Bus Shite

[RoadworkUK]

That Partridge Fleetline was fun to see. Based fairly locally (Hadleigh, Suffolk) to here, they used to run ex-London DMSs on my school bus route.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

The beauty of basing myself in Sheffield bus station was that other operators used to come in, from time to time, on long distance services from far-flung places like Macclesfield or, in this case, Hanley. Here a PMT (no sniggering in the back) Optare Delta is loading up at the lower part of Sheffield bus station for its return journey back to the Potteries.
Potteries Motor Traction, to give it its full title, had by this time been acquired by the juggernaut that was First bus. Only a short time later, the colourful and individual livery was obliterated by a corporate hue.

Quite an early one, that! I've got an Optare brochure with all the classics of the era! 👍 👍 👍 😎 😎 😎 

[Inspector Morose]

Partridge were big purchasers of the ex-WMPTE ‘jumbos’, often acting as a dealer for a good number. WMPTE also used the jumbos as a part ex with Ensign for DMSs, as you said, a type quite favoured by Partidge later on.

Cleareux(?) also bought the WMPTE Foden at auction by mistake, thinking he was bidding on another Fleetline. He soon offloaded it to a mate (Jack Brewster who ran Goldsmiths of Sicklesmere) who managed to get a few weeks worth of work out of it before it inevitably threw its reduction gears. It was then parked up on the front for the next 10 years.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Before and after.

Was it really over 30 years ago when I took these photos? Time flies and all that. Anyway, These photos are of the same bus, C141SPB, A Leyland Tiger. At the time, Midland Red North had a shortfall of modern(ish) buses on their books and with a distinct lack of cash to go out and buy a load of brand new ones, a bit of lateral thinking had to be done.

Luckily, another of the companies owned by British Bus (who owned MRN at the time) had a surplus of relatively modern coaches. Most of these had a high floor and relatively heavy bodies by Berkhof of the Netherlands and were most unsuited to running around housing estates. Luckily the chassis and the body of buses and coaches were still built as two separate items and the Leyland Tiger chassis was well known and understood by the engineers at Cannock.

A plan was formed that the coaches would be 'sold' to Midland Red North who would have the bodies removed and scrapped whereupon new bodies by British Bus's pet bodybuilder, East Lancashire Coachbuilders of Blackburn, would be built upon the refurbished chassis. No more surplus coaches and a relatively modern fleet for MRN at a modest cost.

The coaches were duly towed up to Cannock for inspection and a local scrap merchant was called in to remove the body using the tried and tested cutting torch. The chassis would then be overhauled and painted then sent north for its new bus body.

I was at Cannock, overseeing the repaint of Walsall trolleybus 862 at the time and so was allowed to wander into the yard to take a shot or two of the soon to be no more, Dutch body on C141. Just behind C141 was a Tiger chassis that had already been stripped of its former body and was awaiting movement up north to East Lancs.

A few years later, I was in Wolverhampton and the very same C141SPB appeared in my viewfinder, looking rather different from the last time I saw it.

 

 

thats really quite interesting! especially given how relatively new those coach bodies would of been!

I wonder how the driving dynamics of them where before and after the body swap, since I imagine with the bus body the centre of gravity would of been a bit lower and things a bit lighter? (I imagine in coach form they would of had fairly high speed running gear/diff did that remain with the bus bodies?)

its a shame youtube/ @dollywobbler style reviews where not a thing then, a back to back comparison video would of been really interesting  

I am also curious how they went about cutting up the bodies since normally when you do that sort of thing your not really trying to save anything

but given the chassis where to be rebodied I imagine they would have had to have been careful not to gas axe a main wiring loom in half or something?

[83C]

4 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Before and after.

Was it really over 30 years ago when I took these photos? Time flies and all that. Anyway, These photos are of the same bus, C141SPB, A Leyland Tiger. At the time, Midland Red North had a shortfall of modern(ish) buses on their books and with a distinct lack of cash to go out and buy a load of brand new ones, a bit of lateral thinking had to be done.

Luckily, another of the companies owned by British Bus (who owned MRN at the time) had a surplus of relatively modern coaches. Most of these had a high floor and relatively heavy bodies by Berkhof of the Netherlands and were most unsuited to running around housing estates. Luckily the chassis and the body of buses and coaches were still built as two separate items and the Leyland Tiger chassis was well known and understood by the engineers at Cannock.

A plan was formed that the coaches would be 'sold' to Midland Red North who would have the bodies removed and scrapped whereupon new bodies by British Bus's pet bodybuilder, East Lancashire Coachbuilders of Blackburn, would be built upon the refurbished chassis. No more surplus coaches and a relatively modern fleet for MRN at a modest cost.

The coaches were duly towed up to Cannock for inspection and a local scrap merchant was called in to remove the body using the tried and tested cutting torch. The chassis would then be overhauled and painted then sent north for its new bus body.

I was at Cannock, overseeing the repaint of Walsall trolleybus 862 at the time and so was allowed to wander into the yard to take a shot or two of the soon to be no more, Dutch body on C141. Just behind C141 was a Tiger chassis that had already been stripped of its former body and was awaiting movement up north to East Lancs.

A few years later, I was in Wolverhampton and the very same C141SPB appeared in my viewfinder, looking rather different from the last time I saw it.

Ooh, I know a bit about this sort of thing, given one particular member of my own fleet:

There were around 40 Tigers converted in all for MRN with EL2000 bodies, B105 KPF had the slightly earlier Berkhof Everest 370 body with express doors whilst C141 SPB had a plug door. The first ones converted (TPC-X examples) were 11m chassis and had previously been bodied by ECW, most of the later ones were 12m and whilst most had the Berkhof body, some (such as C262 SPC) had Duple or Plaxton bodies prior to rebodying. 

I’ve driven a few of the rebodies, B102/105/109 KPF and C262 SPC. They’re great things to drive, loads of go and they handle pretty well. 

I’ve also driven C142 SPB:

Lovely but the height and the particularly generous luggage space (specified for airlink services) meant it rolled a bit in corners, it was very obvious that plenty of weight was high up in the body. 

So far as I know B105 KPF is now the sole survivor of the MRN rebodies, I tried tracking them all down a couple of years ago and this is where I got to:

Leyland Tiger DP49F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1710 TPC 101X - Scrapped 2005

Leyland Tiger B51F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1711 WPH 121Y - Scrapped 2002

Leyland Tiger B55F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1712 TPC 102X - Exported to Zambia 2008

Leyland Tiger DP49F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1713 TPC 103X - Unknown Showing as untaxed from 2006 on DVLA
1714 TPC 104X - Scrapped 2007


Leyland Tiger B51F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1715 WPH 125Y - Unknown Showing as untaxed from 2008 on DVLA
1716 WPH 126Y - Unknown, last known operator Islwyn Borough Transport. Showing as untaxed from 2007 on DVLA

Leyland Tiger DP51F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1717 TPC 107X - Unknown Showing as untaxed from 2003 on DVLA

Leyland Tiger B51F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1718 TPC 114X - Scrapped 2008
1719 WPH 139Y - Scrapped 2010
1720 WPH 122Y - Exported to South Africa 2003 

Leyland Tiger B61F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1721 C141 SPB - Scrapped 2013
1722 B102 KPF - Scrapped date unknown
1723 B103 KPF - Scrapped 2012
1724 B104 KPF - Unknown, No details held by DVLA
1725 B105 KPF - Preserved
1726 C262 SPC - Scrapped 2012
1727 B107 KPF - Destroyed in depot fire, Stafford 1992
1728 B108 KPF - Unknown, passed to Autocar Bus & Coach Services in 2004. Showing as untaxed from 2008 on DVLA
1729 B109 KPF - Scrapped date unknown
1730 YPJ 207Y - Unknown, passed to Morrow, Glasgow in 2003. Showing as untaxed from 2014 on DVLA
1733 LTS 93X - Unknown, re-registered LUI 6018 & passed to unknown dealer 2010. Showing as untaxed from 2012 on DVLA

Leyland Tiger B55F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1735 DJN 25X - Donated to Centre for Alternative Technology, Machynlleth, 2000. Scrapped 20??. 
1737 UJN 430Y - Scrapped 2010 
1738 WPH 118Y - Scrapped 2012

Leyland Tiger B61F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1740 AAX 590A - Scrapped 2012

Leyland Tiger B55F East Lancashire Coach Builders EL2000
1742 A42 SMA - Scrapped 2007
1743 WPH 123Y - Unknown Showing as untaxed from 2003 on DVLA

Its a pretty safe bet the ones showing as untaxed were turned into bean tins long ago, 1722 & 1729 are certainly gone as I have significant amounts of parts from them in store.

[83C]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

I wonder how the driving dynamics of them where before and after the body swap, since I imagine with the bus body the centre of gravity would of been a bit lower and things a bit lighter? (I imagine in coach form they would of had fairly high speed running gear/diff did that remain with the bus bodies?)

its a shame youtube/ @dollywobbler style reviews where not a thing then, a back to back comparison video would of been really interesting  

The Berkhof Everest bodied machines were nice to drive, but rolled in the bends due to the height. Well insulated and quiet though. The mechanicals were unaltered in the conversion to bus body, so you had a Tiger 245 or 260 chassis specified for a heavy coach body fitted with a lightweight bus body - as you can imagine, performance was ‘brisk’ and the handling was considerably improved. Braking however took a delicate touch as there wasn’t much between ‘gentle’ and ‘oh fuck that’s a bit sharp’. By the time I got to drive the rebodies the old Romatic speed limiters were all broken/removed, so off the clock speeds were easy to attain. 

1725 at 62mph feels very much like it is just ambling along, fairly low revs for the speed. 

[cms206]

YPJ 207Y ended it's days at Abbey Coaches in Thorliebank, still in Morrow livery. We were offered it at DJ International for peanuts but Dick wasn't keen due to the scarcity of Tiger parts by that point.

Likelyhood is it was scrapped, either by Barry Devlin, M8 Recovery or Campbell Commercials in Alexandria.

[83C]

Here’s a good photo of the process I’ve just found on Flickr, taken during the open day at Cannock in 1992.

Right to left: DJN 25X/1735 in the process of having its ECW body removed. Some of the coaches saw service with MRN before rebodying, 1735 had been allocated to the Cambrian area. 

B107 KPF/1727 represents the ‘chassis only’ stage. However by this point it had already been rebodied and then burnt out in a fire at Stafford bus garage, without actually turning a wheel in service. 

WPH 123Y/1743 is part way through the process, body frame fitted. I guess it was brought down from East Lancs Coachbuilders like this for the open day.

LTS 93X/1733 on the left represents the finished product.

[busmansholiday]

20 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Was it really over 30 years ago when I took these photos? Time flies and all that

30 years, that's yesterday. Here's some more B&W ones I took on that day out to Huddersfield that I now know (having found a print with the date on the back ( hidden behind a picture of Leyland National demo FRM499K)) were taken on February 25th, 1972, so all but 50 years ago.

As me and my mate headed off to get our bus to Halifax (we'd read they had recently taken over Todmorden UDC' buses) the Barnsley scrap men rolled into town on their way home with their latest prizes (the M62 was still under construction then).

Whilst I cannot tell you much about what this cut down PD2 is towing, other than it appears to be in Rochdales' colours, the reg less Titan is, due to the power of the internet, and a few clues it's showing, not difficult to identify these days. I'll let you guess.

That was on it's own, the main convoy was this, led by an ex Bolton PD2/13 with Met Cam (or Metropolitan Cammell and Carriage and Wagon Company to give it its full title, bodywork). It was one of a batch of 15, GHW501-15 that passed, with the rest of the Bolton fleet to SELNEC in 1969. Which one, I don't know, yet, but oddly it's in the same colours as the other two scrapmens vehicles, Edinburgh.

The Leyland truck, which I think is a Comet was suspended towing, or to parody a well know phrase, "it's suspended towing Jim, but not as we know it".  A jib, hook and bar, those were the days!

whilst the third vehicle was another Edinburgh one.  Note the positioning of the Trade Plates in the drivers side window. They are held in place by the tax and operators disk fitting, it was 'normal' to see newspapers stuffed in there in service (done it myself). I know of one enthusiast who never taxed his bus, just stuck the days newspaper there when he went to rallies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, that tow wagon.

Clue 1 - fleetnumber 709 (not many operators went that high)

Clue 2 - early (late 40's or early 50's) PD because of the BFO headlights.

Clue 3 - panels are a dark colour, red, blue green or something.

Clue 4 - the adverts on the front.

 

Got it, probably not, so here's a picture I thieved off the web of it.

NTC709, a Leyland PD2/12 with Leyland's own body. New in September 1951 to Lancaster , it was withdrawn by them in August 1971 and as I said, these were taken in February 1972.

 

Off to Halifax next when I can be arsed.

Enjoy.

[cobblers]

19 hours ago, HarmonicCheeseburger said:

Did any of the Bus operators hop up the engines in their buses over the standard plodding diesel lumps limited by governors? 

When I repair the engine ECU off an Optare solo (OM904), a smaller local company has me put the 130KW maps on instead of the 91KW which perks them up on rural routes. 

[Inspector Morose]

As well as fixing the buggers, I used to drive them too. 20 odd years ago (eek!) I was lined up at the Chasetown terminus ready for a run into S service was used by Chase to cut out dead mileage so in the morning and evening peaks, there was something like a 5 minute frequency on the 94 as the fleet headed out and came back to the depot.

I used to take my camera with me, I was a National aficionado even then and took the occasional shot when I had a minute or two to wait. The regular passengers got used to appearing in my photos!

[Inspector Morose]

B943FET was a mk2 Metrobus built to dual-purpose specification for South Yorkshires Fastline express services. To drive the higher gearing, I think, a Gardner 6LXCT 230bhp engine was fitted. Contrast his with the West Midlands Timsaver batch whose identically high gearing struggled to be pushed along by the WMT standard 6LXB 180 bhp engine.
Having driven the WMT variety over many miles, I know which powerplant I'd prefer!

[Inspector Morose]

 

One that got away? According to Google, HNN114V survived long enough to become preserved but quite possibly it was scrapped in 2012 for some reason. Does anybody know?

Here it is in happier times. probably around the mid '90s, not long after South Notts had been bought out by Nottingham City Transport. Both the South Notts fleet numbers and those from Nottingham are shown on the bus and the legal lettering is that of NCT but very little else seems to have changed here.

If I recall, it was after this photo was taken we moved off in search of the surviving Midland Red shortened Fords that were being operated by a Local coach operator, Lamcote Motors. Little did I know as my shutter clicked that later that same day I would have joined the ranks of bus preservationists with the purchase of YHA359J.

[Inspector Morose]

Ah, RTE11G, one of my favourite buses at Chase. I used to nab it for service as often as I could as it was such a thing. It started as a pretty ordinary Leyland Leopard - ex-Lancaster but over time it gained an engine out of a DMU, spring parking brakes, a footbrake valve from an ERF truck and a high-speed diff from, probably the corner of the yard. Put it all together with the lightweight East Lancs body and this thing flew and sounded the part with its 'modified' exhaust!
The downside to this was that the steering was never updated to the power-assisted type and so piloting this around the mean streets of Willenhall made short work of my puny arm muscles.
 

[Inspector Morose]

A shot taken inside Delta Way depot in Cannock. Just look at the variety of vehicles here, from Leyland Tigers to a Ford Transit minibus and quite a lot in between. 
All of these vehicles would have been used on bus service with passengers expected to heave themselves up the steps on Tigers, carrying their pushchair or heavy shopping. Maybe modern times are better for the travelling public if not for the photographer.

[Inspector Morose]

Another terminus point, another chance for a photo. This is Stonnal, a place on the outskirts of Brownhills and Aldridge(ish). Chase operated the hourly bus service to here from Walsall via Aldridge which gave about a 10-minute layover here. 
It really was an 'old mans' route, no competition, no rush hour traffic to contend with, and all done by 4:30 to head off back to the yard on a 94 service. Bliss.
The bus, THX160S later had an accident where a WMT Leyland Lynx ran into the back of it. This set off a series of events that led to it being rebuilt with a vertical Leyland 420 and automatic gearbox out of a dustcart. The bus still exists and hopefully, I'll get to reacquaint myself with it this year.

[Inspector Morose]

Another oddity in the yard at Cannock was this unidentified Leyland PD series Titan. What it was doing there, I have no clue but I think it was accompanied by an ex-Southend Titan at the time.
So let's try and identify it, shall we? Well, it has an emergency exit window just behind the drivers' cab door hinting that this is a 30 foot PD3. That single skin roof dome would point towards an MCW body and the destination layout is definitely a feature of those delivered to Leicester.
Putting all of this together, I'd hazard a guess that this was one of the 46-55 batch of Leicester PD3s with MCW H41/33R bodies with the registration CRY46-55D. Close enough, I'd say and all without searching on the internet.

[Inspector Morose]

Buses in the upper part of Cannock, beside the bus wash, were there for parts recovery and scrapping. Here Leyland National NPK243R has been bought up from London Country (another British bus owned company) solely for spares. It would probably sit here for a number of months, parts slowly being transferred onto the running fleet until just a shell is left, after which the scrap man is called in and carted away for a new life as part of a washing machine, or whatever.
A sad end for what looked like a reasonable bus that probably had a few more years left in it but sentimentality doesn't pay the bills in the bus industry.

[Zelandeth]

4 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

A shot taken inside Delta Way depot in Cannock. Just look at the variety of vehicles here, from Leyland Tigers to a Ford Transit minibus and quite a lot in between. 
All of these vehicles would have been used on bus service with passengers expected to heave themselves up the steps on Tigers, carrying their pushchair or heavy shopping. Maybe modern times are better for the travelling public if not for the photographer.

Lasers really were sharp looking coaches weren't they.  One I've never actually seen in person, hopefully something I can fix sometime in the not too distant future if I ever get back to events again.

[Inspector Morose]

52 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Lasers really were sharp looking coaches weren't they.  One I've never actually seen in person, hopefully something I can fix sometime in the not too distant future if I ever get back to events again.

Some sharper looking than others.

[Zelandeth]

20 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

Some sharper looking than others.

That's quite something!  The utility and inventiveness of operators carrying out repairs should never be underestimated.

Remember I came across a photo somewhere of a coach which had been repaired by grafting the front of a Plaxton Supreme onto a Duple Dominant body...it took me several seconds of staring at it to figure out what the crap I was looking at.  My brain immediately knew that *something* was...wrong.  However it was cleanly enough done that it wasn't immediately obvious what was going on.  Especially as they had removed the classic Dominant chrome strip under the window line which made it less immediately obvious.

Imagine that confused a few people back in the day.

[Inspector Morose]

One of my favourite “repairs” was this recent find on Flikr:

ex Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes Leyland Leopard with a Duple Commander body but a Panorama Elite front!

[cms206]

A May 1989 shot of Western's FLF Lodekka DW1064, which had been new as Thames Valley's 609 but came north in the great FLF/VRT exchange in ths early 1970s, initially at Greenock. The training FLFs at Western gained this very traditional colour scheme, very much in contrast to Clydeside's inherited Lodekkas which carried the brighter ayres red & lemon chrome scheme.

At the time of this shot, PBL 57F was 21 years old; the equivalent of a 2001 Plaxton President or the likes today.

[cms206]

... and four of Clydeside's Lodekkas; PT1, PT3, MT4 and JT5; MT4 was an older LD Lodekka, the others being FLFs.

[cms206]

Most Scottish Bus Group fleets in the 70s and 80s were without a cut down Y-type Leopard as a wrecker, possibly excluding Northern and Eastern who favoured Albion Vikings and cut down Bristol Lodekkas.

Clydeside had no less than eight wreckers in the 80s, five of which were cut down Leopards originally in the CAG-C and KCS-F batches new to Western SMT.

To my knowledge Thorliebank's MW2 was the only one to run "unmodernised" in red & yellow; IW4 was heavily rebuilt and fitted with a crane, while JW6 was still red & cream at the time of this April 1987 shot hauling in a very poorly P95.

[Richard_FM]

I always like those tow trucks made from an old bus with the bodywork cut down.

[cms206]

Whilst the majority of single deckers inherited by Clydeside from Western in 1985 were of the normal Alexander Y-type/Leyland Leopard combination, there were a number of Alexander-bodied Seddon Pennine VIIs. A handful of these were Alexander Y-types and as such they were painted the same as the Leopards, but most were fitted with dual purpose Alexander T-type bodies.

The T-type seemed to cause a great deal of consternation in the paintshop as many different layouts were tried, some Seddons being painted in two or three different schemes, including one which ended up painted in the Y-type scheme after being reseated with 53 bus seats in place of the normal 49 high backed seats.

Ultimately it was a fruitless endeavour as all the Seddons had gone by 1989, the majority yet to hit their tenth birthday.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cms206]

The majority of Scottish Bus Group subsidiaries joined the new minibus revolution; Northern did not partake in the habit, Midland took a batch of four Metroriders, while Fife took a further 20. Kelvin took 43 Mercedes 608Ds, but Western, Clydeside, Central, Eastern, Lowland, Fife, Strathtay and Highland all favoured the Renault-Dodge 50-series. Strathtay's were Dormobile bodied, whilst Eastern split theirs between 70 or so Alexander bodied examples and a further 30-odd Reeve Burgess bodied S75s.

Clydeside's second batch of S56s, numbered 323-355 (E323-355 WYS), were unique in featuring the earlier "Mark 1" AM-design on the Renault facelifted Mk2 S56 chassis; these were intially split between Paisley (323-340, 354, 355) and Greenock (341-353). Two of these carried Quicksilver branding in silver & white and featured high backed seating and boots, but were otherwise mechanically identical to the other 31 in the batch with power from the Perkins Phaser turbo mated to Chrysler's TorqueFlite automatic transmissions. Retarders were fitted depending on DTS request; Paisley's were all fitted before entering service despite the town being relatively flat, whilst Greenock preferred to change the brake linings every Sunday. Two of the original batch (301/322, D301/300 SDS) were also coach seated but carried bus livery.

Whilst Clydeside at the time had depots at Largs, Rothesay, Greenock, Johnstone, Paisley, Inchinnan and Thornliebank, only Greenock, Johnstone and Paisley featured them initially, with Inchinnan later gathering many examples. The 50-series continued to be favoured at Clydeside after privatisation, with second hand examples bodied Northern Counties, Reeve Burgess and Alexander arriving well into the late 1990s when the last were seen off, mainly by second hand Mercedes van conversions from Crosville and Maidstone & District.

[cms206]

I am not a Routemaster fan, but I believe some of you are.

Strange people.

Anyway, a smattering of Clydeside Routemasters. Daresay I've posted some of these already but if I have, enjoy them again.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, cms206 said:

I am not a Routemaster fan, but I believe some of you are.

Strange people.

I got and have a 1976 Invacar as my first car, only car, and daily driver as well as a Large collection of lightbulbs, lamps and fluorescent tubes in all shapes and sizes (and a few street lights and other fixtures thrown in for good measure) 

I never claimed to be "not strange"  

 

on a more serious note, many thanks for all the pictures (including the non Routemaster ones!) always quite interesting to look at, and the commentary on them is always nice to read! (and obviously me being me there is the fun game of can I spot any Invacars and what now rare streetlights are in shot)

this comment especially is one I often think about  

4 hours ago, cms206 said:

At the time of this shot, PBL 57F was 21 years old; the equivalent of a 2001 Plaxton President or the likes today.

in that I have looked at other pictures like that and thought to myself its amazing, how much things changed over such a period of time

I mean you look at a 2001 car, sure its different to a 2021 car, but a lot of 2001 cars can still blend in just fine

but in 1989 if you looked at a 20~ year Old Morris minor compared to a modern car of the time there is such a vast difference between the 2 and a Moggie minor would stand out in traffic a lot more then, than a 2001 car would today

so I have always found that quite interesting, just how quickly things changed back then