Bus Shite

[MorrisItalSLX]

If you think an articulated Leyland National is interesting, you may be very interested in the only articulated Leyland Tiger in the world.

[Inspector Morose]

When is a Leyland National not a Leyland National?  Well, this is, sort of. It's a Leyland B21, one of 25 delivered to Brussels and fitted with Jonckheere bus bodies around 1978. 

The B21 was a National for those overseas customers who wanted a proper bus with a proper chassis with their own choice of engine and their own choice of gearbox. A development of the C27 underframe concept National (oh yes, there's an ECW bodied National out there in the wild, don't you know); this took the running units and mounted them in a Bristol designed (and quite RE-like) chassis frame, making it the penultimate Bristol designed bus. Never proposed to be a big seller, it became reasonably popular in Australia, powered by a GM engine coupled to an Alison gearbox. The Belgian ones were Voith gearboxed, but for the engine, I'm not entirely sure; it is possible they were 510 powered, making these the only 510/Voith combination that I know of.

A small batch were sold to Northern Ireland, and these migrated over to Ipswich later in life to join the only B21s sold to a British operator (part of a failed order for Tel Aviv). Both were bodied by Alexander (Belfast) with two differing styles. 

 

[MorrisItalSLX]

Enjoy this Leyland B21 with a very unflattering body by Pressed Metal Corporation (then owned by Leyland Australia) from one of my local bus companies Nowra Coaches.

[Christine]

GCN ..you know the story  !    Alexander fleetline  M&D    £10  each     

 

[Metal Guru]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

GCN ..you know the story  !    Alexander fleetline  M&D    £10  each     

 

I don’t remember M&D buses ever being red. I vaguely remember the all green, but mostly the dark green / custard colour scheme during the 60s and 70s. 

[Christine]

M&D did a deal with Northern General , aquired  them still in their  red livery ,and  pressed  into service straight away as there was a shortage of green paint  ...

[Christine]

M&D   Ancillary  vehicle !   Tenner...

[N19]

On 22/05/2026 at 10:32, dollywobbler said:

The original UK trials for them were with South Yorkshire PTE I think? Seem to recall Sheffield was the first home.

SYPTE had a series of bendy Nationals, in the early 80s, which didn't last long - then a later batch of C-reg bendies which I think remained in service until 2000 .They definitely ran between the city and Meadowhell for a while.

[busmansholiday]

On 28/05/2026 at 11:21, N19 said:

SYPTE had a series of bendy Nationals, in the early 80s, which didn't last long - then a later batch of C-reg bendies which I think remained in service until 2000 .They definitely ran between the city and Meadowhell for a while.

If I can be arsed to check the exact dates (and I probably cannot), or dig out pics,  SYPTE tried a Danish built Leyland DAB left hand drive articulated single decker 50 years ago. They used this on a free service and subsequently tried a Volvo and a MAN (I have one of the few pics of the latter), but not in service. This resulted in an order for MAN artics and the Roe (using National bits) bodies on the Leyland DAB chassis.

 

[busmansholiday]

Here you go, 1977 doesn't seem 49 years ago since I took these.

 

The original demonstrater,

(bonus EM1 electric loco)

and the MAN.

 

 

(bonus AEC Swift/ Park Royal).

[Inspector Morose]

Those who know me, know of a few photos of me driving various Nationals at what could only be described as an alarming angle.

This was a result of the design of the original National; the suppleness of the rolling-lobe air suspension allowed for good ride quality, but handling and body control suffered somewhat. On the redesign for the phase 2 National, announced in 1976, an anti-roll bar was fitted to the front axle to lessen the leaning.

The unintentional consequence of this was that it was now possible to get a National to balance on three(*) wheels, a la Citroen.
Of course, I had to do it and photograph the results, ex-Bristol phase 2 KHT118P being the demonstrator this time

[captain_70s]

Basically a Lotus Cortina.

[SilverMachine]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

thats quite a lean for what looks like not much of a steering angle! any idea what sort of speed you were doing?  its very impressive though im not sure passengers would be too happy- or still seated lol

[Inspector Morose]

27 minutes ago, SilverMachine said:

thats quite a lean for what looks like not much of a steering angle! any idea what sort of speed you were doing?  its very impressive though im not sure passengers would be too happy- or still seated lol

Not a great speed, probably only around 15-20ish, but with a bit of brake to add to the flourish! This photo was taken about 35 years ago, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact details!

I did it twice for photos - we were on an industrial estate with plenty of low-speed 'play' area. I remember getting the windows to open and the engine flaps to do likewise on this one.

[SilverMachine]

18 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

Not a great speed, probably only around 15-20ish, but with a bit of brake to add to the flourish! This photo was taken about 35 years ago, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact details!

I did it twice for photos - we were on an industrial estate with plenty of low-speed 'play' area. I remember getting the windows to open and the engine flaps to do likewise on this one.

i do remember the nationals being rather rattly round here, although i loved there transmission? whine i guess it was transmission anyway lol

[busmansholiday]

3 hours ago, captain_70s said:

Basically a Lotus Cortina.

Lotus built decent engines and the Cortina was a decent car.

 

The National was the exact opposite!!!!

[busmansholiday]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Not a great speed, probably only around 15-20ish, but with a bit of brake to add to the flourish! This photo was taken about 35 years ago, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact details!

I did it twice for photos - we were on an industrial estate with plenty of low-speed 'play' area. I remember getting the windows to open and the engine flaps to do likewise on this one.

48 years ago since I first drove one, I'd nearly wrapped one around a tree 35 years ago ...

[Inspector Morose]

40 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

48 years ago since I first drove one, I'd nearly wrapped one around a tree 35 years ago ...

Meh, I only managed to write two off (one not my fault, as I got hit by a stolen car). I did manage to write a bus garage off, though...

[busmansholiday]

Presumably the story to the insurance company was slightly*different to the actual events........

[vtec-e]

I was visiting Stowe school yesterday to watch some cricket, and unexpectedly found this AEC hiding in the bushes!

If I was better at photo editing, I'm sure I could have placed it with the impressive school building and George I on his horse as a background.

Also spotted in the public car park amongst all the moderns was a lovely green Morris 1000 traveller, no photo unfortunately.

 

[Metal Guru]

2 hours ago, vtec-e said:

I was visiting Stowe school yesterday to watch some cricket, and unexpectedly found this AEC hiding in the bushes!

If I was better at photo editing, I'm sure I could have placed it with the impressive school building and George I on his horse as a background.

Also spotted in the public car park amongst all the moderns was a lovely green Morris 1000 traveller, no photo unfortunately.

 

Should be impressive at £54k per year per pupil. Cheaper than Eton though ( £63k).

[Remspoor]

21 hours ago, Metal Guru said:

Should be impressive at £54k per year per pupil. Cheaper than Eton though ( £63k).

Plus VAT🤣

[Metal Guru]

4 hours ago, Remspoor said:

Plus VAT🤣

That was with VAT. About £15k per term x3 , plus 20%.

[Inspector Morose]

We didn't really need JOV746P. We didn't really have any great use for it, but when the opportunity to buy one of the ex-WMPTE Ailsas came along, we paid Trailways the money and drove it home!
Metrowest's only double deck bus was an indulgence, pure and simple. This, plus the idea of using an ex-West Midlands bus in competition against them, was a great weeze in itself; there was little love lost between the two companies, and after them getting us banned off a route for a fortnight, any way of metaphorically sticking two fingers up back at them sounded a good idea in our eyes.

After quickly repainting the red stripe of Trailways green, it was put to work, but eventually, we repainted it into our full livery and slowly undid some of the modifications undertaken to it by previous operators. One thing we didn't change back was the seating. During Trailways ownership, it was fully retrimmed using Routemaster moquette; the idea of subjecting our customers to red vinyl was taking originality a step too far.
It was a bit of a handful to operate as we were more used to the niceties of Nationals, but we learned its foibles over time, and it became a fairly reliable member of the fleet. Its 79-seat capacity came in useful as traffic on certain routes built up over time.

After our sale to WMT, the upper management there decreed it non-standard and had to go. WMTs policy was scrap only, and this was almost the fate of JOV746P. I knew that Black Prince of Morley, near Leeds, was on the lookout for Ailsas and had amassed a number of ex-WMPTE examples of their own. Calls were made, assurances given, and managers convinced, and JOV746P escaped the clutches of WMT once again for a new life up north.
Once there, it was painted into a version of their livery and settled right in amongst its former West Midlands compatriots. In 1994, it was de-roofed but was repaired for further service, using the roof from former stablemate JOV775P. 

It lasted until late 1996 when it was finally sold for scrap at just over 20 years old.  Viewed through the rose-tint of nostalgia, we tend to think that the buses (or anything else for that matter) were better and lasted longer than the 'modern day' equivalents. Better? Maybe, but it's interesting to note that 20-plus-year-old Wrights bodied Volvo B7s and Alexander bodied Dennis Tridents (Cheap plastic rubbish. They'll never last) are only just leaving the West Midlands fleet, some going on to further service elsewhere at an age when JOV746P was long reduced to a pile of twisted metal and broken fibreglass

[Yoss]

10 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

 During Trailways ownership, it was fully retrimmed using Routemaster moquette; the idea of subjecting our customers to reed vinyl was taking originality a step too far.

 

You can't say that and then not show us! That's just teasing. 

[Inspector Morose]

8 hours ago, Yoss said:

You can't say that and then not show us! That's just teasing. 

Sadly, I didn't photograph the inside, but it certainly brightened up the interior somewhat. Trailways retrimmed both JOV746P and JOV786P as part of a light refurbishment in the early 90s.

JOV786P went on to become a film location diner, lasting until 2006 when it was deroofed and scrapped.

[Inspector Morose]

I've been thinking about the age of buses when they are consigned for scrap. This RE:

Is former Southern National HDV628E. New in 1967, it was sold for further service, to Northern Bus, in 1989, when it was 22 years old. It's seen here sometime around 1990 or 91 and even then, looked positively ancient, with its early ECW 'flat front' body. Its demise in 1991 was rather unusual as it ran over an RSJ that had fallen off a lorry. The structural steel member launched itself up through the floor of HDV and into the saloon, causing considerable damage along the way. Considered too damaged to repair (Northern Bus seemed to have a very low tolerance for damage when deciding the fate of some historic members of their fleet, but I digress). It was used for spares to help rebuild former Bristol RHT141G, then unceremoniously scrapped.

RHT141G  was another flat front RE that had gained celebrity status at Bristol and was repainted back into its original livery before being involved in a collision in 1991, demolishing the front of the bus.

Northern Bus bought the damaged bus and used the front of HDV to repair the accident damage. It was used until 1994, when this popular bus was itself sent for scrap.

 

Amazingly, a photo exists of both RHT141G and HDV628E together at the Taunton area 'farewell to the RE' running day in 1987.

A little over four years after this photo was taken, the front of the bus on the left was being worn by the bus on the right.

[quicksilver]

Topical that you should mention that as I've just been helping to identify some scrap coaches in the background of an old photo. One of them was a 1979 Ford R-series that was taken out of service for scrap in 1991 after barely managing 12 years on the road, but the same operator carried on running similar but older coaches for years afterwards and even bought a couple more when they were already 20 years old. The lifespan of a coach seemed to be a lot more variable back then with some consigned to scrap very early on and others of the same type living for 20 years or more. I guess, just like the cars of that era, it all depended on the build quality of that particular vehicle and how well it was looked after.

[Zelandeth]

I think some of the relatively short seeming lives probably can just be accounted for by how quickly technology was marching along at the time.

20 years ago, a 20 year old vehicle would have felt far more ancient from a layman or most driver's perspective than a 20 year old one now.

My coach that took me to school was a 76 R plate Y Series Bedford with a Duple Dominant II body (which sadly had lost most of its brightwork by then), which was 26 years old at the time.  It was absolutely worlds apart from relatively current fleet being operated on the same commercial corridor (Stagecoach Bluebird 305).  Which now would all be 30 odd years old.  Honestly the only things you'd really miss as a passenger compared to a modern coach would probably be USB charging sockets and air conditioning (like it ever works on local services anyway!).  As a driver you'd have far less things nagging you and actual dials on the dash in front of you rather than a screen...but on the road it would feel pretty normal.  Just with far more compliant suspension than what you're used to these days.  We're talking late 90s Volvo B10M Jonkheeres - can't quite remember the model - Mistral?

The old Bedford though was worlds apart.  Gearbox you needed an atlas to navigate, no synchro on first or second (no idea if by design or just the fact it had been around the clock), and if you were going north of 50mph you really knew about it.  Any hill you couldn't take a good run at was bad news.  Volvo you got in, pushed start, pushed D on the gear selector and off you went, basically driving everywhere on the 100kph limiter without a care in the world aside from the bloody passengers and endless traffic jams around Dyce.

Likewise the Bedford would have been streets ahead of what would have been 20 years old when it was new which would have almost definitely had a full crash box, probably no power steering and the driver would have considered himself lucky to have a heater.

Will say that though, that old Bedford did have a bloody good heater!

If it weren't for DDA and LEZ compliance killing off a lot of stuff there really wouldn't be huge incentive I imagine especially for smaller operators to modernise anywhere near as quickly as there was historically.

[Inspector Morose]

Just to reinforce the above statement, this was about 23 years old when this photo was taken _around 91-92ish), and it looked positively archaic, even then.

To put it into perspective, this was about the same age as some of the National Express West Midlands Wright Gemini bodied Volvos now being withdrawn.