Motorcycling - Current Chinese Shite v. Older Japanese Shite

[UltraWomble]

That all still goes on - oversize cylinder head kits are common place amongst certain bike types - The Honda Grom can be turned into a 180, numerous faux Vespa-alike bikes and the faux Lambretta Scomadis have upgrade kits that never get declared.

I assume that most claims underwriters will be able to tell if the cylinder head isnt stock, but then how many actually get inspected that closely?

[strangeangel]

6 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Ahh, fair enough then. I had noticed years back it seemed you could buy a number of Chinese mopeds and (I assume) call them whatever name you wanted and have stickers made to suit. The Baotian (for example) used that shitty QT50 engine code as found in the Madness 50 and shit loads of shit other things, iirc. 

 

You still get that - factories turning out copies of copies, like the Jonway YY250 I brifefly had. A modern looking scooter:

 

 

with a stone-age (Helix copy) engine. The engine parts and casings were pure monkey metal, and - unlike even Jialing's version - this pile of elephant wank didn't even bear identifying marks; no engine number or anything. Your guess is as good as mine as to who built them. I bought the immaculate Jonway for £50 at three years old with HGF. Even after I'd replaced the head gasket and camshaft it never ran properly - the wiring connectors fell apart if you even looked at them - ably proving the notion that even if you're offered a Chinese bike for free or nearly free it probably isn't worth the hassle.

 

The other thing to remember about clones is that they helpfully* upgrade* parts without actually telling anyone. So, when the stator went on my mate's JL-250, he ordered another one, but the holes were in the wrong place. He ordered a second one, but the wires were too short on that. We got a Honda one from my junk box, but that had one less hole and couldn't be made to fit! He bodged the second one, but it never worked properly after that. The Riders thing above has a bigger front brake drum than a proper Super Cub, which on the face of it is a good idea. Except that when the sole importers washed their hands of them about 5 years ago, they also stopped importing parts, so if one of them actually runs long enough to wear out the front brake shoes it could be a problem. And so it goes.

 

[gtd2000]

10 hours ago, strangeangel said:

 

As you keep repeating this claim, I will keep repeating that one buyer over there had a bike delivered in a crate that had fuel in the tank and had clearly suffered a wiring fire prior to delivery. And the thing about doing up an old Cub (and by that I don't mean turning it into a beardy wanker chopper) you'll have something worth keeping, or at the very least a bike you can sell on for a decent amount of coin. Chinese stuff is just there to be run into the ground, usually by the date of its first MOT.

 

EDIT: in order to place my massive cynicism regarding Chinese bikes in some sort of context, here's a brief summary of my experiences of them, copied from another thread where they were being discussed:

 

 

Nothing wrong with being cynical, from my point of view.

On the other hand, back in the day, bikes like the Honda Cub were viewed in a similar vein to the current Chinese machines, i.e. cheapish disposable transport.

Most of the Cubs that myself and pals rode around on back in the late 70's early 80's were usually not more than 5 or 6 years old and all pretty much rotted out and used off-road.

It's only takes a short review of the Chinese tiddler pages on Facebook to see that many of the bikes succumb to inept ownership with a variety of "mods" that were also applied during my youth, with pretty much the same result of fucking the bike up.

It does indeed sound like you've had a fairly negative experience with a far larger sample of Chinese bikes.  I've only owned two and wouldn't say no to owning another, if the machine had generally positive reviews

 

[gtd2000]

8 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Ahh, fair enough then. I had noticed years back it seemed you could buy a number of Chinese mopeds and (I assume) call them whatever name you wanted and have stickers made to suit. The Baotian (for example) used that shitty QT50 engine code as found in the Madness 50 and shit loads of shit other things, iirc. 

It was also funny how although they might have some vaguely Western name, the actual log book would say they're a Quimtrim Xylophone Ping Pong.

Are you still running that Scomadi scooter?

[gtd2000]

2 hours ago, strangeangel said:

 

The Riders thing above has a bigger front brake drum than a proper Super Cub, which on the face of it is a good idea. Except that when the sole importers washed their hands of them about 5 years ago, they also stopped importing parts, so if one of them actually runs long enough to wear out the front brake shoes it could be a problem. And so it goes.

 

The only plus side here is that the Riders front brake is so shite, it'll likely never wear out anyway. ?

[Cavcraft]

25 minutes ago, gtd2000 said:

Are you still running that Scomadi scooter?

Certainly am, and it's Chinese!

[gtd2000]

1 minute ago, Cavcraft said:

Certainly am, and it's Chinese!

How's it running, any issues or niggles?

[strangeangel]

@UltraWomble that Facebook thread you posted is comedy gold...

 

 

Gwaaaaaan Neil Powell - 228.5 trouble free miles a year!

 

When I get home I might have to add an endurance feat of my own  

 

[UltraWomble]

Scomadi do seem to have their shit together when it comes to supply and build quality - I keep an eye on the local retailer / importer ScooterModa in Preston and there seems to be little but praise for them delivering well nailed together scooters and when there is an issue they do seem to get the problems sorted fairly quickly and with little arseache.

Benelli seem to be doing reasonably well with their Chinese TNT125, though not without issues ( usually electrical / ECU related) the dealers seem to be able to honour their warranty agreements and get the spare bits quickly.

Like any bike/ car - neglect it or dick about with it and invariably it will suffer and become unreliable whether its Chinese or Japanese. Though Chinese stuff seems to rust faster ( even the early Yam YBR125's nailed together in China suffered with rust).

I keep umming between a second hand Scomadi and a TNT

 

[Cavcraft]

5 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

How's it running, any issues or niggles?

 

Not long after I got it the speedo packed up (went wonky) which is a common thing, and was replaced under warranty. Then it'd randomly cut out at traffic lights, the ECU was re-flashed under warranty (same time as speedo) and  the horn packed up (frayed wire that was too short anyhow)  Later on had it serviced at a place that turned out to be fucking awful (wish I'd read their reviews first) but afterwards it definitely went better, God knows why.

 

It's fast (84-ish mph and still pulling), really nice to ride, more comfortable than a Vespa,  the brakes are great and (aside from white lines, especially in the wet) it corners quite well. Never measured economy, genuinely haven't a clue, I just always make sure the tank is full as possible. Keep a pop bottle full of juice in the tool box 'just in case' though. As a commuter it's probably not as ideal for weaving in and out of traffic as it's slightly bulky and a smidge heavier than perhaps ideal. A cheapo 125 is probably better, but then I'd have thought Scomadis are for a different target audience.

The big worry might be spares, I think they're in different hands now and the original company/owners basically just seemed to have washed their hands of these TL models. Possibly Adam Tasso or someone bought remaining spares. The new Scomadi company are basically only interested in their own (TT) models, reading between the lines that's what it seems, anyhow. The TT has metals panels instead of plastic, are slightly narrower and have Euro 5 (iirc) injection engines, where the TL (carb) are Euro 4. TT200 can be chipped quite cheaply at the dealers, TL200 require some ridiculously expensive re-map, new exhaust, rollers blah blah blah which ends up costing about £800 with the fitting. They reckon 4 more horses, not much more top end but loads more pulling power. I expect they're a good laugh chipped, they go very well standard in 200 format.

 

The 125s can just have a carb slider (or something like that) and an aftermarket exhaust, so lots cheaper to bling up a bit. They (125) seem to vary wildly though perfomance wise. My mate's with his missus on the back would not be that far off mine and will sit at 60, where others were struggling to do 53mph ridden sol. Maybe the TT models ironed that out and they're a bit more uniform. They also switched production from China (TL) to Thailand (TT) but this is likely to be to do with the lawsuit that cost them a stupid amount of money against Royal Alloy who (allegedly) just ripped off Scomadi's design and possibly were made at same factory, ala cheap Chinese 'peds discussed before.

Royal Alloy seem more switched on and have bought out a 300 of their own (Scomadi had one for a very short time, it had a Vespa engine) and reputedly the RA is a right nice thing. Scomadi promised for years there'd be a 250 manual, a 400cc and all kinds of things, of which sod all seems to have materialised.

 

TL:DR. I love mine and would recommend one. 

 

 

[Cavcraft]

10 minutes ago, UltraWomble said:

Scomadi do seem to have their shit together when it comes to supply and build quality - I keep an eye on the local retailer / importer ScooterModa in Preston and there seems to be little but praise for them delivering well nailed together scooters and when there is an issue they do seem to get the problems sorted fairly quickly and with little arseache.

Benelli seem to be doing reasonably well with their Chinese TNT125, though not without issues ( usually electrical / ECU related) the dealers seem to be able to honour their warranty agreements and get the spare bits quickly.

Like any bike/ car - neglect it or dick about with it and invariably it will suffer and become unreliable whether its Chinese or Japanese. Though Chinese stuff seems to rust faster ( even the early Yam YBR125's nailed together in China suffered with rust).

ScooterModa are part owners of Scomadi, iirc. If I ever buy a new one I'll go there, he's absolutely passionate about them and does 'dealer specials' in snazzy colours. ScooterModa also seem to be all over Britain delivering them to people and are extremely highly rated by their customers.  

[gtd2000]

15 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

 

Not long after I got it the speedo packed up (went wonky) which is a common thing, and was replaced under warranty. Then it'd randomly cut out at traffic lights, the ECU was re-flashed under warranty (same time as speedo) and  the horn packed up (frayed wire that was too short anyhow)  Later on had it serviced at a place that turned out to be fucking awful (wish I'd read their reviews first) but afterwards it definitely went better, God knows why.

 

It's fast (84-ish mph and still pulling), really nice to ride, more comfortable than a Vespa,  the brakes are great and (aside from white lines, especially in the wet) it corners quite well. Never measured economy, genuinely haven't a clue, I just always make sure the tank is full as possible. Keep a pop bottle full of juice in the tool box 'just in case' though. As a commuter it's probably not as ideal for weaving in and out of traffic as it's slightly bulky and a smidge heavier than perhaps ideal. A cheapo 125 is probably better, but then I'd have thought Scomadis are for a different target audience.

The big worry might be spares, I think they're in different hands now and the original company/owners basically just seemed to have washed their hands of these TL models. Possibly Adam Tasso or someone bought remaining spares. The new Scomadi company are basically only interested in their own (TT) models, reading between the lines that's what it seems, anyhow. The TT has metals panels instead of plastic, are slightly narrower and have Euro 5 (iirc) injection engines, where the TL (carb) are Euro 4. TT200 can be chipped quite cheaply at the dealers, TL200 require some ridiculously expensive re-map, new exhaust, rollers blah blah blah which ends up costing about £800 with the fitting. They reckon 4 more horses, not much more top end but loads more pulling power. I expect they're a good laugh chipped, they go very well standard in 200 format.

 

The 125s can just have a carb slider (or something like that) and an aftermarket exhaust, so lots cheaper to bling up a bit. They (125) seem to vary wildly though perfomance wise. My mate's with his missus on the back would not be that far off mine and will sit at 60, where others were struggling to do 53mph ridden sol. Maybe the TT models ironed that out and they're a bit more uniform. They also switched production from China (TL) to Thailand (TT) but this is likely to be to do with the lawsuit that cost them a stupid amount of money against Royal Alloy who (allegedly) just ripped off Scomadi's design and possibly were made at same factory, ala cheap Chinese 'peds discussed before.

Royal Alloy seem more switched on and have bought out a 300 of their own (Scomadi had one for a very short time, it had a Vespa engine) and reputedly the RA is a right nice thing. Scomadi promised for years there'd be a 250 manual, a 400cc and all kinds of things, of which sod all seems to have materialised.

 

TL:DR. I love mine and would recommend one. 

 

 

I remember when the change over to fuel injection came about and the new cost of most basic Chinese "shitters" increased by £400 or so.

I've always been of the outlook that I'd rather replace a lower quality carb that costs a tenner, than deal with potentially suspect (and expensive) fuel injection systems with unknown reliability. This outlook was dismissed on the Lexmoto facebook pages, at the time,  usually by dealers (or self confessed experts)  but I've noticed an increased number of folks in recent months with problems related to fuelling on fuel injected models.

With the Rider's Cub, the issues I had were a non air-tight fuel tank level float, which was replaced with a wine bottle cork and works perfectly...  Then last year, the speedo worm gear drive failed. Looks like a lack of grease/lubrication was at fault there.  I ordered a replacement from China but it was slightly too narrow but it wasn't specifically for a Super Cub and only cost £2.50 so no big deal. Currently using a Home Bargains £2.99 bicycle speedo in the meantime, which is OK up to 45mph. I'm only concerned with 30 limits anyway.

One of the things I've noticed with Chinese bikes, that's woefully below Japanese standards, is the quality of rubber or rubberised components.  They appear to be made of some very low grade "rubber" that does not have the same durability of anything Japanese. That said, replacements cost next to nothing if you order from China. I've noticed my foot-peg rubbers are now cracked (still serviceable)  so ordered a new pair from China at £2.82 delivered. The side stand foot rubber also failed but that's not something I'm concerned about anyway. If they last another 6 years I'll be fine with that!

The prices to make your Scomadi faster, appear reassuringly expensive from my outlook, @ £200 per extra horse, is nuts!

I did a 70cc top end swap on a Nanfang 50 last summer, didn't go any faster  but made a huge difference pulling away and going up hills. Suspect the front sprocket might be able to handle an extra tooth.

I guess I just look at the Chinese bikes as being a cheap alternative for a bit of fun in a new package. I wouldn't dream of paying current new prices for them but if one can be picked up cheaply, I'd certainly go for it. Once a Mash Roadstar gets below a grand, I might be tempted...

Then again, I have a hankering for a Hyosung GV650 and never owned a Korean bike, I hear they can also be pretty horrific for quality too?

 

[face]

16 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Royal Alloy seem more switched on and have bought out a 300 of their own (Scomadi had one for a very short time, it had a Vespa engine) and reputedly the RA is a right nice thing. Scomadi promised for years there'd be a 250 manual, a 400cc and all kinds of things, of which sod all seems to have materialised.

I went to look at a new Royal Alloy yesterday, a 125 GT. And yes, it is a very nice scooter. Looks ace and feels very solidly put together.

You can get a plastic or metal body one, 50-300cc and air or water cooled.

I am seriously considering one.

The chap there reckoned Scomadi were in trouble and could fold anytime.

[Cavcraft]

49 minutes ago, face said:

I went to look at a new Royal Alloy yesterday, a 125 GT. And yes, it is a very nice scooter. Looks ace and feels very solidly put together.

You can get a plastic or metal body one, 50-300cc and air or water cooled.

I am seriously considering one.

The chap there reckoned Scomadi were in trouble and could fold anytime.

Sadly, that's possibly correct and it'll have been the court case with RA that did it, almost certainly. 

 

Of the two 'usual' RAs, the GT doesn't look quite as nice as the GP, imho . The new 300 in that grey colour is very tempting, think Midlands Scooter Centre said they'd be about £4,500 but would need to double check that.

[face]

30 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

Sadly, that's possibly correct and it'll have been the court case with RA that did it, almost certainly. 

 

Of the two 'usual' RAs, the GT doesn't look quite as nice as the GP, imho . The new 300 in that grey colour is very tempting, think Midlands Scooter Centre said they'd be about £4,500 but would need to double check that.

Yes that business with RA has lead to this. That’s a shame.

The GP is AC and metal bodied, plus they do those in a lovely ivory colour.Heavier though, but only £200-£300.

The RAs definitely look better in the flesh than in pictures. I was very impressed with it. They had a black and white (which I would go for) and a black / red.

[wuvvum]

6 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

Then again, I have a hankering for a Hyosung GV650 and never owned a Korean bike, I hear they can also be pretty horrific for quality too?

The Hyosung I had seemed pretty well screwed together.

[gtd2000]

21 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

The Hyosung I had seemed pretty well screwed together.

Did you have one of the 650 models?

[wuvvum]

Nope, GT125.

Think the GV650 is basically a Suzuki SV motor though isn't it?

[strangeangel]

1 hour ago, wuvvum said:

The Hyosung I had seemed pretty well screwed together.

 

As was the Daelim I had, certainly way better than any of the Chinese offerings I've laid hands on.

[Cavcraft]

5 hours ago, face said:

Yes that business with RA has lead to this. That’s a shame.

The GP is AC and metal bodied, plus they do those in a lovely ivory colour.Heavier though, but only £200-£300.

The RAs definitely look better in the flesh than in pictures. I was very impressed with it. They had a black and white (which I would go for) and a black / red.

 

Got a feeling that the RA 125s are cheaper than Scomadi too, aren't they about £2795 for a new GT125 or something? Anyhow, if you can score a test ride somewhere it'd be worth it, I think you'll be impressed and it'd be worth testing out the seat height and width of the scooter etc. 

[face]

15 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

 

Got a feeling that the RA 125s are cheaper than Scomadi too, aren't they about £2795 for a new GT125 or something? Anyhow, if you can score a test ride somewhere it'd be worth it, I think you'll be impressed and it'd be worth testing out the seat height and width of the scooter etc. 

Yeah £2799 for the GT125. The one they have is £2699, as that was the price when it was shipped to them.

£3K for the metal bodied version.

£4K for the quicker 11 hp liquid cooled one, which is far too much for me to swallow.

I had a sit on it and It’s fairly girthy. OK for me but I wouldn’t want to be much shorter (I’m 5’10”)

[Cavcraft]

That's the same as the Scomadi then, by the sounds of it. It's odd how wide they are, once you're used to it they're great, but would put me off commuting through traffic jams.

[gtd2000]

3 hours ago, wuvvum said:

Nope, GT125.

Think the GV650 is basically a Suzuki SV motor though isn't it?

I think that's a bit of a story people push that's not quite accurate.

From what I understand Hyosung used to make the SV650 engine for Suzuki and the Hyosung 650 engine is based on or derived from the SV unit but has no interchangeable/shared parts.

 

You'll still see adverts saying Hyosung with Suzuki SV650 engine etc.

From what I've read, it sounds like the charging systems are suspect and Kawasaki replacements are favoured. Speedos can reset to zero and the first models suffered from leaky fuel tank seams.

I would need to offload a couple of my bikes (or possibly one) before getting anything else though. 

[gtd2000]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:55 PM, Cavcraft said:

That's the same as the Scomadi then, by the sounds of it. It's odd how wide they are, once you're used to it they're great, but would put me off commuting through traffic jams.

What's the plans for the SS then?

Oily rag and run or restore?

[Cavcraft]

7 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

What's the plans for the SS then?

Oily rag and run or restore?

At the moment just leave it as it is, but fix indicators and speedo. Given that it seems to share a few parts with the C90 though, I might order some new rims and switches etc and start tidying it up.

[strangeangel]

26 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

At the moment just leave it as it is, but fix indicators and speedo. Given that it seems to share a few parts with the C90 though, I might order some new rims and switches etc and start tidying it up.

 

No performance upgrades planned then blud?

 

 

Joking apart, I know someone who actually did try one of these. The supplied carb was a doorstop, he had to buy a Keihin and already had an exhaust gas analyser to help him set it up. Even with the proper gear, jetting it was a nightmare, and although it was scarily fast when I had a go on it (too fast for the brakes!) it had a horrible flat spot low down that he could never eliminate. IMO these motors are just for racing I guess, certainly the lightened flywheel made it all but impossible to ride in town, as it wanted to stall if you let the revs drop below about 5000.

 

[Cavcraft]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cylinder-Engine-Motor-Rebuild-Kit-For-Honda-ATC70-CT70-TRX70-CRF70-XR70-70CC/173894775730?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D14b02be8cb754325bc21dfd75face1cc%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283777447594%26itm%3D173894775730%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ac4aacbe2-4bdb-11ea-a9a2-74dbd180e220|parentrq%3A2e1f91731700aa66f61a51d3ffe42c8e|iid%3A1

 

Look at the 'quality' of the head, FFS...

 

 

[gtd2000]

That head does indeed look pretty horrific in the picture but it was all fine when I fitted one.

I initially thought the "hole" at the bottom was a failed casting but they're all like that. Wasn't something I expected to see...?

[gtd2000]

1 hour ago, Cavcraft said:

At the moment just leave it as it is, but fix indicators and speedo. Given that it seems to share a few parts with the C90 though, I might order some new rims and switches etc and start tidying it up.

If you need switches, these might be an option.

US $10.78  50%OFF | 1pair JH70 JH48 Handlebar Switch Assembly Motorcycle left and right handle switch modification handle Spare Parts
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Tzzqq

[Cavcraft]

19 minutes ago, gtd2000 said:

That head does indeed look pretty horrific in the picture but it was all fine when I fitted one.

I initially thought the "hole" at the bottom was a failed casting but they're all like that. Wasn't something I expected to see...?

Ahh, didn't know you had one, did it make much difference? For 'originality' they must look better than a semi-automatic Lifan (or similar) engine, but is there enough 'go' to be worth changing from the original 49cc top end?