_the_cat said:

Overkill

measuring to 3 decimal places of celsius.  D'ya think!

Even the calibration equipment I used to use at a test house 20+ years ago, which was calibrated back to national standards at Teddington was only accurate to +/- 0.2c.

[mat_the_cat]

3 minutes ago, Talbot said:

measuring to 3 decimal places of celsius.  D'ya think!

4 

But given that I'm going to be sticking in a couple of cheap type Ks into it, I'll be lucky to get 0.5°C accuracy (which with my calibration head on seems huge!) I have to mentally recalibrate my brain to accept 'good enough' for the task in hand...

[mat_the_cat]

Let the measurements commence!

And the results were most strange. I double checked my arrangement of thermocouples, and am certain I've got top and bottom correct. But this is what I get (note, I took the thermostat out a short while ago, just to see if that had any effect. None, apart from a slower warm-up).

So the radiator *outlet* is actually hotter most of the time, apart from at idle (the two peaks near the beginning, and the one at the end). The smaller peak at around 2000 seconds is where I drove a bit more briskly, and didn't really notice anything on the gauge - to be expected, as that is taking its reading from the engine outlet, i.e. the top hose which doesn't rise as much as the bottom does.

From this to me it suggests that the coolant is actually flowing the opposite way round, i.e. into the bottom of the radiator, cooled a bit (in normal running), then back into the top of the engine! A quick bit of Googling, it it dawned on me (or so I thought at this stage...)

My belt layout is as the Series 3 diagram on the right, spinning the pump clockwise, but I think what I've done is use a pump as fitted to a Discovery serpentine belt model, which drives the pump from the back of the belt - hence designed to be spun anticlockwise. So it looked like I'd be experiencing reduced pump efficiency. When the engine is spinning fast, it just about manages to pump some coolant in the reverse direction through the rad. At idle, there's nothing, and it even looks as though the thermo-siphon effect is dominating slightly, as the top hose gets slightly hotter and the temperature rises swiftly.

 Then I had a look at the picture I'd taken of the currently fitted pump.

Remember this is spinning clockwise as viewed from the front of the engine, hence ACW from the impeller side. And opposite to its design rotation - or is it?! To the best of my knowledge, those impeller vanes are correct for spinning ACW as viewed, drawing coolant through the impeller from the hose stub at the top of the photo, flinging it centrifugally outwards and into the block. In which case why does mine appear to be working in reverse?

Think I'll sleep on it, and maybe try pinning the pump with a drill in both directions, with the hose disconnected so I can see what's happening.

Lastly, this was probably a bad time to see this comparison table...

[Bren]

11 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Let the measurements commence!

And the results were most strange. I double checked my arrangement of thermocouples, and am certain I've got top and bottom correct. But this is what I get (note, I took the thermostat out a short while ago, just to see if that had any effect. None, apart from a slower warm-up).

So the radiator *outlet* is actually hotter most of the time, apart from at idle (the two peaks near the beginning, and the one at the end). The smaller peak at around 2000 seconds is where I drove a bit more briskly, and didn't really notice anything on the gauge - to be expected, as that is taking its reading from the engine outlet, i.e. the top hose which doesn't rise as much as the bottom does.

From this to me it suggests that the coolant is actually flowing the opposite way round, i.e. into the bottom of the radiator, cooled a bit (in normal running), then back into the top of the engine! A quick bit of Googling, it it dawned on me (or so I thought at this stage...)

My belt layout is as the Series 3 diagram on the right, spinning the pump clockwise, but I think what I've done is use a pump as fitted to a Discovery serpentine belt model, which drives the pump from the back of the belt - hence designed to be spun anticlockwise. So it looked like I'd be experiencing reduced pump efficiency. When the engine is spinning fast, it just about manages to pump some coolant in the reverse direction through the rad. At idle, there's nothing, and it even looks as though the thermo-siphon effect is dominating slightly, as the top hose gets slightly hotter and the temperature rises swiftly.

 Then I had a look at the picture I'd taken of the currently fitted pump.

Remember this is spinning clockwise as viewed from the front of the engine, hence ACW from the impeller side. And opposite to its design rotation - or is it?! To the best of my knowledge, those impeller vanes are correct for spinning ACW as viewed, drawing coolant through the impeller from the hose stub at the top of the photo, flinging it centrifugally outwards and into the block. In which case why does mine appear to be working in reverse?

Think I'll sleep on it, and maybe try pinning the pump with a drill in both directions, with the hose disconnected so I can see what's happening.

Lastly, this was probably a bad time to see this comparison table...

Yep. The rover V8 is a boat anchor these days - previously you could justify having one as they were cheap secondhand. Not any more.....