vulgalour Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 Parts delivery! We're getting the windows done today so I was glad of the pipes arriving so I had something to do. Stealing a bit of time while workmen are on lunch, then I have to turn the computer off because noise, mess, etc. in the same room as the computer. I digress. With all the lovely new pipes I could set to installing. For the thermostat, I'm sticking it as close to the head as I can, temperature pick up in pretty much the same place as it was on the original waxstat. Soak the end of the hose in a bit of hot water in a mug so it goes over that rolled edge of the thermostat and then push it into place by pushing down against that custom pipe that was installed in place of the old waxstat housing. Then remove it and trim the elbow down shorter because it was too tall. You also have to put the jubilee in before the hose because there isn't enough clearance to thread the clamp on after the hose because of the casing around one of the cambox bolts. It is a very tight fit. After that, go through and install the various bits of pipe and clamps in the relevant places and you're looking somewhat close to sorted. The filler cap *just* clears the bonnet, and on the first fit I had a kink in the long straight I didn't like. Moving the metal elbow out a bit solved that. It's not quite as elegant as I'd hope for a solution. It should work satisfactorily and doesn't look really any worse than the factory arrangement. Now I'm just waiting on the sump plug washers and another temperature sender to arrive so I can get fluids in and try and start the car. Fumbler, Skizzer, Skut and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiC Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Probably not the right place to put this, but its in your pictures. Is @MikeKnight finally selling the GT6? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F143448352373 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 Yes, he is. Finally made a decision about it and that decision was to make it someone else's problem so he can focus on other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiC Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Looks a great project for someone. I'd love it for to be me, but we're on our fifth buyer and over a year trying to move house. Given up guessing now when we will actually move. Have you given up moving completely now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 We're in the final stages of the move. Solicitor just keeps saying two weeks. We should have been moving right about now, everything is done, but apparently it'll be another two weeks for reasons known only to solicitors. I'm counting no poultry until we have the keys to the place. loserone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeKnight Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Found a picture of your solicitor. ? GrumpiusMaximus, Tickman and vulgalour 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 We are slowly winning, today the new sump plug washers arrived. I've used copper compression washers since that's what was on the sump plug and while these are marginally larger, I've not had any oil fall out yet. The new washer is a slightly larger inner diameter than the sump plug thread, and a slightly smaller outer diameter than the sump plug flange, so I expect that will be adequate. Certainly since dumping the relevant quantity of oil into the car, none of it has fallen out, so we should be good. Another item reinstalled was the overflow bottle, with thanks to Mike for getting a bottle brush in there and cleaning the last of the really old dirt that was in it. The bottle now looks as close to new as it's ever likely to and it will allow me to see if any unwanted stuff appears in the coolant much easier. For the filler cap overflow on the new hose, I chopped off the excess of the overflow pipe on the old overflow bottle and transferred it over. This way, should there be any need for the overflow at the filler neck it's not going to run straight down onto the alternator. Free fix and matching hoses a nice added bonus. Battery and earth clamp reinstalled too, battery not yet connected for obvious reasons. The last thing I wanted to show that wasn't as clear in the other pictures is just how far down the radiator drops from the head and highlight another reason for the new hose taking the route it does. I'm just waiting on the new temperature sender to arrive so that I can get coolant in, or rather plain water and Forté biodegreaser, and then coolant after that and any contaminants are flushed out. So very nearly ready to fire it up again now. LightBulbFun, scdan4 and Coprolalia 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 The temperature sender arrived and fits! I had to snip a slot into the plastic cover on the spade connector so it could slide onto the weird top-hat fitting on the sender, it's otherwise no bother and now I can fit either type of sender should I need to in the future. Then I put a whole load of water in it, waited for the air to get out and put more water in it, reconnected the spark plugs, checked all my earth points etc, and fired it up. Then found that the camshaft end seal had come unseated and was weeping a little oil so turned it off, loosened the cambox cover bolts and end plate bolt so I could relocate the camshaft seal properly, tightened everything down and tried again. Timing was really off, and it turned out it was that I'd not quite got the distributor in at the right point, so fixed that and now the timing is pretty close to how it should be, just needs a timing light and a bit of run time to warm things up and get it set. Then I noticed a single oil leak at the top of the cambox end plate, which was a bit strange. Tentatively tightened the bolt on that corner and it suddenly stopped offering any resistance at all. Helicoil kit ordered since I haven't got one, and Mike has one but doesn't have an insert this size. At least access to put the insert in is really good and it should be straightforward. So close! Tickman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scdan4 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Bah. That’s annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skut Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 That loop on top hose is majestic. Boooo for the necessity of a helicoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 Let us start with the good news, then I shall get on to the not so good news. As requested, here follows instructions on how to helicoil or thread repair a stripped thread. First, you need to find out what thread type you need to put back in, you can get little thread measuring comb things for this. Once you know the thread type, you can order the relevant kit, I got mine online because real world shops don't stock anything any more, and I went by Silverline from a reputable seller (if their eBay feedback is anything to go by), it arrived promptly. There are instructions included, and very clear they are too. Included in the kit is a drill bit to clear out the old thread from the hole, a tap to make the new thread for the helicoils to bite into, and a couple of tools, one of which is for inserting the helicoil. Carefully drill out the hole first, a variable speed drill is good for this as you want to go steady, especially on soft material like aluminium. The kit doesn't include a holder for the tap, I found a 6mm hex socket worked quite well. Use a little oil as well so that the tool doesn't bind. When you make the new thread, take your time. It will cut really quite quickly in aluminium and it's best to make a few turns until it starts to offer resistance and then back the tool out a bit to get the swarf out. Be sure to check the depth you're going to on a blind hole, straight through holes aren't an issue in this regard. With the hole tapped with the new thread, flush it out with something like WD40 and clear as much swarf away as you can. Then insert the new helicoil with the tool provided. Find the first one doesn't want to go in, the second one pings off never to be seen again, and the third is the charm going in with no bother. You should be able to wind it all the way in, I couldn't, for some reason this third helicoil decided it didn't want to go all the way in and needed the end trimming off. Before redrilling the hole, tested it with a bolt and it was fine and does the job so it'll do. Easy peasy, really. The paper gasket had got a split in it from where the oil had pushed out so I reinstalled the plate without it, choosing to use sealant instead. This was a mistake. What I didn't know is that the paper gasket at that goes between the head and the end plate actually serves not only to stop the oil escaping but also to space it out a tiny bit from the end of the camshaft. So when I tried to start the car to leak test and do all the other good stuff, it wouldn't. The starter was making a very peculiar noise and while the engine was turning and not making any unusual noises, something was amiss. Then I made it worse. Checked that fuel and spark was being delivered, which it was in good quantity, checked that the timing was where it should be and that was when I noticed the static timing was ninety degrees out. That got me worried. So I tried to turn the crankshaft in the usual way with a socket on it and it would not budge. This was confusing because clearly the starter motor could do it without getting hot. Off with the timing belt - no point trying to set it to top dead centre, since that couldn't be done - the distributor and then the top of the cam box. My initial thought was something had got jammed on the cam somehow, I just couldn't figure out how. With the top of the cam box off I could see the camshaft hadn't budged at all, normally it would begin to lift as the valve springs underneath push everything about. Nothing was obviously jamming the camshaft so I tried to lift it out from the sprocket end and then discovered it was stuck against the inside of the end plate. Fully unbolted the end plate (you only need to remove the top two bolts to get the top of the cam box off) and the two pieces parted company. I gave everything as much of an inspection as I could and there were no signs of anything being damaged, at least to the naked eye. That's when I decided to put the paper gasket back in and bolt it all together to see if that really was the cause. Sure enough, with the paper gasket back between head and end plate, the camshaft could rotate freely. At this point I still hadn't figured out it might be something more serious so went to the trouble of resetting the timing and putting everything back in. I tested it by hand and everything turned freely, a little too freely in fact, but I wasn't sure why that would be as I'd not encountered this issue before. A crank of the key and now the starter motor sounded normal - probably because it wasn't having to try anywhere near as hard - but no joy. Still plentiful spark and fuel and that's when it dawned on me that I had no compression. Like, no compression AT ALL. Where you'd expect resistance on the compression stroke there isn't anything and, turning the engine slowly by hand there's the twang of a spring and you can feel something clicking through the ratchet so something important in the head has broken. If I'm really lucky, I've snapped some springs and nothing more. If not, I could have bent valves and all sorts. The only way I'll find out is by pulling the head off and that's not happening today. I will do it but this was such a kick in the motivation that I don't know when I'll come back to this. I'm too close to potentially moving house to be pulling the engine apart for a rebuilt and - providing the house move doesn't go wrong yet again - my plan is to pull off the head to inspect it, then put it all back together to keep the parts in one place and just transport the car to the new house. I'm not fixing it this year. I'm not spending any more money, or time, or effort, on this car this year. I will sort this when I'm in a better place to sort it, financially, mentally, and physically. Obviously, I'm pretty narked about the whole thing and feel monumentally daft for not knowing that a paper gasket had to be a paper gasket for engineering purposes. mat_the_cat, wuvvum, timolloyd and 12 others 3 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimo Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Aaargh! Hug. eddyramrod, vulgalour and BlankFrank 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain_70s Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 hours ago, vulgalour said: Obviously, I'm pretty narked about the whole thing and feel monumentally daft for not knowing that a paper gasket had to be a paper gasket for engineering purposes. I'd never had considered it, to be fair. The clearance must be minuscule, surely you could achieve the same effect by tightening the bolts too much? Sounds like a shit bit of design to me... If it makes you feel better I got this gem of a YouTube comment today: GrumpiusMaximus, vulgalour and Split_Pin 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyrew Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Split_Pin, Tadhg Tiogar and vulgalour 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinsMom Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 broadcasting under manager? yes i am old enough to remember that on the Kenny Everett Television Program way back when...... and that is bad news about the Princess and no compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 That is, genuinely, bad luck. I hope when you get to it its not too major. This is one of those occasions when you feel an inanimate object is being ungrateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeKnight Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 hours ago, captain_70s said: I'd never had considered it, to be fair. The clearance must be minuscule, surely you could achieve the same effect by tightening the bolts too much? Sounds like a shit bit of design to me... I've rebuilt many various heads over the years and I was genuinely surprised and confused by this, because the paper gasket is extremely thin. We're talking no more than 0.5mm. So yeah you could've binded it just by over tightening the bolts at that rate! How the hell it managed to skip the belt 90 degrees without making any horrible noises I have absolutely no idea. Engine still spins freely. Compression has just disappeared. If I had to guess I'd say bent valves or snapped springs, but I sure hope not. I have no idea what else could possibly be killing the compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, spartacus said: This is one of those occasions when you feel an inanimate object is being ungrateful. There's no feeling about it, I know it's ungrateful. I'm going to fix it out of pure spite. Asimo, Skizzer, spartacus and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I can’t believe that happened. It’s the O series definitely an interference engine? Pretty sure the closely related S series wasn’t HarmonicCheeseburger and BeEP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardthestag Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 has the cam belt stripped a tooth or 5? The engine didn't start so maybe it is just that valve timing is way out and you would get no compression. Hopefully no bent valves Mate in the late 80s did this with a 2.6 SD1 engine, cam ran tight, momentum from crank stripped belt, valves hit pistons etc. Alas he was 5k rpm on the M25 changing up to 5th gear at the time... Back then 2.6 heads and cam carriers were in plentiful supply in the scrap yards so that was the cheap solution. BTW gaskets and clearance on Stag / triumph slant engines is critical on the water pump cover. Else the top of the pump with touch the cover, strip the gear and fill the sump with little bits of metal, if unlucky then the chain will snap with all manner of nightmares and bent conrods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 TL:DR Engine running, oil leak appears on end plate corner. Tighten bolt, thread stripped out of head. Helicoil stripped thread, find end plate paper gasket is torn, use sealant instead since I haven't a gasket and didn't realise it was critical as a shim Try to start engine, several times, everything is turning together but the initial start must have jumped the belt and caused the problem. No compression. On inspection today, some of the teeth on the belt have rounded off edges which they didn't when installed, so new belt is definitely required. With all the above in mind, I can pinpoint the cause of this to my own ignorance with that gasket. Camshaft bound up against the end plate, timing belt jumped a few teeth, parts met other parts they shouldn't, compression gone. I've already got the head stripped down to a point it can be removed, I'm just waiting on the fluids draining out as fully as possible before I lift it and inspect more properly, and having some lunch, since this isn't the sort of job to be doing on an empty stomach. beko1987, mrbenn, richardthestag and 9 others 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulgalour Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 The results are in. I've had the head off and already reassembled everything loosely so I don't lose any parts. That looks to me like eight bent valves. There's only one mark per valve location on the piston crowns so it looks like the one smacked into the other and the valves got bent out of the way. Usefully that's prevented further damage and hopefully the parts in my other head will sort this head out. Not this year though. Princess is now on SORN and will remain so probably for a few months until I'm in a better position to sort this. We've overcome bigger obstacles than this, so it'll get sorted. When I'm in the new house, I'll take this apart more fully to figure out what's needed exactly. To add to the irritation, two of the new hose clamps I fitted fell apart and had already gone rusty, and the replacement cold air duct hose I ordered was the wrong size, as in I ordered a hose that was specifically listed as 60mm inner diameter, which is what I need, and it's actually 55mm, so doesn't fit, even the external diameter isn't 60mm, being 63mm. You can't stretch the hose because it's a metal spiralised cardboard thing, so the only way to get it to fit was slot one end and put it inside the air box connection. It also doesn't clamp properly in the inner wing clamp that stops it flopping around, so that's another waste of money on an item I couldn't find in a shop and had to order online. This whole saga started with replacing one heater hose that had an age related pinhole in it, after which the head gasket blew, I then got messed around with a custom part for 2 months that, when made, was wrong, and have had a string of incorrect parts and faff because I've had to order stuff online and hope what I'm getting is what's actually being sold. There have been times I've been so frustrated I want to give up and this last mistake hasn't helped with that. At this point the only reason I'm persisting is, I think, stubborness. I'm certainly not doing any of this for the joy of old car ownership, right now there is no joy. dome, paulplom, mercedade and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiC Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 At least no smashed pistons. Keep at it, will be worth it in the end. It all adds to the ultimate satisfaction when it is eventually sorted and drives well. I'm glad I stuck it out on my MGB. Now is my favourite car. The trial and tribulations I had are now mostly forgotten. richardthestag and purplebargeken 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Looks a straightforward enough fix though, even if you don’ t feel particularly motivated right now. I had read about a method to hammer valves straight again... richardthestag and stonedagain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyarddog Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 You're showing an amazing amount of restraint! If it was mine I'd have bludgeoned it to death with a sledgehammer !! BorniteIdentity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardthestag Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 4 hours ago, vulgalour said: The results are in. I've had the head off and already reassembled everything loosely so I don't lose any parts. That looks to me like eight bent valves. There's only one mark per valve location on the piston crowns so it looks like the one smacked into the other and the valves got bent out of the way. Usefully that's prevented further damage and hopefully the parts in my other head will sort this head out. Not this year though. Princess is now on SORN and will remain so probably for a few months until I'm in a better position to sort this. We've overcome bigger obstacles than this, so it'll get sorted. When I'm in the new house, I'll take this apart more fully to figure out what's needed exactly. To add to the irritation, two of the new hose clamps I fitted fell apart and had already gone rusty, and the replacement cold air duct hose I ordered was the wrong size, as in I ordered a hose that was specifically listed as 60mm inner diameter, which is what I need, and it's actually 55mm, so doesn't fit, even the external diameter isn't 60mm, being 63mm. You can't stretch the hose because it's a metal spiralised cardboard thing, so the only way to get it to fit was slot one end and put it inside the air box connection. It also doesn't clamp properly in the inner wing clamp that stops it flopping around, so that's another waste of money on an item I couldn't find in a shop and had to order online. This whole saga started with replacing one heater hose that had an age related pinhole in it, after which the head gasket blew, I then got messed around with a custom part for 2 months that, when made, was wrong, and have had a string of incorrect parts and faff because I've had to order stuff online and hope what I'm getting is what's actually being sold. There have been times I've been so frustrated I want to give up and this last mistake hasn't helped with that. At this point the only reason I'm persisting is, I think, stubborness. I'm certainly not doing any of this for the joy of old car ownership, right now there is no joy. fuck sticks! I feel for you mon brave - but it is fixable for the cost of a set of valves and some lapping in. make sure that all pistons crown - i.e. right to the top of the bore Good luck with house move vulgalour 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Bo11ox Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Can't believe missing out a poxy paper gasket can result in instant engine destruction, what an appalling design. I wonder how many they lost on the production line back in the day due to dozy Brummie bastards forgetting to put one in. BorniteIdentity, cms206, ETCHY and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_the_cat Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Wow. What a piece of bad luck! I've been caught out with gasket thickness before, but not with such consequences. Hats off to your determination! vulgalour 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeKnight Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 hours ago, richardthestag said: make sure that all pistons crown - i.e. right to the top of the bore That's a damn good point. Making sure there isn't any damage to the conrods. Are these wet liner engines? I forget. If it's just a solid block then you don't have to worry about any liners moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Bo11ox Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 dont think theres any liners on these old shonkers, the bores are just machined straight into the block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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