Daft question time - what cars don't have anti-roll bars

[forddeliveryboy]

Getting more fed up with silly low profile rubber and over-strong anti-roll bars. Fondly remember driving Saab 99s and 900s which did without, unless it was the 16 valve turbocharged models. And they managed perfectly fine, no nasty heeling over and the like. Too many moderns don't grip well at speed on less-than-perfect roads as the 'sway bar' constantly jiggles the suspension about, it's as if they're designed for the school-run-Mum who is always on a bit of smooth urban ring road or going round a roundabout.

 

I'm always overtaking drivers who are taking things so gingerly when its wet and the road is bumpy and curving - always in something ancient on skinny tyres and with old-fashioned suspension which tries to keep the body from moving up and down with the road. It's good to have both front wheels gripping through corners, not just one. Think quite a lot of 70s and 80s British stuff did without.

[dollywobbler]

Citroen 2CV has no anti-roll bar, but most people have probably already guessed that.

[jonny69]

Are you sure it's the anti-roll bar you want to do without? It does a pretty good job of negating the need for rock hard front springs in most cars, particularly those with MacPherson struts. A lot of moderns have plenty of grip but don't feel like they handle all that well because of the amount of understeer. It's deliberately dialled in to warn drivers to stay on the safe side of the grip levels, rather than finding out the hard way when they go spinning off backwards through someone's hedge. We'd all love a car with neutral handling or a bit of oversteer but the fact is 99% of the population can't deal with it. Same as they couldn't in the 70's in their Capris and SD1s and ended up smashed backwards over roundabouts.

 

I don't think it's the anti-roll bar at fault. I think you crave a motor with softer suspension and taller tyres and a bit more positive turn-in.

[gallondrunk]

Early povvo spec Corsa Bs didn't have anti roll bars; I never appreciated how capable this made them on rough roads until we sold ours.

 

i imagine part of the problem is the design trend for moderns to have as little roll as possible. Wide, low profile tyres coupled with "sports" suspension and fucking great thick anti roll bars front and rear. It'll bollock around a test track fine but a potholed, badly cambered roundabout completely throws it. There's very little feedback.

 

All this is not helped by the fact that more and more roads seem to be completely knackered.

 

Oh, hydropneumatic Citroens don't have them either!

[Lacquer Peel]

Xantias definitely do have anti-roll bars, and BXs too I think.

[trigger]

BMW 1602's don't have them but 2002's do.

[gallondrunk]

Xantias definitely do have anti-roll bars, and BXs too I think.

 

I take it back!

[Negative Creep]

Base model Citroen AXs didn't

[dollywobbler]

Xantias definitely do have anti-roll bars, and BXs too I think.

 

Yup. Even the DS had them. Incredibly, so did the later Ami and Acadiane Dyane based vans. They still roll like a barge in a swell though.

 

As has been said, modern cars can be shocking on broken up roads because they're too heavy and the suspension is too firm to stop them wallowing around like Citroens. I don't recommend buying a new-shape Citroen C5, but it is worth trying one to see that actually, it IS possible to build a modern car with comfortable suspension that still handles - and I mean the coil sprung ones.

[skattrd]

I think you should look for a car based on the car and how it handles, not whether it has an ARB or not.

ARB's can be removed if you don't like them. I've removed them from cars before, and no kittens were harmed in the process.

[Guest]

The Red Rangey of Rustiness has no anti roll bar, for extra built-in TERROR when chucking it at corners.

[tooSavvy]

My 750L Panda [oldie!] didn't have ARB >> steamed straight on over wet MiniRbts.. ..

 

I fitted ARB from a Lancia Y10 - Bolt off/on swap

 

SORTED......

 

tooSavvy

[coalnotdole]

I must be doing something wrong! I fitted one to the rebel van last month, the rebel saloon had one fitted at christmas time and it had a drastic effect on stability in corners. Significantly less roll during heavy cornering and a much more controlled feeling at speed.

 

In my limited experience on rwd cars they seem to offer a worthwhile improvement.

[M'coli]

Hillman Imps were never fitted with ARBs from the factory.

[Rusty_Rocket]

The Red Rangey of Rustiness has no anti roll bar, for extra built-in TERROR when chucking it at corners.

 

My early Disco' doesn't either.. they're basically the same cars as I'm sure you know. I kinda like its rollyness, I pitch mine into corners quite quickly; it clings on with great gutso In our case, the lack of bars is not down to mingebagitus by LR- it's to allow for superb axle articulation

Are you still on 205/80 tyres? I swapped to 235/70's- it really makes a difference.

[forddeliveryboy]

Are you sure it's the anti-roll bar you want to do without? It does a pretty good job of negating the need for rock hard front springs in most cars, particularly those with MacPherson struts.

 

Umm, yes. Have you ever driven a good car without, at speed on a back road? And I don't suggest removing one from a car which has one - that's pretty dangerous unless you're going to drive like a granny. The difference is quite surprising - you can corner more quickly through bumpy bends, put your foot down in a fwd without losing traction and have a much more relaxed drive at a good speed. Excess heel is poor design with too much roll couple and a track which isn't as wide as it oughta be. Unless it's a 2cv or other old Frenchy - they use roll to improve cornering somehow.

 

You've reminded me of another motor-industry cost-cutting exercise, jonny69 - the MacPherson strut. I blame this for crap feel, the need for roll bars and stupid wide tyres with shallow sidewalls. And softish front springs with an arb spells general nastiness, unless travel is limited. Those old Saabs were brilliant, no arb, tidy handling and good comfort.

 

dollywobbler, I didn't know Acadianes came with front bars. Thought it was just the Amis. Think the Super had two, and it still didn't handle right. A good 2cv doesn't actually heel as much as you'd think, if it's not one from the last horrible few years of production. Most late ones heel ridiculously for several reasons - later suspension arms are often with a lot of positive camber and they can't generate sufficient grip on the front wheels since the arms are also made out of the same shite steel as the rest of the thing and bend when you turn in, the back is often trying to steer one way or the other since later rear arms came out of the factory bent, a non-standard chassis is fitted which has quite different characteristics from the original 2cv Citroen one and often springs and dampers are well past their best. New OE ones seem to last about 3 years nowadays, before going soggy - they're crap. Often the problem with classic cars is that aftermarket parts are designed to the same dimensions but use lousy materials.

 

All hydraulic Citroens have had anti-roll bars - without them there's be nothing to attach the height correctors to. Seem to remember old LJKS saying early DSs didn't, think he may have been wrong for once. But 'real' Citroens (instead of the bastardised Pug variety) had fairly weak ones, to allow the suspension to do its job properly. CX ones were preloaded and ran in metal bearings, rather than squidgy rubber. Aye, rubber everywhere - there's another bug bear of cheap modern shite.

[ayrshirelad]

Marinas didnt have rear anti roll bars for a few years infact they were well into their production run before anti roll bars were fitted. However my A reg Ital has got one. The problem i had one year for its Mot was that one of the rubber bushes was a tad past its best, and there was no way i could sorce a replacement within the ten day limit. So i removed said roll bar. If it aint there he cant retest it. I bit naughty but car passed it test and i used it for a week or so minus roll bar. The differerence none. Now before everyone jumps in and says Marinas and Itals have crap handling anyway, they dont actually. Very early 1800s might have had slightly dodgy on the limits but do not believe the usual garbagge written about the so called dangerous suspension on them. It does the job. On said Ital she actually has the telescopics on the front so said car can corner. My point being older cars i e 25 plus might not need an anti roll bar as they were not designed to have one. So the you wont feel the difference. However modern cars most definalty do need them as without them it is like driving a jelly! Back wheels want to steer and car literally rolls every where!. Under normal driving when you are in a car with out a rear anti roll bar or front bar i dont think you would really notice unlless you were on your favourit back road and were leathering it. If you did that then you would surley know your cars limits anyway!

[garethj]

I agree with Johnny69.

 

Front anti roll bars make the front end grip less, this is what gives you stability at speed (a nice thing, if you've tried the opposite). The reason an old Saab didn't have one is they were already nose-heavy.

 

I haven't found a problem with the handling of most older cars; the taller tyres and usually no power steering let you feel how much grip the front end has, and you can zip through corners with confidence. The ultimate cornering speed is probably lower than a new car, but it's all about how much you can feel.

 

As said, don't take an anti roll bar off! If you really really want a car without, something light and well balanced won't have one, early Lotus, Mini Marcos perhaps.

[Guest]

The Red Rangey of Rustiness has no anti roll bar, for extra built-in TERROR when chucking it at corners.

 

My early Disco' doesn't either.. they're basically the same cars as I'm sure you know. I kinda like its rollyness, I pitch mine into corners quite quickly; it clings on with great gutso In our case, the lack of bars is not down to mingebagitus by LR- it's to allow for superb axle articulation

Are you still on 205/80 tyres? I swapped to 235/70's- it really makes a difference.

 

I might look into that, but am presently going through a Mr Skintwad phase.

[Barry Cade]

X1/9's have no anti roll bars, and when set up properly they handle and grip brilliant on wee 165/70/13's.

[hennabm]

Like all lesser E30s, my 1990 E30 320 didn't come with ARB to the rear - only the 323, 325 and 318is had them as std IIRC.

 

Since then I've fitted an Eibach ARB kit front and rear of the 320 and what a difference it has made to the cornering abilities.

[gallondrunk]

To make up for my ignorant disinformation campaign regarding ARB on Citroens, have a scan of an LJKS editorial about them.

 

[forddeliveryboy]

Oo-err missus, that's a good read! Twenty-odd years ago, I must be ancient!

 

Just trying to let my eye muscles recover now - top post, gallondrunk.

 

I see that as well as BMW, Range Rover, Mercedes etc trying to do away with the steel arb, Toyota have ditched it on its top models and McLaren looks to be using a top-version of the hydraulic tech which alters the anti-roll strength according to conditions. Wouldn't mind that on my own machines! It all seems to confirm my suspicions - that a steel bar linking one side to the other which relies on its distortion to try to keep the two sides of the suspension at similar extensions is a nasty bit of kit, but one which is difficult to do without. I wonder how Saabs and the X1/9 did so well without? Never remember the 99/900 rolling badly.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-mclaren-mp4-12c-suspension-walkaround.html

[Junkman]

The best car in terms of ride and handling I ever drove is my Rover P6 V8, which only has an anti roll bar up front, but I believe this is not the point.

 

I had 195/70s on it for a while and they ruined everything. It's now back on the standard 80 profile tyres and this made all the difference in the world.

The same is my experience with many cars I had that were changed to non standard (i.e. low profile) tyres. Once the standard wheels and tyres were installed, everything improved. I think the tyre/wheel combination makes a much bigger difference than tinkering around with chassis components.

[fordnut]

Base model MK3 Fiestas don't have ARBs - XR/RS/Si/Zetec models do.

[Guest]

Rover Metros never had any anti-roll bars; the interconnected Hydragas stopped* the roll. 1.3 Maestros didn't have any roll bars either.

[brickwall]

I took the bars of me RR to see what everyone was talking about. F'king hell!!!

[Station]

My Saab has a 28mm one on the front and TWO on the back. Also my Astra has a 24mm on front and two on the back. Why on beam axle on rear?