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Tonka

Petrol V Diesel

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I don't mind the noise, or the power band odddities of a modern turbodiesel. I own one - a 1.6 TDCI Focus.

It was bought with purely economy in mind, around town it'll chuck back low 50s and on a run, I've seen 59mpg with the cruise on 70 and no traffic around.

 

However, I do intend to move it on before bits of it start to fall off - I can cope with a DPF regen, they're not cheap but fairly straightforward. In 60k when the flywheel gets upset, and the turbo gives in because they crank the boost up these days, I hope for it not to be mine.

 

I'm aware that a new small-capacity, turbo'ed petrol engine is lots less complicated and offers similar performance and economy. At the time of buying my diesel there were none in budget, they're a fairly new trend (I was going to say Invention, but someone will remind me about K-cars with their 8cc quad-turbo engines from the 1990s) but next time I'll not have diesels so high up on the list. I like the idea of the 1 litre Ecoboost engines, and the 1.4 VW motors with fairly good power output.

 

As said, the sweet spot with TDs was the pre-PD VAG engine. Fairly rudimentary, can junk a few of the nods to emissions (a screw in the EGR activator pipe and suchlike), and decent power without being all electroniccy and clever.

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diesel for those of us racking up 30,000-40,000 miles a year. The only petrol car I have ever had that got to the heady heights of 200k miles was a Merc 230TE but lots of dizzlers I have had have reached that mileage.

 

The worst diesel I ever drove was a perkins powered Land Rover Dormobile - the steering was even heavier and it topped out at about 50! Reckoned it needed only one gear though! ;-)

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Diesels are 'orrible. The stuff stinks, they're over complex and in the extra cost of it barely makes it worth while when comparing it to a petrol.

The reason that most newer diesel car drivers are lumbered with them is because of the company car C02 benefit. When I got in that little Puma it's a total hoot to drive in comparison to the super duper diesel I drive as my daily (My SD1 doesn't count as it rev's like a diesel anyway) as it actually revs and doesn't run out of puff just as you get going.

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I must admit I'm surprised with the amount of support for the good old Petrol engine, I half expected to be shot down in flames seeing as there is so much love for the PSA group's products on here but many seem to share my opinion of today's diesels being smelly things that are now overcomplicated and less reliable than their smelly, slow, reliable older cousins,

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Diesel used to be for high-milers - I'm on 30k a year and it made sense.

Looking at it more closely though, this particular diesel has a 12500 mile service interval and every alternate one is a "major". Minor service is £160, major closer to £400.

At 75k, and every 75k after or thereabouts, the mystery regen fluid needs to be replaced for around £200.

At 125k when the DMF shits itself, you've got a massive bill. I've heard some four-figure stories.

When the DPF wants sorting which is anywhere from 90k upwards, that's £800 supposedly.

 

What am I saving? Approximately 10mpg, and £200 a year on road tax. Is it worth it? Who knows, ask me when the Ford dealer have had to use A3 paper to get all the zeros on the next bill. 30k at 55mpg average is 2476 litres of fuel, at today's rate that's £3600. 30k at 45mpg which seems reasonable for a new petrol model is just over 3000 litres, at the slightly cheaper fuel cost that's £4250 so £850 a year more. Add on the extra RFL, that's a grand more per year for me to run a petrol - that covers a major service, a minor service, and hope to god the flywheel and DPF hangs in there! If any of the major bills associated with a diesel car crop up, then I'm out of pocket.

 

Yes we service stuff ourselves but for a fair comparison, I'm using dealer-service scenarios. As my car is still under warranty it's more relevant to me also.

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I like petrol as the only dirty stinking thing I want in my car is bass.

 

I don’t need no speed, no

I just need economy, yes thanks

I don’t want no poke, no

You can keep your gasolineine

I’m a diesel junkie, what?

I’m a diesel junkie, tell them again

I’m a diesel junkie, tell them again

I like it sooty

Big dirty stinking derv, dirty stinking derv

Big dirty stinking derv, dirty stinking derv

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To be honest, I prefer the 2286/2495 Petrol Land Rover engine, as a comparison the the 2286/2495 NA Diesel engine. (They shared a lot of parts, block particularly, and latterly crank and camshafts... and other parts like timing gear, sump, oil pump.. made parts storage easier, having commonality... especially for expedition work) The petrol when set up corectly, is a silky smooth, torquey engine, especially from about 1500 rpm. Yes, economy is dreadful, but try driving a land yacht againt the wind. THAT is the Series Land Rover experience. The petrol is a lovely engine, but the economy user deserves a diesel. I use mine for load carrying, rather than off road ability. I know it can do it, but have no need to prove it, or indeed show it. Tax free diesel 4x4 van anyone? NOT for sale!

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There is something like chip fat for petrol engines, too. It's called bio-ethanol, costs between 70 and 80 p a litre depending on where you live on that poliglott Continent 20 miles southeast of the UK, and it might become available here in about 25 years hence, after all petrol and diesel cars have been taxed into oblivion and everyone either cycles or has one of those stupid uber-mobility-scooters with milk float drivetrain.

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I worked out the other day my diesel costs about 7.9 p per mile to run. That's based on 1/3rd diesel, 1/3rd WVO and 1/3rd SVO. I'm wank at maths so it's possibly (probably!) wrong, but it's based on 45mpg, diesel costing £1.42 per litre, WVO costing 0p per litre and SVO costing £1.00 per litre. Thus a total of £3.56 per gallon, divided by 45 (mpg) making 7.9p per mile. If I got my maths right (again, probably not) a petrol car doing 30mpg would cost 20p per mile to run.

Assuming that's correct, that means a saving of £1,210 every 10,000 miles. I do like petrol cars, but at those sort of figures you can see why I prefer my old diesel.

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It all depends on how much you drive.

 

I drove 2995 miles last year, so if your maths are correct, and mine too, I'd have saved 362.40 by driving a Diesel, so 30 quid a month.

Let's make this figure 50 quid a month, since I did it with a Rover 3500 and I can only dream of 30mpg.

I will happily pay those extra 50 quid, since what this does to my life quality is priceless. To counter it, I pay about 42 quid less insurance per month for the Rover compared with the Diesel BX. So in the end, I drive a V8 instead of a 1900 Diesel for 8 quid a month extra. Bringing this back to 10000 miles a year, the whole calculation looks decidedly different. It would cost me something like 125 quid a month extra. Then again, even that would be well worth it.

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Currently my petrol AX is doing 44mpg which is pretty much exactly 13p per mile. I make Cav's mix of Diesel, SVO and WVO 7.9p per mile which although a bigger car seems a lot of effort for the difference.

 

Now if I had any sort of pratical ability I would be tempted by a wood burning car like this Serb chap and his Yugo.

http://freeweb.deltha.hu/zastava.in.hu/wood-gas.htm

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I do harbour thoughts of dropping an XD turbo from an LDV convoy into my Volvo 240. at the moment it does 250 miles to a full tank of pez which is shit.

 

Otherwise I will happily drive either petrol or diesel. Out of what I have owned, probably the best proper diesel was the 2.3 indenor in my sierra sapphire. yes they are very slow but there is practically nothing to go wrong. consistent 45 mpg and generally a damned good engine design.

You can also put me down in the XUD fan club. a brilliant motor especially in turbo form.

 

However, nothing beats having a big f-off petrol V8 under the bonnet. I just can't afford to run one.

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It depends entirely on how many miles you do a year.

There was a discussion/argument on the AS Facebook page the other day with a young lad who was convinced that taking the depreciation hit on a fairly new Renault Megane CC and buying a new or nearly new Diseasel was sound financial sense because his Meg only did about 25mpg.

Fair enough you might think, but he then dropped the clanger that it was a 3rd car and only did 3000 miles a year!

 

He just couldn't be persuaded that he stood to 'save' at most about £300-odd quid a year on fuel, plus maybe £100 or so on tax, at the cost of an initial outlay of some £5k plus whatever depreciation he'd be hit with. :?

Some people just can't see past the MPG figures and look at the total cost of owning a car.

 

 

I do less than 5k miles a year in my big Merc, at about 25mpg.

I'm quite happy with that, because every time I get into it and set off I think, 'what a f***ing wonderful car this is for the pittance I paid for it', and I know from bitter experience the feeling of abject misery I get from clanking a rattler into life on a cold morning and listening to it clattering away at lights, and all the other assorted Diesel 'attributes'.

To me, it just reeks of failure, that I haven't managed to organise my life well enough that I need something with a tractor engine in it to cope with motoring costs. If my circumstances suddenly changed and I needed a car that did 50mpg I'd drive a 1.2 Punto before I'd buy a Dizzler.

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It depends entirely on how many miles you do a year.

There was a discussion/argument on the AS Facebook page the other day with a young lad who was convinced that taking the depreciation hit on a fairly new Renault Megane CC and buying a new or nearly new Diseasel was sound financial sense because his Meg only did about 25mpg.

Fair enough you might think, but he then dropped the clanger that it was a 3rd car and only did 3000 miles a year!

 

He just couldn't be persuaded that he stood to 'save' at most about £300-odd quid a year on fuel, plus maybe £100 or so on tax, at the cost of an initial outlay of some £5k plus whatever depreciation he'd be hit with. :?

 

Some people just can't see past the MPG figures.

Theres something I've wanted to say to you for ages. 

"DINSDALE!!!!!"

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It depends entirely on how many miles you do a year.

There was a discussion/argument on the AS Facebook page the other day with a young lad who was convinced that taking the depreciation hit on a fairly new Renault Megane CC and buying a new or nearly new Diseasel was sound financial sense because his Meg only did about 25mpg.

Fair enough you might think, but he then dropped the clanger that it was a 3rd car and only did 3000 miles a year!

 

He just couldn't be persuaded that he stood to 'save' at most about £300-odd quid a year on fuel, plus maybe £100 or so on tax, at the cost of an initial outlay of some £5k plus whatever depreciation he'd be hit with. :?

Some people just can't see past the MPG figures and look at the total cost of owning a car.

 

 

I do less than 5k miles a year in my big Merc, at about 25mpg.

I'm quite happy with that, because every time I get into it and set off I think, 'what a f***ing wonderful car this is for the pittance I paid for it', and I know from bitter experience the feeling of abject misery I get from clanking a rattler into life on a cold morning and listening to it clattering away at lights, and all the other assorted Diesel 'attributes'.

To me, it just reeks of failure, that I haven't managed to organise my life well enough that I need something with a tractor engine in it to cope with motoring costs. If my circumstances suddenly changed and I needed a car that did 50mpg I'd drive a 1.2 Punto before I'd buy a Dizzler.

 

I can genuinely see what you mean, but the flip side of the coin is I don't need a big/big petrol engined car to make me think I reek of success. If I felt the need to 'organise' anything in my life so I could get a status symbol type car, I'd throw my licence away and walk everywhere.

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Yes, I go with that. the sort of stuff I drive could in no way be considered a status symbol. I just like noise of a big 8 and the solid wall of torque from low down in the rev range. It's unlikely that anyone on this site buys a car to try and impress anyone.

(unless its a Tagora/morris 1800/old volvo etc)

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As I'm only a semi-competent mechanic, I find that I need to pay a mechanic to sort out problems on my diesel cars more often than the petrol ones. A petrol engine seems simpler: just give it fuel, air and a spark - most things I can do myself.

 

The resultant bills seem to cancel out the cost advantage of a diesel engine.

 

On the other hand, a large proportion of our annual mileage is in France, because we do a big trip there a couple of times a year. Because their petrol is dearer than the diesel, the cost advantage of diesel is massively greater, so we do try to take the diesel Mazda to France when I can face the dullness of it.

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From running a garage I can see that modern diesels are trouble waiting to happen. I too had a 2.3d Sierra, many xud's and older diesels and loved them. But for the last couple of years I have had a 2.3 turbo petrol saab. Sure it only does 30mpg local but it's fast (235bhp) safe and comfy. Plus it's totally reliable so far (jinxed it now).

I think the break even for a modern diesel must be over 20k pa.

Still like the sound of a proper diesel tho. Fiat 110-90 tractor with a straight pipe off the turbo is sex.

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I can genuinely see what you mean, but the flip side of the coin is I don't need a big/big petrol engined car to make me think I reek of success. If I felt the need to 'organise' anything in my life so I could get a status symbol type car, I'd throw my licence away and walk everywhere.

 

I wasn't really meaning that in a 'status symbol' sort of way, although reading it back I guess it could be taken as such.

I'm certainly not one of those shallow twats who's obsessed by 'status'. If I was I'd be spunking £299 a month on a black A3TDi. I just think that done sensibly, IE in an 'Autoshite' way, one can feel a warm glow of smugness 'beating the system' by running a big luxobarge for pennies. I like having a nice car, and in my experience nice cars cost no more than shit ones.

 

I hate having a car that makes me miserable, and within reason I'm prepared to pay a bit extra to avoid that daily feeling of despair.

My entire motoring budget for the last year, including fuel was about £2k. Running a 50mpg Dizzler might have brought that down to £1500, and I'd have hated every minute of it, so to me the extra £8 a week is well worth it. :)

 

& I really hate Diesels.....

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I think the break even for a modern diesel must be over 20k pa.

 

It's probably a bit less than that, but it's not always clear; a diesel big car (something like an Audi A6) will probably do 50% better than a petrol version, whereas a diesel supermini would perhaps only do 25% better than a petrol version.

 

My 205 diesel was ace in terms of simplicity and mpg, the VW 1.9 Tdi seems robust too and even more economical with almost twice the power.  Newer diesels seem risky for the repair bills.  Perhaps the chances of a failure aren't any higher, but the stakes are a grand instead of £250

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My only long term experience of diesel was with a recentish Corsa learning to drive. It was great for pootling around town but once the road opened up it was totally hopeless and quite frustrating. The petrol Toyota was much more fun so in a small car it has to be pez for me. Yet to try an XUD powered 205 though.

I understand the appeal of a big diesel but I don't drive enough (6-8k a year) to justify the additional cost and/or increased risk of financial ruin if it goes phut. They also hold their values quite well and big daft petrol barges don't. From a man maths point of view this makes them chesper and therefore more appealing.

In short, I'm not very rational at buying cars and tend to worry about running costs when I've got no spare cash for chips.

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Due to the amount of miles I do, I should get one, but I've never owned a diesel - I've never driven one I've really liked and lack something a petrol has. I don't mind paying extra on fuel for more performance, petrols always seem to have something diesels don't. I'd have an AX/Metro/etc diesel.

 

EDIT: I had a Corsa diesel van which was ace.

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Not sure the big miles angle justifies a diesel,I've added just over 120,000 miles in my diesel in the last 16 months . In that time I've done half a dozen oil changes ( at £80 a pop- 9 litres of low ash fully synth) and bypassed a swirl motor with a 10p resistor. Tyres brakes etc no different to a petrol. It started off in my ownership with 90k

The thing is it only does ,according to the on board trip thing 33 mpg ,it's coming up for 4 years old and I'm thinking of changing it, but with petrol at 10 p a litre cheaper and 530i's and A6 3.2 V6 Quattro's around for 25% less than a derv and still capable of 30 odd mpg is it time I went back to petrol- wouldn't consider a Lexus hybrid thing because they've got no boot.

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I live in a little street of terraced houses, where we all have to park on-street, under the front bedroom windows.  Often of someone else's house.  Call me excessively considerate, but I can hear my diesel-owning neighbours going out, so, as I go out before 0600 six days a week, I wouldn't want to be waking them up with diesel rattle at that kind of hour.

Of course that isn't the only reason I won't own a diesel.  I've had one, and didn't care for the (absence of) power; I also drive them for my living, so "diesel" = "work" in my head.  I now have three cars, all with petrol engines; two having come from this very forum at what I consider bargainous prices.  One of those is a very rewarding luxobarge, with power whenever I want it.  What I gave for it would fuel a diesel Audi for a couple of weeks, maybe a month.  And it can't really depreciate from where it is now.  I reckon I've won with my big cheap petrol-gulping brick.  That feeling alone is worth more than the Audi owner will lose in the first three years.

 

Footnote: three cars is too many in this little street, so if anyone feels they can give a good home to a lovely low-mileage Nissan Cherry, see me... ;)

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