French cars ?

[Stixy]

Why is it that french cars seem to have short troubled lives in this country yet in France they still have Chrysler Alpine's 180's Renault 20's 14's etc stuff thats been extinct here for years ?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

The same reason scrapyards are full of fixable Mondeos, Vectras etc - nobody wants to repair anything and there isn't much bodging spirit anymore. ABS light on? Not if you wire it ito the brake pad warning light it isn't.

I'm running a Laguna 11 diseasel Tourer, supposedly the most unreliable car made but we'll see.

[Andrew353w]

I'm STILL running my 1995 Citroen Xantia automatic; 133K miles on the clock & going like a trooper! It's the old adage; look after it and (generally speaking) it'll look after you*

 

 

 

*= Am typing this during a quiet moment at work; what's the betting I'll get to the staff car park at 11pm tonight & the bloody thing won't start?

[Micrashed]

Citroens still seem to invoke that sharp drawing in of breath through teeth of mechanics in this country "its gonna cost ye guv" is their mantra.

 

In reality most Citroens are no more complex than any other tin on the road. Even HP systems are quite straightforward to maintain. But with the dying breed of home mechanic the cost of even simple repairs soon pts people off maintaining them. Then there are silly things like PSA's ridiculous service intervals (designed for fleet sales I think) 20K miles for an oil change, 100K miles for a belt change? I dont bloody think so, no when pretty much every HDi C8 that goes past 50K miles on its original belt ends up grenading the engine.

 

So owners either skimp on regular maintainance (either through design or ignorance) and what could have a decent lifespan is reduced. That said the increase of electronics in cars also sounds the death knell for many. 80's and 90's cars were far less complex beasts than modern ones and there was many a time I bodged my Mk2 Fiasco with 2.5mm T&E wire and some scotchlocks.

[willswitchengage]

Because France has less of a maritime climate and it doesn't rain as much. Britain has got to be one of the worst countries for rust.

[shedvan]

Also these cars sold in far larger numbers to begin with in France

[R9UKE]

... and in France they actually respect the marques. Not the "It's French, it's shit" attitude we have here.

[ayd]

still got a 1989 5 GT Turbo in full working (but off the road) order.

 

I must admit though I don't see so many older Citroen's these days but that may be because every 2nd car I used to see was a Saxo when they offered them out years ago with Free Insurance and Tax.....

[RENOMAD]

... and in France they actually respect the marques. Not the "It's French, it's shit" attitude we have here.

 

 

brill,,,,,what i've been trying to say for years.

[Spiny Norman]

I think the French (and most of the rest of the world, come to that) pay more for their used cars than we do here, so they're far less inclined to go, "Fuck it, it's not worth that, I'll scrap it" when the ABS pump or an exhaust goes on a 6 year old Clio.

 

Cars in the UK seem to fall off a cliff depreciation wise in just 5 years or so, and the value of a car that age seems to have little bearing on its condition, the trade just looks at 'The Book', suck their teeth and offer you about a quarter of what you paid for it just a few years ago. I don't think it's like that in France.

[Baz]

Why is it that french cars seem to have short troubled lives in this country yet in France they still have Chrysler Alpine's 180's Renault 20's 14's etc stuff thats been extinct here for years ?

 

I think that, as a nation, we never really took to "Proper" French cars....By that I mean the quirky, characterful stuff of the sixties, seventies, and even eighties....Especially the larger stuff such as the CX, 604, R20/30, Tagora etc....In the past, we would stick with our own, more conservative, domestic manufacturers, and more recently we seem to aspire toward hideous Audis, BMWs and the like....We just didn't "Get" the French stuff, wheras obviously the French did!

 

I'm not sorry really....Would I go all weak at the knees at the sight of a Peugeot 604 if they were all over the place? I don't think so....The charismatic Frenchies are rare and exclusive....That is GOOD, for those that own them....Not so good for those of us that can't afford a decent example, and couldn't find one anyway!

 

Jesus, I can't even afford a 2CV nowadays....Not so long ago, I'd buy one every so often, just to get my fix!

[uk_senator]

I think theres a number of reasons, firstly national pride, we had it here till the 70`s came along, but the French & Italians held onto it much longer, although now, much like here, German cars are seen as more prestigious & reliable, so have taken a big chunk out of the home brands market share.

 

Also French petrol engines arent the most sparkling & rarely match other aspects of the car, usually being rattly old things within a year or two.

 

From a mechanics perspective (& I`ve had a fair number of French automobiles) I find the way they put them together nonsensical, thats possibly because I was taught in a different way (my C&G courses were largely spent working on ex-police Cortina`s & Escorts with the odd bit of BL shite thrown in) & so I never bothered to think like a French engineer.

 

Also there were issues when it came to scrapping cars in France, so people tended to hang on to them for longer anyway.

[idiotboy]

Sharing my life with a French Person I asked her this question about the French and their cars. I said name a good car and the results were thus.

 

2CV

Renault 5

Peugeot 205

Dacia

 

Oddly though a Dyane is not as good a car as a 2CV (in her eyes) neither is a Peugeot 309 which are apparently shit, along with the R14 poire.

 

The French like cheap practical cars, and most patriotic French persons will not buy anything Bosche, including German cars. BMW drivers (promounced Bee mmm vee in France) are generally regarded as w**kers and if you have a Merc you're probably regarded as a closet Nazi.

 

Dacia's especially breaks (estates) are flying off the forecourts there because at last a new basic, no frills cheap car is being made. Lada's were very popular and even now you can't go far out in the country without spotting a Niva, fitted with the bullet proof peugeot XUD engine.

 

The age old question of why all French cars seem to be white has also been answered. Was it to do with the high temps of a Provencale summer? No its because a white car is the cheapest.

[Partridge]

I think the point about (overt/perceived imho) prestige is the crux of the matter. Cars like Mercs, Audis, BMWs and lately VWs still have a level of “street cred†even when they’re knackered. BMWs in particular are popular in the pickey/chav scene where the owners of a two generation old 520i will stick later model M-sport alloys on it and clear light lenses, hoping to look like rappers, when in truth, they just make themselves look poor and stupid. Don’t get me wrong, I like old Bimmers but so many fall into the wrong hands. And even Vectras and Astras have some respect with the Tesco Car Park Touring Car Championship scene.

Prestige will always be in demand. A poor old Citroen will have no cred to a lot of non car people, so once it reaches the 7 year old mark, it’s worthless.

[dollywobbler]

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there! My fleet:

 

2CV = 190,000 miles

BX TGD estate = 190,000 miles

BX TXD Turbo = 106,000 miles

 

That's considered barely run in. You regularly hear of BXs topping 300,000 miles and I know of Xantia taxis that have done much more than that. I also know of a 2CV that has just had an engine rebuild after 300,000 miles. The TXD I own has the lowest mileage of any BX I've ever owned. My first had 145,000 on the clock, the next was a 16Valve with 170,000 clocked up.

 

There's definitely a problem with maintenance. Most garages run a mile because they don't understand how things work. That means you either have to be a savvy owner or live near one of the few specialists.

 

I think sometimes the reputation is unjustified. In the same way that Land Rovers are seen as hideously unreliable but I'm browsing the world of Discovery ownership and they all seem to have clocked up at least 190,000 miles, often more like 250,000.

[flat4alfa]

Different lifestyle. Different taxation. Very different depreciation curves due to far less lease-fleet purchases

 

Many Frenchpersons by a car privately and keep it for the duration, passing it down through the family. Depreciation doesn't come into it.

 

Most Rosbifs see the ABS light pop on and chop it in in panic before it costs too much, embarrassed too that it's getting a bit old now and the neighbours have noticed.

[idiotboy]

Different lifestyle. Different taxation. Very different depreciation curves due to far less lease-fleet purchases

 

Many Frenchpersons by a car privately and keep it for the duration, passing it down through the family. Depreciation doesn't come into it.

 

Most Rosbifs see the ABS light pop on and chop it in in panic before it costs too much, embarrassed too that it's getting a bit old now and the neighbours have noticed.

 

 

Agreed. I got upset yesterday about finding a parking ding on the Volvo, my partners reaction was "Bof! She's got a bit of history, deal with it!" Mind you now that I have made it clear that the Allegro is "her" car she seems mad keen on keeping it nice. Only last week she was out there redying the Vinyl roof to restore its chocolatey hue and that is something she'd wouldn't have given a monkey's about in France.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Different lifestyle. Different taxation. Very different depreciation curves due to far less lease-fleet purchases

 

Many Frenchpersons by a car privately and keep it for the duration, passing it down through the family. Depreciation doesn't come into it.

 

Most Rosbifs see the ABS light pop on and chop it in in panic before it costs too much, embarrassed too that it's getting a bit old now and the neighbours have noticed.

 

The same as with houses in France. We regard houses as an investment (even though they aren't really), the French regard them as a home. That's why they're so inexpensive compared to the comedy prices here. £150'000 to live in a shithole like Milton Keynes? I mean, really!

I've done a few jobs on the Lagooner - cambelt, window regulator etc and found it to be pretty simple. Avoid Regie for all but the most vital bits and the parts are cheap as well. Modern French cars are crap really - the reputation isn't dreamed up - but there are three mitigating points.

 

1.) They're probably no worse than VAG stuff.

2.) There are millions running around okay.

3.) They're worth fuck all secondhand and as such represent a lot of car for the money. 2004 Laguna 1.8 petrol £1500. 2004 318i £3500. Go figure.

[dollywobbler]

There is a very different way of life, but you see it to a certain extent here in rural Wales. Most people keep the same car for absolutely ages, often buying new and only replacing it when it doesn't work anymore. It's a bit refreshing if you've come from the sort of place where keeping up with the neighbours is important! (not that I tended to pay much attention to it).

[Formula Autos]

To me at least, the way the cars are marketed in the UK when they are new comes into it to some extent.

 

French makes tend to flag up any new technology on the cars, and generally portray them as cutting edge in that respect. Prime example are the ad for the Laguna II from a few years back, where a young couple fight over the key card for the car, and the ad for the original Citroen C5, showing how the hazard lights come on after an emergency stop. Sometimes this is even in non-specific ways, like the Citroen C4 Transformers advert from a few years ago. For those customers frightened of technology, this can be a bad thing.

 

German makes tend to portray themselves in advertising as well built, thorough designs. Teutonic, for want of a better word. The Audi 'Vorsprung Durch Technik' ads from the '80s, and the recent 'like a Golf' adverts are a case in point. This does mean some customers might see them as boring and/or over engineered though.

 

The reality is that both sets of cars are near enough as fragile as each other and probably contain roughly the same amount of gizmos. The public perception of them though, after decades of such ad campaigns, is vastly different. Citroen seem to have cottoned onto this, and the ads for the current C5 when it was launched tapped (with tongue in cheek) into the whole German 'quality' thing.

 

Really, it's all down to the different USPs of the cars that have been put over to the UK public over the past few decades.

[Partridge]

@ Formula Autos.

 

Well said. Although VAG are pretty hot on advertising their tech. 'Vorsprung Durch Technik’ means ahead in technology after all. And who else remember VW ramming their ‘FSI’ engines down our throats talking about how tech laden the bloody things were?

But I really can’t imagine BMW doing an advert where the latest 5 series comes to life and starts dancing...

 

And yup, German cars aren’t really anymore reliable than most. BMW diesels went through a stage of ‘swirl flap’ problems which would lead to the engine eating the turbo for dinner, and recently had a recall concerning a battery fault which would result in the car catching fire. Nice. VWs had their electric parking brakes seizing on, leaving drivers stranded at traffic lights.

Although the little 1.4 Polo I drive has only got through a cat (not the four legged kind with fur), a suspension bush (thanks to a massive pothole) and had it’s air con re-gassed. No mechanical issues to speak of *touches desk*. I love it

[Cavcraft]

I think a lot of the problem with French cars is that they're often seen as crap, so this effects resales and the amount of potential buyers.

[jonny69]

Some Frenchies do seem to be built in a completely nonsensical order. On our old Scenic 1, the only order of assembly I could work out was that they hung the headlights on strings in the middle of the factory and added bits round them working backwards until it was a car. It meant that to change a headlight unit without modifying* anything you had to take both doors off, then the wings, then a trim piece, then the grille, then the bumper and a subframe underneath. And I'm not actually joking either! It just meant that for the smallest job needed you to dismantle huge amounts of the car which seemed ridiculous in my mind.

 

But I'm not under any illusion that other makes and models are any different. Car manufacturers spend thousands working out the fastest most efficient way to assemble a car to maximise profits and delay laying off their workforce for another 3 months.

 

We recently bought a 1.5 year old 207 auto for less than half its original cost. Even if it depreciates away most of the rest of its value while we've got it, it still poses remarkable value compared to any of the other hatches that size. It's had to have the auto box looked at under the warranty which I'm not that impressed about, if I'm honest, but there are plenty of other new cars out there throwing up their individual problems that need looking at under warranty claims.

[Partridge]

@ johnny69 You had to partly dismantle the car to take a headlight out?

[Bobthebeard]

Tis true.... Mrs Bob had a Megane back in 2009 and it was a main dealer/garage job to replace a headlight bulb! Seemingly the front bumper had to be removed.

[trigger]

That's the same for the Ford Focus CliMax too though so it's not just a French thing.

[Bobthebeard]

Odd that in some European countries it is a legal requirement to carry a spare bulb kit though....

How is the average motorist going to fit a headlight bulb to cars thus afflicted? Meh!

[dollywobbler]

That's the same for the Ford Focus CliMax too though so it's not just a French thing.

 

Doesn't the C-max use a PSA diesel engine? It was probably a condition of the licence that they had to make it similarly impossible to work on the car.

[Cavcraft]

That's the same for the Ford Focus CliMax too though so it's not just a French thing.

 

And the Mk4 Astra. Also it's NOT a main dealer job to change them.

[kinkersaab]

The mechanic is as I type , removing wiper arms, then skuttle panel, then wiper motor has to come out, all this so he can begin to change a broken front spring.... The car? Espace.

 

All newish stuff is the same, shit! Of any manufacture, i would avoid Peugeot. every one seems to have issues.