Shite Petrol Prices

[CortinaDave]

I know its an old chestnut BUT.... last year it was about 85/90p a litre for unleaded here.. now around £1.10 at least.. and according to the news yesterday now that oil is over £127 a barrel we can look forward to the £1.30 litre in the next couple of months plus the oh - so- welcome tax increase due in octoberHow much higher do we reckon it will go before the protests start up again? I'm surprised there hasnt been any rumblings of late.. although the last few attempts that were made no-one seemed to give a monkeys about.even veg oil is dear now..... I'm going back onto LPG i think

[mk2_craig]

It sounds to me like most people are beginning to accept it as a fact of life - demand from India/China etc etc etc - plenty evidence of more car-sharing, increased bus season tickets and bike shops doing a roaring trade.There's probably some stats out there to prove that petrol is no more expensive "in real terms" (whatever one can manipulate them to be) than circa 1950.

[M'coli]

When on holiday 2 years ago in the Highlands, they were paying £1.10 a litre then...We're off there in a month's time! The base oil price is high so it's not the government doing it, which was the reason for the last fuel blockade.Also, I don't hink that we'll see the 2p rise in duty if fuel itself continues to rise, the VAT will go someway to helping it.

[CortinaDave]

It's the VAT element that particularly annoys me... In times like this where the oil price is high and pump prices are artificially inflated.. the government charges MORE tax! This is a huge part of whats pushing inflation and causing everyone problems, yet despite all the extra loot they've gained from the high prices in the last year they absolutely will not budge and ease off.

[AXrescuer]

I've just heard on the radio that around 1000 trucks are said to be taking part in fuel protests on the London bound M40 a week on Tuesday.

[j-j]

even veg oil is dear now..... I'm going back onto LPG i think

I ran my shitey Xantia on veg oil and was delighted with the results - 65 pence per litre and 50 MPG through the winter and I was well chuffed. Now that SVO is up at 95ppl to over a quid, I'm just not seeing the benefit.Luckily I managed to get the CX running on LPG recently - I never thought I'd see a time where running a 2.4 liter 70s luxobarge would be cheaper than running a 50mpg diseasel! I dunno ow long LPG will be so advantageous though as I've noted the price of LPG has gone up too - I paid 59 pence per litre today. Last week it was 55ppl. I understand that LPG will be about half the price of petrol until 2012 but it's not going to stop it rising too If motorists were to protest a la the truckers wouldn't people point and laff? -shall we see?

[garycox]

What modifications need to be made to run a car on LPG?Are they reversible?As an estimate how costly is it to be converted?

[j-j]

LPG an be done DIY but with caution!! This might be a wee bit techy and boring for AS but here goes:Mods? depends on the car: carburetor or injecto. The basic stuff needed is: LPG tank of suitable size, copper piping, filler point, device called an evapourator or regulator, LPG mixer to fit under/above/in/instead of the carburetor, LPG control switch and wiring harness.Most things more or less add on with minimum modification, but you need to cut holes in eg. the boot floor for pipes, you need to make and route the LPG switch (you don't need to fit loads of timers/relays etc as it's all controlled by the switch's little circuitry). The most complex thing to do is making up the wiring harness for the switch to cut off the LPG solenoids (one on the tank 2 on the evapo) and add in a petrol shut off valve - you really need to sit and think it through depending on if your car has a mech petrol pump or electric. Next big thing is the evapourator: that needs to be plumbed into the engine hot water pipes - the hottest you can get to stop the expanding gas freezing it solid so ideally one exiting the cylinder head, small diameter water pipes for it so ideally the heater matrix pair using T piece connectors. Mine has a small 30l tank in the boot (actually too small), the LPG filler is below the rear bumper near the middle, 8mm copper pipe from the filler to tank, 6mm copper pipe from the tank to the evapourator. Evapo is fitted in the engine room behind the engine and taps off the hot water. I fitted a posiflow electric petrol pump so it can be swiched off by LPG switch. The mixer is fitted very close to the carb inlet (this is essential to stop manifold backfires!) in a modified inlet plastic ducting (basically shortened and widened). The mixer is basically an alloy ring/tube with a slight venturi shape and holes on the inside that lets the gas vapour into the inlet, it's piped directly from the evapo. Common type are 'ring' mixers of whatever size to suit the engine capacity and inlet diameter. I got a special 'Blos' type of mixer based on a SU carburetor so it has a variable orifice inside based on the airflow - it allows starting from cold on gas and generally better performance.It took me 3 weeks DIY and dangerously learning as you go, it would cost over £800 for a LPGA fitter to supply and fit a basic carb system (probby more like £1000 TBH) but they'll have it done, tuned and certified in 2 days. For the cost you really need to do the miles each year to recoup the expense of fitting but it can potentially raise the value of the shite to which it's fitted! DIY is always my first choice - if you take your time and fit brand new parts from a supplier who's gonna answer your questions then you could do it yourself if you can find time and space and if you're game. I should say that I'm not officially recommending this because it could be dangerous! so DIY LPG fitting is at the DIYer's own risk! (I have not blown my ass up yet!)Should say, fitting to an injection car with an LPG injection system is beyond the scope of the DIYer I think. But you can use a single mixer fitted in the intake of an injection engine after the air flow sensor but before the manifold - you need to trick the ECU to stop its petrol injectors but keep its ignition sparking (I was told it could be done with disconnecting the injectors' earths but not certain)you also need to keep the air flow sensor and lambda sensors happy too.It's totally reversable but you might have to replace the air filter intake if it had been cut, any hole cut on the boot floor or hole on the rear bumper would have to be considered - some cars have the LPG filler through the body work eg. rear wing. If you do the mileage, just get it fitted and you'll get your money back in a year.

1968 Austin 11001979 Datsun Violet1981 Mini HL1983 VW Scirocco1993 Transit Van

-the first 4 here are ideal for conversion and if your tranny is one of the strange petrol ones than include that too. If the Mini or the 1100 were converted you'd be on seriously cheap motoring!

[Marty]

Just rode past a garage (Shell) in Esprick - 139.9p/L for diesel

[r.welfare]

Wow. It's 129.9p for DERV around here - 15p/litre higher than diesel. Kinda negates the economy advantage, dunnit...

[CortinaDave]

I got my LPG kit pro fitted 2 years ago to a calibra costing about 1200 sods.. now its coming off that and going onto my Probe costing 400 sods, which is a lot for a couple of days work.. but still, I'lll easily recoup the outlay.When I converted it was 37p/litre around here when petrol was 85p.. now the cheapest I can get is 49.9p/litre.. but petrol is 111.9 at best, so if anything the savings have got better...Prices do vary wildly though, theres one local joker trying it on at 65p !There are some garages up here selling "bio diesel" off the pumps for about 98p which is a damn sight better than £1.30 plus!

[garycox]

Loads of really useful information

Thanks so much, it would've taken me hours to find all that info, much appreciated.Unfortunately my everyday vehicle is the Transit, which is a diesel. The Mini's not exactly expensive to run anyway as I hardly use it, and an LPG tank would probably be bigger than the boot... The other 3 are sitting unused in pretty rubbish condition, although the 1100 and Datsun are just clinging onto MOTs.No my plan was to sell the 1100, Datsun and Scirocco (partly for the money but mainly just to make room as they have a collective value of about £1... one or two will probably be weighed in TBH).Then I might sell the Mini, which is something I thought I wouldn't be doing for a while... Its a one old lady owner from new 1981 HL, 39k miles, it is brown though.Then I will buy the car of my dreams...... a Vauxhall.No, seriously. A '68 Ventora FD to be exact, 3.3 Auto, hence the LPG query. I won't be doing many miles in it but I do plan to keep it for all of eternity.Does a car running on LPG get the same MPG (or equivalent measurement) as running on petrol? ie could I go the same distance with £10 of LPG as £20 of petrol (approximately)?

[j-j]

Does a car running on LPG get the same MPG (or equivalent measurement) as running on petrol? ie could I go the same distance with £10 of LPG as £20 of petrol (approximately)?

- well TBH it won't, it'll do around 80% the range of petrol per litre. So £10 of LPG would take you around £16 of petrol. (that's why it takes a while to recoup the costs) I'll admit it's not overwhelmingly great but It's still presently worth it. It's odd anyway because LPG is sold by the litre but it is a gas when it's burned so I dunno that the per litre comparison is the same? Legend has it that the engine runs cleaner and carbon deposits are cleared, Apparently the engine oil doesn't go black and the filter lasts an eternity on LPG - not checked this since the CX's oil filter is a cnut to change. The performance isn't adversely affected by gas but tickover is smoother and quieter - actually the engine runs much quieter overall on LPG almost like it prefers it...Best thing is filling up tho, the LPG filler attaches bayonet style to the filler and you just stand back and press a big comedy button on the pump. When it' full it stops and disconnecting the filler releases a puff of white vapour that looks like a sci fi prop!If you're getting the old VX with a 3.3 slusher then LPG is the order of the day.

[CortinaDave]

Personally I've found I'm only losing about 10 percent MPG on gas... it does vary from car to car but at the moment its a 60p per litre saving so even losing the 10 percent still big savings to be made once you cover the conversion costs.I see slug Brown has been going on about the "appalling" high price of oil and says it is scandalous that we are all held to ransom by OPEC.What about the appalling high levels of tax that slug holds us ransom to???He's only annoyed because as long as the oil price is stratospherically high he knows he won't get away with more duty increases

[j-j]

Personally I've found I'm only losing about 10 percent MPG on gas... it does vary from car to car but at the moment its a 60p per litre saving so even losing the 10 percent still big savings to be made once you cover the conversion costs.

-yea, TBH I have yet to properly check the real MPG on gas I was just quoting the literature.AFAIK, LPG should remain roughly half of petrol price until 2011, tho nothing stops petrol from going higher still apart from a riot OK I just worked it out: I'm getting 19mpg on LPG (that rhymes ) on average which is poor but hardly any worse than the standard 23 ish but it turns out near 80%. Maybe it's because it's a carburetor and not injection like your calibra. I really need a good reason to keep the diesel - but what?

[bigstraight6]

The oil price has now reached a record high, and is set to get higher! It's quite laughable that bungler Brown is having a go at OPEC to increase production, how about doing something a bit closer to home and cutting the ridiculously high duties/taxes we endure. Hopefully the good peoples of Crewe and Nantwich will send a clear message tonight

[Mr_Bo11ox]

As a Crewe + Nantwich constituent, I am kicking myself for not sorting out a postal vote - otherwise I would be taking great pleasure in squarely booting nu-labour in the clack tonight.

[Volksy]

I'f I still lived n Alsager, i would have done the same.

[CortinaDave]

Thats my local garage told me tonight that diesel is going up to £1.30 tomorrow morning. Its incredible to think thats 40 odd pence in the space of a year!Whats our lovely government doing to ease the strain? Putting the tax UP!I too have my fingers crossed that the good people of crewe and nantwich give Gordon Brown the urgent kick in the stones he needs.

[Father Ted]

Im not convinced that any new Gov't structure would make much difference myself. I think if the price of oil was enslaved to the Euro rather than the Dollar we would see some improvement, but otherwise I can see no end to higher fuel prices.I have a bicycle, and I'm not afraid to use it Mr Brown

[Volksy]

I earn an average wage, drive and average car, have below average rent to pay, have a short commute at the moment, use the train to travel long distance. I have just got my latest bank statement, and the majority of my expenditure after 'living' (Rent, food, household bills etc) is on keeping my car on the road.So fuel, food, household bills etc etc have all gone up, by between 10 and 35%, will my annual salary go up by that amount? Nope. Are things going to change with a change of government? Nope.Depressing isn't it. Kinda makes me wonder which direction it's going to force people to take.

[Father Ted]

Its been a long time since we had a civil war or riots in the streets.... But I can see things turning nasty in the near future, I really can

[pompei]

I'm surprised that we haven't seen more unrest before now.

 

There's going to be a huge struggle to keep inflation down, and if they fiddle about with interest rates, then that'll b*gger up the housing market even further, which is already in the doldrums. Falling house prices is a sure way of creating a feel-bad factor, regardless of whether or not there are too high to begin with. Problem is, the source of the inflation (ie rising oil prices) is beyond the government's control, yet it has a huge knock-on effect on everyone. So everyone is paying more for everything. Not good for Mr Brown.

 

I'm amazed that the raiway signalling staff have voted today not to go on strike - I would have thought that with soaring cost of living increases, and generally crap predictions, everyone would be hankering after big pay rises.

[CortinaDave]

I personally think its their immigration strategy.. make everything here so grim that all the immigrants go back home in search of a better life

[Timewaster]

My Mrs. says she feels really sorry for Gordon Brown.He waited 10 years for the prime ministers job, and made an utter balls up of it in the first 3 months!She may have a point!

[MrRegieRitmo]

I personally think its their immigration strategy.. make everything here so grim that all the immigrants go back home in search of a better life

I believe that's actually happening! I've heard that plenty of them are turning back home believing they were better off before! .......perhaps we should go with them!

[andrew e]

The reason us Signallers never went on strike is because we are fair - the offer of 4.8 % is pretty good, the overall vote ratio was 2015-1203 against. After all we have to do our part to keep inflation down I suppose.

[M'coli]

My Mrs. says she feels really sorry for Gordon Brown.He waited 10 years for the prime ministers job, and made an utter balls up of it in the first 3 months!She may have a point!

Looks like Tony had a heads-up and thought "Time I gotta f*** outa here" leaving Gordon to pick up the shit.To be honest, his biggest mistake was when he was still chancellor, i.e. the 10p tax thing.C'mon Gordon, don't piss on your own chips the year before, eh? No wonder we don't like you!

[Richard]

I think that's exactly what happened. I think Mr Blair planted a few time bombs too.

[Marty]

Yup, nurses are the same, I have just voted on my 4 year pay deal - 2.75% for year one, 2.3% for year two, 2% for year three and another 2% for year four. Not the best wage in the world, but you can live on it (unless you live in London then its utter shit and even the London weighting of £2K makes bog all difference). It has got slightly better, 10 years ago I was earning 10K as a staff nurse, That really was pants.The b'stards revamped the pay structure a couple of years ago and effectively gave everyone a pay rise, but got rid of overtime payments and unsociable hours payments - so you earn the same now if you work a bank holiday or night shift as you would if you work a standard shift - practically everyone I know, except management (who don't do the nights or bank holidays) is worse off as a result.