scooters Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Got home last night to the following letter from the buyer of the £250 spares or repair Subaru I sold him earlier in the month: “13th December 2011 Dear #####Ref #### I refer to the above vehicle I purchased from you on Thursday 9th December. I just wanted to let you know that I nearly killed myself in it on Friday 10th December. I got it home on Thursday and went to use it on Friday and the rear drivers side wheel seized totally. The car ground to a total abrupt halt thankfully I was in town driving and doing no real speed or I would have caused a serious accident and possibly killed myself or other road users or pedestrians. I had to get the AA to relay it into a garage who had a look at it yesterday and advise me that the car rear drivers wheel has been messed around with by someone trying to make it passable and is a total death trap and should never have been sold but scrapped. I am most disappointed in you as I took you as an honest man and its obvious either yourself or someone you know has been messing around with the rear wheel to try and make it drivable to get it out of your sight but to put my life at risk and other road users I find totally unbelievable. The garage advise me that the car needs. A new wheel bearing which has collapsed, new rear brake shoes, brake cylinder, rear hub and is going to cost the best part of £1000 to make it roadworthy. I took you on your word that it was the rear shock absorber and thought I would get that fixed not knowing that the entire rear braking and driving mechanism on the drivers side was in a totally dangerous condition and should never have been let out on the road. I just wanted to let you know the above and my total disappointment in the way I was sold this car. I am an honest guy who would never have done that to anyone in my life. I am more than happy to give you the name of the garage the car is in for you to verify all the above.†The punctuation errors are all his Getting this letter really pissed me off last night, fortunately Cavette talked me out of firing off my initial response and I have slept on it. Just to recap – the ad in Gumtree made clear that this car had some serious issues and was sold on a spares or repair basis because it had some T&T and rather than scrap it I had offered it as is in case somone wished to make use of it. Offered for £250 which represents the £210 scrap value and the £40 in car tax. Hell, it even had £30 in the tank! I collected this numptie from the station drove him 2 miles back in the car to my house having spent the morning getting the car ready for him and repairing the boot lock. When I got him home I spent over an hour going over everything I knew was wrong with the car and double checking that he knew what he was getting into and checking if he was sure about this. . He insisted the car was going to be used as a low speed runabout and would be parked with his caravan in Ayrshire. Hell, I even contacted him to make sure he got home OK. This morning I sent him the following message: “received your letter yesterday. You are making some very serious allegations in it that my legal advisor considers defamatory. You better have the evidence to substantiate them or I will sue you for defamation. I suggest that you supply by return the contact information of the mechanic.†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cort16 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 What a wanger. 250 quid, advertised as spares or repairs and he's crying his eyes out because something went wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod/b Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 You shouldn't have replied. End of story. I doubt there's anything that could be described as defamation in that letter if it's only been sent to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexg Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 £250 motor in dangerous faults shock horror. What a total bollock, just ignore him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negative Creep Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Now you've bitten he'll just keep coming back. Block his number and delete all emails without reading them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashmicro Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Back in 95 I sold my YZ350 scrambler to a bloke who I quickly pinged as a pain in the arse. There were one or two faults with it, and I got him to sign a "Sold as seen" declaration, saying he'd been told about the faults and wanted to buy the bike regardless. 3 weeks or so later I got a letter from his solicitor, looking for some money back. I phoned the lawyer, faxed him MY copy of the "Sold as seen" and the lawyer phoned me back saying "Fair one. I'm a solicitor, I'll write to anyone if you pay me £50!" That was the end of it. Maybe some form of words put down on paper for future transactions may be an idea for all of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 You shouldn't have replied. End of story. I doubt there's anything that could be described as defamation in that letter if it's only been sent to you. he ccd it to his mechanic...under Scots law defamation is when you communicate a statement that an individual considers defamatory to at least one other person. This can either be verbally (in England, Slander) or in writing (in England, libel). In Scotland both actions are coverd with the one definition. anyway the broadside had its desired effect: this from him: "sorry for the delay replying just got your message. I am sorry you feel I have been cheeky in my letter. I obviously was quite upset that I literally got hiome with the car went to use it thn next day and got as far as glasgow and iot collapsed on me. The name of the garage is xxxxx. I apologise if you feel I have been over sttrong here. I thought I would have got longer out of it than a day" - there is no record of a garage with the name and location he has given me so I have asked him for a contact number. The defamation is that he alleges that I knowlingly sold him a dangerous car (a criminal offence) and sought to get rid of the car by messing about with it to make it roadworth so I could sell it to an unsuspecting 3rd part for exactly the same amount of money that I would have received had I scrapped it and refunded the tax. Whilst I cannot prove fiscal cost I can force him to apologise in court for the record and pay my legal costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Now you've bitten he'll just keep coming back. Block his number and delete all emails without reading them Now you've bitten he'll just keep coming back. Block his number and delete all emails without reading them I did consider not replying formally but it was quite important to stamp on this as he has accused me of a criminal offence. Had his grumblings been about the condition of the car then I would have ignopred it. As is, my lawyer told me I needed to respond strongly in case he feels the need to involve plod who would turn up at my home or place of business to question and likely arrest me. This would lead to a stressful and expensive fight. Responding back to him as I have means that any plod who does come round to ask questions will see that not only do I refute utterly what he is accusing me of but am prepared to drag the bugger into court and have it rammed down his throat. As I said to Billy last night, from now on I am going to put a significant amount of caveat at the bottom of my adverts and also provide a detailed receipt and disclaimer - I used to do this when selling to somone I didn't know but ran out of printer ribbon which is why I spent so mych time going through the vehicle with him. Billy also made the valid point that if he is just trying it on, if you don't kick back then he will try it on with the next poor bugger he buys a £300 car from who could be an old granny. I do not think this is the case here and the chap vented his frustrations on paper without understanding the consequences of doing so. Over a week has now passed and he is clearly philosophical about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Bo11ox Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I think it was a mistake to launch straight into ‘internet legal speak’ cos it makes you look like the smart-arse geeza he already thinks you are, i.e. it confirms his suspicions. I would have just said ‘I’m very sorry to hear that, however I did sell the car in good faith and remind you that it was sold as spares or repairs for a figure more or less equal to its scrap value’, theres not a lot he can say to that is there. Now he can come back to you with any old half-arsed legal threat like a keyboard warrior. At the end of the day its his problem, but if you wind him up its only going to end up with more hassle for yourself. Just apologise/commiserate and subsequently ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 hmmm.. the messages today and yesterday were by text message - he is hard of hearing and can't really use the phone or this would have been a discussion. After I have confirmed with this mechanic what I am willing to do is to get the car back off the garage it was taken to - weigh it in and give him his £250 back or the mechanic will simply scrap the car, trouser the dosh and bill him anyway. Had he contacted me in a reasonable way rather than accuse me of being a crook then I would have been happy to assist even though there is no obligation on me to do so. I still am but required him to withdraw his accusations before we can proceed. I would offer to go further and if he buys the parts, fit them for him but before we can do that we have to get back to square one again. as I said above, were it a matter of grumbling I would have ignored it but the criminal accusation meant that I needed to act on it. I spoke to my solicitor and that was his advice - "the problem is that if you ignore him you run the risk of him taking his story to the police who are obliged to investigate it as it is one of the more serious clauses in the Road Traffic Act. Therfore you need to pre empt this by demanding that he substantiate these accusations with evidence - if you don't then the police may well think that you are a slippery car dealer ripping off an old giffer rather than a bona fide private individual" was his email to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
254575 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 this is why i scrap every car I finish with, unless its going to someone i can trust. i'd rather take a total loss on sub £1k shite than try and sell to people like this. too many bad experiences. i know this is a little drastic, but you cant put a price on peace of mind or personal safety! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilko220 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 After I have confirmed with this mechanic what I am willing to do is to get the car back off the garage it was taken to - weigh it in and give him his £250 back I wouldn't bother mate. What's the point? The fact is he bought the car as seen and was under no illusions that it needed work. Why should you have to go to the trouble of scrapping it just because he's being a nob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HillmanImp Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Yeah, what bollox said. No point starting to throw around i'll sue you accusations etc. Just tell him to jog on. Luxobarges are us would probably sue an ice cream seller because his 99 melted after he put it in the oven, but there is no need to get overly defensive if you are happy you have done nothing wrong. Tell this chap sorry but no. Its hard to say no when you are genuinly not a rip off merchant, for example Volksy also helped out the peeps he sold the Renault Master camper van to a couple of months ago but if they are the types of goons who actually sue people instead of trying to rectify things normally you could be conscrued to admitting liability. All they need is some spotty 24yr old trainee solicitor with a stupid haircut in a polyester suit who will be happy to ruin everyones day by pushing this thing on with no real basis and rob everyone involved of thier cash until he can afford a Debenhams suit. Some people are just bell-ends. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxobarges_Are_Us Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Contrary to what HI thinks, I agree with Mr B here- I think your solicitor's reaction is a bit over the top. The key question when it comes to investigating a crime is "cui bono?"- "to whose benefit?". You sold it for scrap value + tax cost, therefore there would have been no advantage to pretending that it had been in roadworthy condition, and that's why your ad said "spares or repairs". Consequently I can't see any way that criminal accusations could stick, and that's why I wouldn't bother with defamation, either- the accusation is so daft that it's not worth debating. He sounds like a complete tool. There is no way I would try to help him- wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavcraft Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Having thought about it more I'd now suggest getting hammered and pissing through his letterbox at 3.00am is the best course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod/b Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 This thread's another perfect advert for disposable PAYG SIM cards, if nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 ...I think your solicitor's reaction is a bit over the top. ... I think that Scottish Law is different to proper English Law,Otherwise I'd have been the first to suggest hammering a smaller solicitor over the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggers Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 He's just taking his "buyers remorse" out on you...as said by many of the folks on here, ignore him and move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Contrary to what HI thinks, I agree with Mr B here- I think your solicitor's reaction is a bit over the top. The key question when it comes to investigating a crime is "cui bono?"- "to whose benefit?". You sold it for scrap value + tax cost, therefore there would have been no advantage to pretending that it had been in roadworthy condition, and that's why your ad said "spares or repairs". Consequently I can't see any way that criminal accusations could stick, and that's why I wouldn't bother with defamation, either- the accusation is so daft that it's not worth debating. He sounds like a complete tool. There is no way I would try to help him- wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. cui bono doesn't apply as the alleged crime is a contravention of the Road Traffic Act. There is no fraud or theft as there was no cui bono. My mate's concern was that selling a vehicle which is known to be dangerous for use on the public road, MOT'd or not is a criminal offence and can result in heafty fine and points and a criminal record. as I have stated several times, were his claims just grumbling then I would have ignored it but as he has accused me of a serious criminal offence I needed to act and follow up on it. OK, my lawyer's advice may be over the top but he is the one with the specialist practice in road traffic so I'm happy to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxobarges_Are_Us Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 If the RTA is his area of specialisation then fair enough. IANAL and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSdriver Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Having thought about it more I'd now suggest getting hammered and pissing through his letterbox at 3.00am is the best course. If there was an Autoshite "quote of the year award" this would be up at the top of the contenders list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-M Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 And this, my friends, is why it is rarely worth dealing with the public. It's also why some consider my eBay ads to be offensively rude when it comes to disclaimers. Put the idiots off and you don't need to deal with them. Anything for under £500 that isn't rare or desirable goes straight over the bridge of doom unless it's good enough for me to use. No point in flogging anything with major issues - like wheel bearings - to the public as it ends up being more hassle than it's worth. If it ain't safe, either fix it, send it over the bridge or to a scrappy. I had a geezer try this kind of malarky a few years ago. Old bloke he was. I sold him a truly immaculate Volvo 760 GLE for £1200. I cannot stress enough just how close to perfect this thing was, if there was a blemish on it I couldn't find it, 90k miles, full Volvo main agent history, everything about it was 100%. I'd spent good money keeping it as close to perfect as possible and if it had been entered in a show it would possibly have won it was that nice. Old bloke had it four months and the gearbox oil cooler went. The oil cooler is part of the main rad so what happened was the coolant ended up in the 'box and the ATF in the engine. Autoboxes don't like coolant so it killed the box, a common fault on 760s. Cheeky old sod sent me a bill for £3000 along with a note saying "you're a decent chap, pay up and we'll say no more about it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompei Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 What did you say?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Bo11ox Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 “After some thought, I’ve decided not to pay up or even make a token gesture towards your costs, however we’ll say no more about it nonetheless†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig the Princess Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 “After some thought, I’ve decided not to pay up or even make a token gesture towards your costs, however we’ll say no more about it nonetheless†Sent without a stamp so it costs the guy £1.32 to get the letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sterling Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry to hear about your bad experience Scoots. Seems to me like this idiot is trying it on using the laws of the land against you to pay up. Whilst I'm not up on Scottish law it sounds like you've done the right thing, it may be over the top you are only covering yourself against any further blows this cock might be willing to try. Do you have the original advert? If its clear that you stated that thids car is unroadworthy and will need repairs then this guy doesnt really have much of a defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-M Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 What did you say?!? Sounded very similar to "cough" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporty-shite Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 What did you say?!? Sounded very similar to "cough" Four coughs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reverend Bluejeans Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Unbelieveable. The last time I sold a car to the general public was about 3 years ago. Drove me to tears trying to sell a super clean E36 316i Auto for £500. Never, ever again. Having said that, Scumtree is surely bad news and a mong magnet? I only sold the 316i (and found humanoid buyers) when it was on Autotrader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaTom Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Is there a book out there that is encouraging people to do this kind of thing? Like those memory trainers and "how to avoid points on your licence after an uninsured pissed up shunt etc etc". Probably advertised in VIZ or something? I had this kind of hassle when I sold the BMW. Fella never came back after the 4th attempt to get £400 back (after paying £380). Even saw him in Sainsbury a few weeks later and he made a great effort to avoid me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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