Derek Robinson, aka 'Red Robbo', good or bad?

[londonm]

Anybody got any funny stories about him, and what he did to the British Motor Car industry? Just reading the post about the Hillman Imp, and the 31 stoppages in 1964 alone at the plant in Scotland. It's a wonder any cars got built here at all post WW2 with the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude of shop stewards. Don't get me wrong, I believe Unions are necessary, but they didn't half wreck things like the car industry here. And let's be honest, in 1979 the choice between a Golf and an Allegro would have been a no brainier with build quality the way it was. Discuss.

[Cavcraft]

[Wilko220]

For the full lowdown on both sides of this argument, perhaps I can just refer you to pretty much every post made on AS in the three days following the death of Margaret Thatcher...

[Junkman]

Read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Leyland-Chronicle-Crash-1968-1978/dp/147756067X

[Pete-M]

No. I'm not going for it. 

[rml2345]

This is always an interesting debate. Unfortunately if unions are to blame for the collapse of the motor industry in the UK, then weak and gullible management are to blame for letting them go out of control. Then the government is to blame for forcing factories in places like Linwood onto manufacturers in exchange for needed capital and idiotic mergers.

Overconfidence can be blamed for half baked product, as can a million other reasons.

There's no one reason why it all went wrong.

[brickwall]

Linwood was a case of lets only do half the job. Good plant with excellent port faclilties, but...er..no exports. The principle was fine; most parts made locally, good rail links, port, supply of labour etc

[brickwall]

oh yeah, I forgot to say robbo was a wank stain.

[Guest Breadvan72]

My dad almost did a chinnage with him.  My dad was ex shop floor, and a trade unionist, but had joined the middle management, and almost came to blows with Robbo one day.  Robbo was a big bloke, and not averse to using his fists , but my dad was a fast welterweight who moonlighted as a  curry house bouncer, so I would have bet on him.  

 

My dad still places most of the blame for the BL hoohah on management, not unions, and says very rude and sweary words whenever he hears the name Lord Stokes.  He ended up working on Michael Edwards' team, but by then it was too little, too late, and Thatch wouldn't back off with the Government interference, which was odd, given her ostensible philisophy. 

[oman5]

My dad almost did a chinnage with him.  My dad was ex shop floor, and a trade unionist, but had joined the middle management, and almost came to blows with Robbo one day.  Robbo was a big bloke, and not averse to using his fists , but my dad was a fast welterweight who moonlighted as a  curry house bouncer, so I would have bet on him.  

 

My dad still places most of the blame for the BL hoohah on management, not unions, and says very rude and sweary words whenever he hears the name Lord Stokes.  He ended up working on Michael Edwards' team, but by then it was too little, too late, and Thatch wouldn't back off with the Government interference, which was odd, given her ostensible philisophy. 

That's a unique insight you have with a dad who actually worked there, I'd love to hear any more anecdotes

[Guest Breadvan72]

He is coming to stay this weekend so I will ask him.

[trigger]

Your dad's Terry Mccann and I claim my £5.

 

[Guest Breadvan72]

Yeah, but he can't sing for shit.

[Junkman]

So can't Terry McCann AICMFP.

[John F]

<contentious opinion>

 

IMO, most of BL's B and C segment car designs of the 1970s and 1980s were (and are) gloomy, dismal and deeply unstylish crocks of shit in comparison with the competition. They did slightly better in the D segment with the SD1, but even that was let down by poor attention to detail.

 

So who cares who killed off BL? I'm glad it's gone, and if it had a grave I'd piss on it.

 

</contentious opinion>

 

[dollywobbler]

My theory is that the motor industry was f*cked once the people who built their companies up from nothing - William Morris, William Lyons, Herbert Austin etc - started handing their companies over to others. Leonard Lord ended up running Austin, but he'd fallen out with Morris, so when the two were merged, he spent most of his time shitting all over Morris and its brands. The endless mergers failed to create a Ford rival, because all the separate companies had their own identities and factories. And a right mish-mash of unions. Confused, weak, pointless management allowed a union monster to grow and on top of that, Issigonis was given free rein to create hopeless designs. The Maxi was the final straw and he was finally retired.

 

So as has been said, lots of people were to blame. (and I think Robbo was a twat).

[Cavcraft]

Genuinely 'un-arsed' about which side of the political/union divide people sit on, but isn't this one of those threads that seems to occur every few months on here?

 

BL/Robbo/Labour/Tory/ are shit, it was the fault of BL/Robbo/Labour/Tory, yadda, yadda yadda.

[jbz2079]

As an owner of a few BL products, Mini, Allegro, Marina, Ital, I was appalled a few years back when Top Gear made comparisons between a

Leyland Marina and a Lada Riva under the heading Communist Cars.

 

I never rated Lada's at all, they were just awful to drive, but looking back and removing the rose tinted specs, so was the Marina.

I reckon young people should spen a week sampling the wayward handling of the Marina compared to the Blinged up FWD shopping trolleys

that the start with now.

 

Most of the small cars of 1 liter will top the ton and handle safely also manage good MPG at the same time.

Whereas the Marina was just waiting for a bit of youthful enthusiasm to wander sheep like into the nearest ditch.

 

Wheelspins in the local carpark? Not in a Marina, the axeltramp would usually break the rear spring on the first attempt, failing that the gearbox

would explode!

 

Driving a Marina smoothly was an art, I never drove one that didn't have clutch judder, couple that with a driveline like a rubber band a smooth

take off was really an art.

 

As you climbed the range the engines got a bit more power but the handling was still dodgy.

 

They lived on a constant diet of spare parts, like fuel senders, door locks, gearboxes and clutches, right up till the terminal tin worm finnished them off.

I learned to mig weld on BL stuff, practice makes perfect!

[Junkman]

I never rated Lada's at all, they were just awful to drive, but looking back and removing the rose tinted specs, so was the Marina.

 

Disagree. Totally. The Marina, especially in its 1.8 TC form, is beautifully to drive. Better than a BMW 1802. I am NOT kidding.

The Lada is just smack awful in every respect, I give you that. But it looks nicer than the Marina and I think this is where all the problem is.

[Justin Case]

Is it true that although Red Robbo was always portrayed as a bogeyman, the management weren't too upset by some strikes as it stopped stocks of unsold cars building up? It was probably bad mangement at a strategic level that finished things off. Why produce both the Allegro and the Marina at the same time, why produce two V8s at the same time, why get rid of the Healey and Cooper names to save a few miserable pounds on royalties, why not develop the MGB instead of leaving it to rot on the vine? The first Datsuns might have been reliable, but they had nearly all rotted away after five years so the Japanese cars weren't perfect. Also the Golf didn't come out to 1974 and other than reliability the Beetle had nothing to recommend it, so we can't blame imports alone. They were pushing at an open door.

 

Afterthought - Rootes products weren't too bad at the time, I wonder why they didn't outsell BMC/BL?

[Rocket88]

As previously stated by the esteemed Mr Wobbler, that "genius" Issigonis has a lot to answer for. He was obsessed with packaging, pretty much to the detriment of every other design criteria. In the Mini and 1100/1300 that was just about acceptable, But the 1800 and Maxi were a triumph of interior space over just about everything else. On all of them the driving position was wilfully uncomfortable, [issigonis hated drivers to be comfortable, as he reckoned it made them more relaxed, and therefore prone to lapses in concentration. He hated car radios for the same reason]

The man was an obsessive, and shouldn't have been let anywhere near a drawing board.

[Wilko220]

I always thought the best thing about the Marina was its looks (pre-facelift obv). I really don't get why some find them so objectionable over and above other tat of the same era.

[brickwall]

Lord Stokes was first and foremost a salesman (a good one at that). He believed that the only solution was to sell more, more, more. it's abit like the salesman in your dealership. He had little understanding of engineering and the processes of trying to meld design with engineering. Quality issues were ignored on the idea that thwe should sell on the good points, and that's enough.

 

They got found out. The costs of fixing the cars and living up to extra rust warranties was ridiculous, not to mention replacing for free the square wheel on the Allegro. The sales numbers were very good and their advertisng quite brilliant, but like I said, they got found out.

[Bren]

My father worked at Ford's halewood plant from 1969 - 74.

 

Although industrial relations were better than BL and rootes, strikes were a regular occurrance.

 

If Liverpool were playing in midweek, there would be a strike.

 

One one occasion a group had arranged a coach trip which took place during works time. No problem - just have a walk out. They even brought their best suits to work and had the coach pick them up outside.

 

When my father left and started a new job, he told me on the interview for his new post he was asked "Why do you want to join us.?" Father replied "Because they are always on strike." His candour probably got him the job.

 

All gone full circle now, look at the big stink over unite, even Labour are'nt trusted to look after the interests of the working man, New Labour pretended they did, while whispering sweet nothings into the ears of speculators and venture capitalists.

[chaseracer]

Donald Stokes was a "truck & bus man" who achieved great success in that specialist area. The volume car industry was a completely different game; taking over Standard-Triumph, Jaguar and Alvis didn't make him a "car man", as later events with BL proved.

 

Stories about walkouts & football matches & tea-breaks are all very amusing, but never should it be forgotten that the main reasons for industrial unrest were unfair wage rates, Dickensian working conditions and arrogant dismissive management.

 

When withdrawal of labour is the only weapon left, that is what will be used.

[RedSparrow]

I always thought the best thing about the Marina was its looks (pre-facelift obv). I really don't get why some find them so objectionable over and above other tat of the same era.

 

Yeah I've always thought they were quite smart looking. Never driven one though...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 

 

Disagree. Totally. The Marina, especially in its 1.8 TC form, is beautifully to drive. Better than a BMW 1802. I am NOT kidding.

 

Depends on whether you formed this unusual opinion before or after you passed a driving test. The Marina was a pig to drive fast - not bad driven sedately but just dreadful if you tried to press on. The 1802 (not sold in the UK btw....) was pretty good by the standards of the day.

 

Robbo was an idiot along with Scargill and the rest of the lefty 'up the workers' wankers.

 

BMC was always doomed to failure from the moment Austin and Morris merged. They were two different companies - Austin did cheap and cheerful, Nuffield stuff (Minor, Magnette, Pathfinder etc) was always engineered to a higher standard and there was more than enough room for both to exist. Had they not merged there is a chance the Mini would never have been made but I'm sure the compenies would have lasted longer.

Stokes was okay really, but he was given a decidedly poisoned chalice - it was just too late to reverse the damage. Really, BMC could have been saved by Joe Edwards who knew exactly what was wrong with BMC and how to correct it.

 

Issigonis was a clever bloke, but so was Gerald Palmer.

[Junkman]

Put down the crack pipe.

 

If you have an opinion, voice it. But don't get personal.

[Junkman]

Depends on whether you formed this unusual opinion before or after you passed a driving test. The Marina was a pig to drive fast - not bad driven sedately but just dreadful if you tried to press on. The 1802 (not sold in the UK btw....) was pretty good by the standards of the day.

 

I formed this opinion after having owned an 1802 for a year and then driving a friend's Marina 1.8 TC.

Again, I totally disagree that the Marina was a pig to drive fast. The opposite is true. It's great fun to thrash it around.

The BMW was tricky and comparatively unpredictable, and its Achilles Heel was always the overly complicated and fragile rear axle.

Also, the Bimma had those pre-war-style standing pedals, like the Beetle. They were shit.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I formed this opinion after having owned an 1802 for a year and then driving a friend's Marina 1.8 TC.

Again, I totally disagree that the Marina was a pig to drive fast. The opposite is true. It's great fun to thrash it around.

Wow!

 

Love the bit about the overly complicated rear axle. Semi trailing arms baffle me too. It scares me to even think about them.