Mr_Bo11ox Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Hey what about this! http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/1 ... ls-lancia/ Word is the Lancia name is getting the bullet. Probably for the best, there was a brief glimmer of hope with the Thesis, but that went out a long time ago and its been pitch black ever since Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiny Norman Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Shame if it's true, but not entirely unexpected. I heard recently that PSA are bleeding to the tune of $250 million a month too, that can't go on much longer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-M Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Shame that. I have a soft spot for some Lancias. I liked the combination of nicely trimmed interior with pokey engine. Even the Integrales I had felt quite nice inside, alcantara trimmed Recaros made it feel slightly nicer than most of the alternatives. Shame they both rattled like skeletons shagging in a biscuit tin falling down a flight of stairs. I love the Thema 8.32, and have a strange urge to import a Delta HF - one of the FWD 'later shape than the Integrale' jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_senator Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I`ve really not liked the range`s "retro" styling for the last decade, which is a shame as I believe all Italian cars should be things of loveliness, both dynamically AND visually. Gutting news all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyloud Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 That's a shame, Fiats ham-fisted Chrysler tie up was the final nail in the coffin really. The fact that the styling resemble elephant vaginas don't help neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompei Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Interesting wording ... "the Lancia brand" ... for that is what it became, from a once great marque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedvan Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 That is sad that Lancia is being put out to grass, it seems that it is another example of a marque being manipulated to fit within a larger group of car-makers with the result that eventually they cease to make coherent sense. We've seen it here in Britain with BL's attempts to position brands like Wolesley, Morris and Triumph and eventually the use of the Rover brand by British Aerospace and briefly BMW. It happened also to SAAB within GM. I think the effect of the hurried and unnatural positioning is that the new deliberate positioning rather than the what had been organically before fails to stick with the buying public, with Rover the brand never recovered fully enough from the poor quality image of the 70's and 80's enough for the marque to ever be truly credible as a poor man's BMW - it was all a little rushed. For Lancia this is devastating but also for the larger FIAT Chrysler group, just from the brief outline in the article it sounds as if they are abandoning the middle ground - the Focus/Mondeo ground - and that is where the profit really comes in in manufacturing, for a long time FIAT have had big successes with their smaller models, shucking out 127s Unos and Puntos by the million and thats cool, very cool but not as profitable as other sectors.Does this mean that the group expect Chrysler to fill that void in Europe? I doubt that is a realistic plan, Chrysler Europe is a long way from a fully fledged brand imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partridge Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 In a way I’m not sad. It’s more of a case of putting them out of their misery than anything else. Lancia really died in the 90’s imho... "Shame they both rattled like skeletons shagging in a biscuit tin falling down a flight of stairs.†I’m going to use that quote now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollywobbler Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Tricky one. I think Lancia's death goes even further back, to the 1970s when Fiat was taking control. Before that, Lancias were superbly engineered - serious overkill which naturally makes no money at all. Who cares though - the cars were superb. The Gamma was the last stab at something incredible, but I think Fiat must have controlled the budget as it was a bit crap really. Almost superb but with a real feel of cost-cutting about some of the engineering. Apart from the Delta Integrale, they've done very little of note since the 1970s, just becoming more and more like Fiats with a posh grille and odd styling. Just another brand. By contrast, I'm not sure how I feel about Citroen now. Like Lancia, they used to build wacky, marvellously engineered machines but then a more sensible firm took over and put an end to it. Citroen is actually going through a bit of a revival at the moment with a thankful end to budget-Peugeot branding. But this isn't the same Citroen that build cars like the DS and CX, anymore than the current MINI is in any way related to the original. It's all just brands. I hate marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairnet Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 need a shitetrip to italy or france for one..... theres a red one i see r reg at work occsionally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I think it was also a case of putting them out of their misery, as the last interesting ones were built in the 1990s. The list of one-time competitors to BMW and Audi is getting smaller by the year - Triumph, Rover, Saab and now Lancia. It does mean that Fiat have to really make Alfa Romeo work or they are absolute toast. As for Chrysler as a premium brand? - don't make me laugh! The upper medium market is taking a bashing, the current Mondeo has only sold 157k in five years - there's no way they'd be doing another unless it was also the US Fusion, which is a big seller over there. This is the reason Genk will be shut when the current Mondy, S Max and Galaxy reach the end of their cycle, which can't be too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedvan Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 157K Mondeo in 5 years? Thats a horrifying statistic Anton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollywobbler Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Ford seem worryingly off the pace. They seem to be sticking with conventional cars when no-one seems to want them. Nissan abandoned that world and is (sadly) experiencing great success with the Puke and Cash Cow. Ford has the Kuga, and it doesn't seem to be trying very hard to sell those. I think the current Mondeo has two big problems. One, it's enormous. Two, it looks horribly American at the front. People who want a family car don't want something that big that only seats five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Ford Europe seem to be in the position where the Fiesta and the Focus are the only big sellers, plus the 'Max' things. In a way this is good because both are built in high cost Germany. The lack of marketing support given to the Kuga is mystifying considering the success of the Qashqai. I also think the next Transit is going to be nothing like as successful as the previous ones. It will be interesting to see how the Vauxhall/Renault joint van develops given GM Europe's tie up with PSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 157K Mondeo in 5 years? Thats a horrifying statistic Anton! In the best days of the Cortina it was selling 250k a year, and that not counting the Taunus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betaphile Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 It hasn't been officially killed yet, but it's just laying the groundwork for the inevitable announcement in a couple of years. It is sad, but no surprise at all - Lannie has been steadily defunded since the mid-'90s and the process has only really accelerated in the last decade. Part of the problem is, I think, that Marchionne has no real conception of the way Fiat always traditionally survived - as a big conglomerate, where the rest of the group has traditionally subsidised the car division (it was pretty much always a conglomerate, right back to 1899 - various bits got flogged over the years to pay the bills). Having split the serious profit generators (e.g. CNH, Teksid, Iveco) into a separate company, Marchionne's approach is explicitly that each product and initiative must pay its way. This sounds okay in theory, but it's classic accountant syndrome at work - there is no conception of investment for undefined future payoff (e.g. maintaining market share in a pivotal segment). For the record, Apple does the same thing of requiring each product to pay its way. The difference is, Apple can get away with that since people buy their stuff... Tangentially, the language Marchionne uses in interviews is very revealing in itself. It's all "I need to get this return" and "This product is critical for me". Note, that's 'I' and 'me', not 'we' and 'us'. There are plenty of people who will tell you he is autocratic and surrounds himself with yes-men. The same people who tell you this tend to no longer work at Fiat, a point which is usually not entirely unrelated. Truth be known, Fiat's fate was set the day Gianni Agnelli died back in 2003. Gianni was the only member of the family to be in any way committed to cars - the rest couldn't care less. This is why they've given free rein to Marchionne to 'sort it out' as he sees fit. This latest plan fits with form - they have decided that the Fiat brand is a total waste of time pitching in anything above the supermini realm, so it will be cut back to 500, Panda and derivatives. This will work fine in the short-term as it saves a whole bunch of money on not developing a new Bravo, and possibly Punto. In the medium-term it destroys Fiat's ability to survive since its competitors will just continue to eat its lunch in market share. All the stuff about the proposed merger with Opel and PSA (which Marchionne's denied, but which was corroborated by three other sources)? It's because he knows full well that he needs a presence in the mainstream segments, and I guess he figures that the Opel/PSA brands are a better bet there. He's only denied it as it makes him look desperate (which he is). If you go back and look at Marchionne's record of investment and new models that Fiat has paid for under his leadership, it's actually pathetic. There's been sod-all new metal in Europe and what there has been was developed on the cheap - the new Ypsilon was cooked up on just 500 million euros, which is piss-all in industry terms. All the profitability which is coming from Chrysler is basically from 'free' development that was handed to him on a plate - the new Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durangos were basically ready to launch, ditto the 300/Charger, a new Ram pickup, and the Pentastar V6 and ZF eight-speed auto installation. The kitty to keep on developing new products for Europe got raided to pay for the remaining Chrysler revamps... this was justified since they were waiting for a 'structural recovery' in Europe. Net result is that Fiat's market share has tanked and the manufacturers which kept investing in new models (read VW) have benefited. Huge surprise. It fits the pattern. Even when he took the top job at Fiat in 2004, he was really just overseeing the rollout of cars developed under previous management - the 159, Grande Punto, Sedici, Croma... not counting the then-new Panda and Y which were launched just before he took over. Think about the replacement schedule for those products, then compare them to what any rival manages. The latest announcement now means the entire farm is basically being punted on Alfa, which I regard as moronic (the idea of Alfa as the mystical second coming has been around longer than I've been alive), but I guess the whole house of cards can survive a little longer if he can persuade Mazda to enter into a shotgun marriage or something, which seems to be this week's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I hope it's over before we have to look at this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myglaren Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I hope it's over before we have to look at this: That is just about the ugliest thing I have ever seen, makes the Nissan Junk look almost pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshirelad Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The writing has been on the wall for Lancia sadly for many many moons. The decision not to reimport them, but to rebadge them as Chryslers was sadly prefdicable. If Fiat decide not to replace the Punto Grand Punto, i fear that that will be a rather large mistake. Concentrating on one small car and a super mini is a recipy for disaster. The car buying general masses have by nature, i didtrust of cars with the Alfa Romeo badge. Petrol heads might like them but given a choice of a Fiat badged car and an Alfa badged car, most would go for the Fiat even if the cars were identical in every way apart form the badges!. I think rather than sourround himsel with yes men the boss of Fiat should take a look at his export markets and see what the people in those markets actually buy. If they are seriouse about selling the bigger Chryslers then it would be a good idea to include a diesal engine in the range. At the mo unless i am mistaken there isnt one.. Quite a few of the original 300c were sold as diesals. The fuel consumption and road tax cost put most buyers off of the petrol engined breed. What cars are they going to brand as Alfas anyway as the middle ground with the Guilleta.. Below that are the Chryslers, which should be Lancias! However what are they going to replace the Punto etall with as the Punto was once credited with saving Fiat? Presumably a Alfa badged engineered car. Fiat dealers wont be too happu at only having 2 cars to sell, two small ones at that too. A comprehensive re think is needed wwith marketing stratagedy methinks or FIAT/Lancia/ Chrysler, are gonna come unstuck probally sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedvan Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I hope it's over before we have to look at this: That is just about the ugliest thing I have ever seen, makes the Nissan Junk look almost pretty. I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reverend Bluejeans Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 In a way, they are on the right track. Fiat are wasting time making anything other than small, fashionable cars - it's what they do well. Alfa Romeo is a prime brand just waiting for Fiat to stop pissing about and bring out a good, wide model range to take the middle ground and they should do well with it. They no that the next chance really will be the last. Having said that, they are well on the way to ruining Maserati - yes they'll sell more and make more money, but in the same way Rolex would sell ten times as many watches if they brought out an £800 watch with a Seiko movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiny Norman Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 When you see some of the hideous abortions they've been foisting on the rear of Europe over the last few years, maybe it's for the best.The company that made the great Lancias of the past has been dead since they killed the Integrale. The Kappa Coupe was quite interesting but by that time nobody cared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtd2000 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I hope it's over before we have to look at this: That is just about the ugliest thing I have ever seen, makes the Nissan Junk look almost pretty. Design inspiration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtd2000 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 RIP = Rest in Peace or RUST in Peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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