Minister for Shite and Budget Transportation

[warren t claim]

As we are living in a time of austerity with a flat-lining economy I thought we could maybe throw a few ideas about that might make the lives of shiters a bit more easy.

 

As we live in the internet age and we now have a system of policing which heavily relies on ANPR cameras maybe it's time we made a minor change in the way we buy our Road Tax. Wouldn't it be easier if we could not just buy our tax online but print our own tax discs as well? Not only would it be cheaper for the government but we could then buy Tax for a short amount of time, anything from the remainder of the month to a whole year. Obviously paid pro rata.

[mnde]

Not sure about "print your own tax disc" - but I would really like the ability to buy tax for a short amount of time. Or PAYG tax.

 

I feel the current system is inconvenient (for shiters in particular), and stuck in the Neanderthal age.

 

Mark.

[cobblers]

Why even print the disk? They don't serve any purpose, and haven't for some time - It's all ANPR innit. Their argument of "oh, but a plod on foot can just have a look at it and check you are taxed" makes little sense too, since there is no "disk" to show insurance or MOT (Both of which are IMO a hell of a lot more important!)

[Negative Creep]

The easiest way would be to scrap it entirely and put a few pence on fuel. No way of avoiding it, nothing for the DVLA to fuck up, money saved on the admin side, none of this CO2 bollocks. The more you drive to more you pay - easy

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

The easiest way would be to scrap it entirely and put a few pence on fuel. No way of avoiding it, nothing for the DVLA to fuck up, money saved on the admin side, none of this CO2 bollocks. The more you drive to more you pay - easy

 

Exactly. Tax discs are a relic from a bygone era, cost a fortune to administer and, together with the mental insurance company cartel (which at least can be somewhat avoided through classic or trade policies), contribute to the demise of a lot of perfectly good bangers. We should do a bit of shite-lobbying to ensure they forget veg oil and do a cut-price rate on LPG to ensure that the hardcore shitist will still come ahead.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Low value cars = the option of a government backed cheap insurance scheme, third party only, £10 a month.

 

Reduced car tax for older cars. Over 10 years old 30% cheaper, over 20 years old 60% cheaper and free tax for over 25's.

 

Relax emissions requirements for cars over 10 years old.

 

So basically, give a helping hand to those who need a car but struggle to keep it on the road legally.

 

 

 

Howzat 4starters?

[coalnotdole]

The easiest way would be to scrap it entirely and put a few pence on fuel. No way of avoiding it, nothing for the DVLA to fuck up, money saved on the admin side, none of this CO2 bollocks. The more you drive to more you pay - easy

 

This idea has several flaws, Firstly anyone buying fuel for marine use, or to run a lawnmower or generator would then be paying for an extra charge for no reason.

 

It would also mean drivers of older, less fuel efficient vehicles would subsidise the roads for those who can afford (or choose) to drive newer more efficient vehicles, This hardly seems particularly fair.

 

Its also would affect high milage drivers, and would have an impact on those who live in rural areas and people who travel long distances for work.

[dollywobbler]

I can tackle the marine one quite easily. Last time I went to a boat yard, the diesel was considerably more expensive than road diesel! Red diesel already exists for those who use fuel for non-road reasons, so no reason why red unleaded couldn't be made available.

 

I don't buy the older, less fuel efficient arguement either. That's already the case. If you buy a fuel guzzler, you accept that you'll be raising more revenue than others by using it. If you don't like it, don't buy a fuel guzzler! Or spend more time at the wheel of a Rebel than a Scimitar...

 

The only reason I can see not to do it is that DVLA workers will find themselves out of a job. I dread to think how many are employed in the vehicle tax department.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

The easiest way would be to scrap it entirely and put a few pence on fuel. No way of avoiding it, nothing for the DVLA to fuck up, money saved on the admin side, none of this CO2 bollocks. The more you drive to more you pay - easy

 

This idea has several flaws, Firstly anyone buying fuel for marine use, or to run a lawnmower or generator would then be paying for an extra charge for no reason.

 

Come on. There are about 12 people in the above categories (ok, a few more for marine use, but still a tiny amount compared to motorists) to begin with, and the fuel they are currently buying is already taxed to buggery. AFAIK, under EU regulations, red diesel is not allowed for marine use, but there can be some other form of discount/rebate/whatever.

 

It would also mean drivers of older, less fuel efficient vehicles would subsidise the roads for those who can afford (or choose) to drive newer more efficient vehicles, This hardly seems particularly fair.

 

That's PRECISELY what we are doing now...funding the roads (and even the con charge down in the smoke) so that fashion victims can use them for free in their NOxious diesel FIAT 500s and Binis

[coalnotdole]

I can tackle the marine one quite easily. Last time I went to a boat yard, the diesel was considerably more expensive than road diesel! Red diesel already exists for those who use fuel for non-road reasons, so no reason why red unleaded couldn't be made available.

 

I don't buy the older, less fuel efficient arguement either. That's already the case. If you buy a fuel guzzler, you accept that you'll be raising more revenue than others by using it. If you don't like it, don't buy a fuel guzzler! Or spend more time at the wheel of a Rebel than a Scimitar...

 

 

I'm simply pointing out that bunging a few pence on the price of fuel is not a straightforward fix. Whos going to create these new red unleaded pumps? Oil companies? It may not seem like a major issue to you lot. But I know many people who regularly buy fuel for use other uses and it would affect them.

 

You've also still completely ignored the increased cost to businesses and individuals who do high milages. Adding VED to fuel instead of charging per vehicle would probably put half the haulage industry on the dole given the amount of fuel they must get through. It would also mean domestic hauliers would loose out to those coming across from the continent with tanks full of lower priced fuel - this is already happening now. Even an increase of of a couple of pence a is bound to have an effect.

 

I've no particular personal interest in this debate, If the cost of fuel gets too high i'll switch to LPG or a different engine, but thats not exactly a solution everyone can use.

[coalnotdole]

 

That's PRECISELY what we are doing now...funding the roads (and even the con charge down in the smoke) so that fashion victims can use them for free in their NOxious diesel FIAT 500s and Binis

 

I agree its wrong for some 500BiniPoloBulemotion POS to be tax free, purely on some arbitrary carbon measurements. But I think thats got more to do with governments trying to be seen to be green than it has with a real interest in economical vehicles based on actual milages travelled.

[warren t claim]

We already have tax free petrol available in most private airfields. Well over 100 octane and leaded as well.

[cms206]

You've also still completely ignored the increased cost to businesses and individuals who do high milages. Adding VED to fuel instead of charging per vehicle would probably put half the haulage industry on the dole given the amount of fuel they must get through.

 

 

Not just the haulage industry, but the bus industry as well. I drive a 1990 Plaxton Paramount bodied Volvo B10M at work every day. It's fitted with a 9.6 litre turbocharged diesel engine and a 5-speed ZF automatic transmission, it weighs 12700kg unladen and costs £500 a year to tax.

 

Drivers are responsible for fuelling their own vehicles, and in a typical week (ie, only schools plus a run to the fuel station on a Friday morning) it'll use about 120 litres of diesel. This week's been a busy week, and I've used about 140 litres since Wednesday morning. The boss reckons that it's averaging about 5.5-6mpg, the much lighter Alexander bodied examples are getting nearer 8mpg. As the vehicles only do private hires and contracted school work for the local authority we are also not liable for fuel duty rebate... it's simply unsustainable.

 

We're a small outfit with about 20 vehicles and we're struggling, yet nothing is being done, and I can think of at least half a dozen local examples of operators who have gone to the wall purely because of fuel costs.

 

 

I'm in favour of a government budget car insurance scheme for shiteists in general, but the road tax situation I think is a necessary evil for the time being.

[eddyramrod]

Low value cars = the option of a government backed cheap insurance scheme, third party only, £10 a month.

 

Reduced car tax for older cars. Over 10 years old 30% cheaper, over 20 years old 60% cheaper and free tax for over 25's.

 

Relax emissions requirements for cars over 10 years old.

 

So basically, give a helping hand to those who need a car but struggle to keep it on the road legally.

 

 

 

Howzat 4starters?

 

That'll never happen. Why? Because it would be an obvious sign of a government elected by the people, actually listening to them and then taking a correct decision based on what it heard. So it'll never happen, ever.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

buses

 

What's the situation with alternative fuels for them? Can you switch to CNG or summat?

 

What about veg oil for the older ones?

[Felly Magic]

A lot of older buses hate bioderv. It destroys the fuel pumps, especially on the 9.6 litre Volvos and on any '3' series Scania. FDR has been slashed for the bus industry from next April too by 20%. The cost of converting buses & coaches to gas is astronomical, and special fuelling stations need to be set up. I remember a batch of fomer Park & hide buses from Chester being for sale for over 4 years, before the dealer ended up getting them converted to run on diesel. These buses ended up in the dealers fleet, mainly in Yorkshire (Arriva).

[cms206]

buses

 

What's the situation with alternative fuels for them? Can you switch to CNG or summat?

 

What about veg oil for the older ones?

 

 

CNG is a nightmare to deal with, and until very recently no-one seems to have sucessfully made them work on a large scale. IIRC it also requires lots of engine modifications to what is effectively a big diesel car engine. Hydrogen has been tried, but the latest examples tend to be diesel/electric hybrids. Biodiesel has it's problems too, I believe Stagecoach locally have had no end of bother with converted and later factory-built MANs built to run on it.

 

 

Veg has the same limitations as cars - most buses physically won't run it, and with upwards of £1500 for a fuel pump it can actually be cheaper to just buy another complete engine if you try it and it goes wrong. Cummins in particular want upwards of £2500 for a brand new 5.9-litre 6BT (with a £3500 surcharge!), so the cheap option is to actually buy a Ford Cargo/DAF 45/Leyland Roadrunner, whip the engine out, rebuild to bus spec using the good bits of the duff engine and weigh in the rest.

[scaryoldcortina]

Ok, I looked at some figures (here) which are a couple of years out of date, but the proportions should be roughly the same. Including VAT, the treasury took almost 32 billion in fuel duty, and just over 5 billion in VED. To replace this in fuel tax would add 15% to the duty, translating to around 7% on the pump price. DVLA costs a mere half billion a year to run and raises most if not all of that back in revenue (fines, sales, fees) so the saving from abolishing just the VED department is probably negligable.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

CNG is a nightmare to deal with, and until very recently no-one seems to have sucessfully made them work on a large scale.

 

I am definitely not an expert, but I know I've been to quite a few cities with large fleets of buses on CNG. Paris and Athens immediately come to mind as their gas buses have special liveries to advertise the fact.

[peter9000uk]

California have or used to have (moved back 14 years ago) a common sense way of doing it.

 

The amount you pay for your yearly tags is calculated based on the ange and list price of the vehicle. I used to pay $17/yeat for my '69 440 Roadrunner.

Their way of thinking was, you have an expensive car then you can afford to pay more for the road tax!

 

It wouldn't work here because it involves common sense.

[eddyramrod]

I used to pay $17/yeat for my '69 440 Roadrunner.

 

Now that's what I call a bargain!

[Albert Ross]

A Tenner a month for insurance? Why should I pay more than I do already?

[Cavcraft]

A lot of older buses hate bioderv. It destroys the fuel pumps, especially on the 9.6 litre Volvos and on any '3' series Scania. FDR has been slashed for the bus industry from next April too by 20%. The cost of converting buses & coaches to gas is astronomical, and special fuelling stations need to be set up. I remember a batch of fomer Park & hide buses from Chester being for sale for over 4 years, before the dealer ended up getting them converted to run on diesel. These buses ended up in the dealers fleet, mainly in Yorkshire (Arriva).

 

They made a huge fuss of those buses when they first got them 'This bus runs on envirnmentally friendly fuel' (or some such blurb) splashed all over them.

 

I'm not overly keen on the idea of adding RFL to fuel prices. It's easy enough for the thieving bastards to hike the price of a litre up as it is, give them free reign to add road tax into the equation and everytime they fancy a new war somewhere or chuck another few thousand on the dole the price will rise on a weekly basis.

[Andrew353w]

Back onto topic for a second, I MOTed my Lada yesterday and the MOT certificate (and the word "certificate" is hardly appropriate!) was printed on ordinary A4 paper, with no safety features, sticker for my windscreen or anything to indicate its importance in certifying my car to be roadworthy. The latest version could be knocked out by anyone with a printer, including me! The tester said that the new ones save VOSA money and as all checks are ANPR now, the certificate's not as important as it was when all car tax was bought in the Post Office (happy days...)

 

[Cavcraft]

Yes, but if you're knackered car won't pass an MOT and you need tax to leave it parked outside those cert's will be GR8!

[Rocket88]

Over here [Jersey] we binned annual road tax about 12 years ago. Then, for an average sized car, it was about £20 per year, and fuel was about half the UK price. Fuel is now almost the same price [about 10p cheaper] Instead of a tax disc we display a windscreen disc issued by your insurance company. If the UK Government introduced the same scheme, you'd be paying about £3 per litre .

Say the average price of road tax is £250 per year at the moment, that would buy you, at £3 a litre, approx 83 litrs [18.3 gallons] at 35 mpg that would give you 640 miles............as they say in the States, you do the math!

[chaseracer]

buses

 

What's the situation with alternative fuels for them? Can you switch to CNG or summat?

 

What about veg oil for the older ones?

Diesel/electric hybrids in Brum now, I noticed with some surprise yesterday...

[Guest]

The whole tax disc thing is an absolute shambles, I hate almost everything about it. If you can't get it online, you have to turn up at the Post Office with some documents and have some dozy old bint stare at them as if they're the most important thing ever, particularly annoying if you're trying to tax it on a trade policy or something as some won't do it (even though it's allowed) and around here there isn't a single place open on a Sunday to do it. Clue - if you don't have insurance and/or the logbook, what possible interest would you have in buying tax for it? And who loses out if you manage to get it?

 

Then if it's about the 20th of the month you have to decide whether you're going to either wait or essentially lose almost a month's worth of tax, because they can't just calculate how many days you're actually getting, or give you a tax disc which doesn't finish on the end of the month. But because they've made it so they all finish on month ends, there'll be all these other people in the queue trying to get road tax and it'll take ages because the coffin-dodger on the counter insists on spending 5 minutes reading every bit of every document. And you can't buy them in any good lengths, no cheeky "3 month" option to tide you over if you're skint, it's 6 or 12 months and I get the impression they don't like to give you the 6 month ones just on account of the ridiculous £10 or so premium they charge for them.

 

Anyway, all being well you're given your stupid paper disc, which doesn't need to exist at all, but it provides a nice income for people who break into cars and steal them to cash them in (yes, this happens - you don't have to be the registered keeper). Meanwhile the whole reminders scenario is operated by post (POST!) with no other options available like a quick Email, there's no option to have a Direct Debit in place (I'm not even on about spreading the costs here, just having a payment come out every 6/12 months and a tax disc turn up) and you've got to hope that your annual MOT is spaced far away enough from the tax that it'll turn up on their online system in time for you to avoid the whole Post Office scenario.

 

I always imagine that the road tax setup was devised by the same person who insisted that the new Photocard-style driving licences had to be accompanied by a paper "counterpart" to be a complete document - WHAT'S THE POINT THEN?

[retrogeezer]

A simple 'classic car' tax scheme would be very easy to set up. A cheap 'weekend only' tax disc for those that only use a car for car shows on a sunday. Just make it a diferent colour and £25 for a year or something.

 

Or even a limited mileage one, just prove your annual mileage with your MOT certificate (now easily forged granted!)

[andrew e]

Those new MOT's give you the chance to go from A4 to A5 size in one paper cut, there by removing any advisory evidence on the right... keep em peeled for half size MOT's with your new purchase...