Ban for old cars (10 yrs +) from city centres

[blimp]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but just read about it in my auto express...Already started in Stuttgart, and possibly coming here, the banning of all cars over 10 years of age from city centres in an 'eco' drive. Basically, as older cars CO2 emissions can't be proved/guaranteed and then lumped together into the new tax bands, they would be banned from city centres.Outrageous, I say, as that would spell the end of my reliablish old 309 Full auto express story here PM petition (for what good it'll do here

[MrRegieRitmo]

That's ridiculous, plenty of people can't afford modern cars, my Alfa was 6 1/2 years old when I got it & that's been the newest of my 5 cars, the Fiesta was the only other one within a decade old and the Panda, Ritmo & R14 were all way beyond that. So that means if you get a car that's towards the thick end of ten years old you'll only get a couple of years service out of it before you'll be forced to trade in! This is another way to ensure everyone keeps tying themselves into finance deals & debt for new bland mobiles!

[pogweasel]

Plenty of people don't WANT and don't NEED a new car. Again i'll cite the case of my parents. Cover maybe 3000 miles a year, absolute max in their little Peugeot 205, because they both walk to work. The car is there for making journeys to far places, including cities on occasion. that's about as green as you can get, surely. It's a waste of their money to own a new car and a waste of resources. Sure, they could probably afford one, but what is the point - a new car costs you £3000 in depreciation alone every year, then there's main stealer servicing, etc. I doubt their total motoring budget tops £500 per annum.To be discriminated against like this is criminal.

[Daniel R25]

Hi,the original problem in Germany were cities with a high concentration of fine particles-- the EU allows a few days of high concentration: If you exceed these given number of days the cities have to act.The solution was to ban old diesels from the centres (Euro 1 and worse) which has been put into practice in January in cologne, Stuttgart, Berlin, Hannover and other areas / cities. They also banned petrol cars without cat converters...! From 2010 they will ban all Euro2, from 2012 all Euro 3 diesels. GREATThis was the easiest step to take and pushes the sales of new cars. Old cars could technically reach higher standards (Euro 2 / Euro3) with new filters. However, the homologation is that expensive, that you'd never get filters made for our favourite shite Consequence: My R25 Turbo-d is suddenly outlawed and worthless They still tolerate me until July. After that I will have to use my Renault 25 V6 turbo to get to my home in Cologne...The plans for Amsterdam are even worse: They will ban ALL cars produced before 1992. Time to emmigrate...Daniel

[Milford Cubicle]

What's the point? Surely the percentage of cars over 10 years old is relatively small anyway - most of the time my car is the oldest I see on the road, and it's only 12.

[MrRegieRitmo]

The plans for Amsterdam are even worse: They will ban ALL cars produced before 1992. Time to emmigrate...

You're kidding??! Amsterdam is a shite haven! Part of scenery is the shite, it's part of what makes Amsterdam, Amsterdam! I assumed the Dutch had a very liberal attitude to shite hence why it was so prevalent! I wouldn't mind a visit there but not if there's nothing to spot! What's next, banning Edam cheese & windmills? While they're at it 'down with those Clogs too!' It'll be like a seaside with no gulls or buoys!

[AnthonyG]

The plans for Amsterdam are even worse: They will ban ALL cars produced before 1992. Time to emmigrate...Daniel

I thought Amsterdam had quite a lot of old/classic cars - indeed classic cars were worth more in Holland than neighbouring countries due to free/reduced road tax? It's good to know 'joined up government' or lack of is not just a British thing!

[michiel]

Yep, no kidding... well, the plans are there, but several parties in The Hague have already said no to this, because they are afraid that every city will come up with its own regulations and then no one knows whether their car will be allowed in town or not. Oh and oldtimers (not clear how old they must be then) might be excluded form the plans, so then it would be just cars from between circa 1980 and 1992? So for now it's just a plan, albeit a very frightening one.

 

My 1991 Starlet would be out, but a similar 1992 Starlet would be allowed in... silly.

 

Last week a report was published stating that mopeds are at least twice as bad particlewise as cars, and cyclists who are waiting at traffic lights behind a scooter will breath in ten times the amount of particles that the bloke in the car next to him gets...

[AnthonyG]

I think I read in a recent classic & sports car that 'oldtimers' had been exempted from the German plans, due to protests from classic car owners. Think the German definition of oldtimer is pre 1980, hence the use of the word 'youngtimers' for 1980s cars.

[55bloke]

This really scares me!! Surely it won't actually happen- - - will it?

[ayd]

I've just been for a walk down the road and if this were to happen40% of the cars on my road would be banned......now thats not a small percentage

[r.welfare]

I think this is more political stupidity brewed up by mindless twats who are taking big backhanders from the motor industry, not realising that while newer cars may produce magical CO2 figures when in good fettle, when poorly maintained (ref. 20k service intervals and foot-to-the-floor rep driving styles) they will probably be just as bad as the well-oiled old clunkers we drive. Oh, and it's a case of "not on our patch" just because the nice new cars they will allow in take huge amounts of oil, metal and energy to create - and where does the pollution from that go? Oh, it's OK, not in the city centre, because there aren't any car factories on the High Street.This really pisses me off, but thankfully I don't need to drive into any city centres these days. However, despite earning a good salary, I prefer to drive old shite to get the best out of it and actually do my bit for the planet - my 405s are exceptionally well-maintained, and run on a partial veg oil/DERV mix. I try and use secondhand parts where possible for repair too. The fact that I'm not pouring money down the drain in depreciation, company car tax/finance interest and charges, main dealer servicing (although I believe the EU have ruled that under Competitions Rulings, you don't have to have your car serviced by a main dealer to keep the warranty valid, just use genuine parts and keep to the schedule - like to see that one proven, mind) etc is a definite bonus - I'd rather pay off my mortgage quicker or move to a bigger house, thanks - let's just hope that there would be a vote of some kind before dimwitted regulation like this is voted in in this country.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Exactly. The fact that my house was paid for some 10 years ago is due to the fact that I ran bangers whilst all around me had cars on the drip.Only thing is - the illness for old scrap is still with me!

[Richard]

I can remember the environment becoming fashionable in the late 80s/early 90s.Since then cars have got something like 50% heavier, 4x4s have got more common, cars have got a lot faster. New cars have got more common- it's not uncommon to see families running two current registration cars on fairly moderate incomes. Scrapyards are full of cars, like Dave's Calibra, that just need a minor repair.Outwith motoring we've found even more ways to waste energy. Patio heaters, multiple bathrooms, cheap flights, PCs to name a few.These "environmental" policies are ALWAYS made on economic grounds. You could be charitable and say it was for the sake of the economy or you could be cynical and say it's backhanders/jobs for the boys. As I get older I gravitate towards the cynical viewpoint.

[bigstraight6]

Plenty of people don't WANT and don't NEED a new car.

Absolutely, and a lot of people can't afford them, even in more recent times of easy credit though those days might be over for a while now. Down here in the not so affluent Southwest there's loads of 10 years or older cars on the road, mind you going into city centres is no longer required as you can park at any number of out of town superstores and get everything you need and endless plastic bags to put it in

[Albert Ross]

10 years old means R plate and older. That's a lot of cars local to me.....a lot of my customers have stuff that's S and T platers, so this means if they want to go into the nearest cities, Lincoln, Nottingham, Sheffield etc, they won't be able to use their cars!!!!! My own car is a bloody M plate Astra, and the next is a J plate 1970 Land Rover that is nearing completion after a 4 year rebuild............. The point about not needin a new car is false. Obviously everyone NEEDS a newer car so they canget to the city centre to use the shops. If they stay away, jobs will be lost!!!!!They really think about the knock on effects don't they.............Good job I'm about to sign on the dotted for a leathered up 18 month old Focus Ghia tomorrow eh.......I won't be guilty of putting people on the dole.

[pompei]

I'm really outraged of Tunbridge Wells about this. In the event how many cars/people will be affected, and what will be the overall impact of this? And how is it to be policed - no doubt more electronic spying?It is true that the presence of old cars inAmsterdam adds to the interest for enthusiasts like ourselves - but the overall number is that small that it efectively amounts to discrimination against those drivers who choose not to buy new or nearly new.As far as I am concerned, if it's safe to be on the road - ie MoT status, then it's fine to drive anywhere. End of.

[stoterstangen90]

 

[Marty]

Beautiful lamp incidentally

Eh?I really really cant see this happening in this country. Mind you if ever there was an excuse to tie up Prezza and bundle him into the boot of one of his Jags and then take it down the crushers.....

[Mr Lobster]

I could see it would be the sort of thing Red Ken might like to do, but I can't really see it happening here in the near future. Politically it would be too troublesome with too many voters so would be a big time vote loser for any politician wanting to do it.

[Adrian_pt]

rest easy, it's not going to happen. All empty words. For a start, the lawsuits will be outrageous, and secondly, it would be political suicide, attacked from both the radical left and the libertarian right. Having said that, it would be nice if public transport were good enough for cars in cities not to be actually needed....

[55bloke]

What worries me is, all those who live in cities where it HAS happened, probably also thought it never would!

[Daniel R25]

Yes,we started thinking about what would happen about 3 years ago. And it has happened... Nobody except the oldtimer lobby even protested.We now have quite an old fleet (8 years in average) on German roads-- and I believe this is what the new legislation is aimed against.Some now seem to realize that the measures have consequences only for those who cannot afford new cars: Young families and small businessnes (and us shitelovers, of course). It is a scandal that you have to pay road tax but could not even reach your home by car. In contrast, your true valuable classic > 30 years will be not be banned.What really annoys me is that the media / politics mixes up different issues: CO2 emission and emission of fine particles. And for some reason they also banned petrol cars without a lambda sonded cat converter + those with cat but without evaporative fuel control device. Mad stuff!Suddenly any older car is a "old stinker", although especially the older diesels produce large, less harmfull particles... and petrol engines hardly any at all. The "Umweltzone" in Berlin is incredibly large: I still cannot imagine that they will succeed in banning all those Wartburg, Trabi and old motorhomes (owned by some activist crowd ) Let's wait and see: The charge is 40 Euros + 1 point on your bad driving accout... they will also charge foreigners that do not display their red- yellow or green sticker!Daniel

[Dead_E23]

I could see it would be the sort of thing Red Ken might like to do, but I can't really see it happening here in the near future. Politically it would be too troublesome with too many voters so would be a big time vote loser for any politician wanting to do it.

I can see it happening in the very near future - London in 2010, if you happen to own anything pre-about 2003, diesel powered and based on a commercial vehicle of over 1250kg. That takes in a lot of small vans, campers, many types of Land Rover and all kinds of other stuff. If that's not the thin end of the wedge then I don't know what is.

[Ross_K]

Anybody registering a car here in Ireland (including second hand imports) after July is going to pay road tax based on CO2 emissions. That's fine if your car was made in the last five or six years, but if you're importing an old shitter with no manufacturer data as regards emissions, you can look forward to paying €2000 a year for road tax...

[Wolseley1660man]

Classic road tax here in Ireland is only slightly up as far as I'm aware, but something newer, be prepared for a fright.

[seth]

I can see it happening in the very near future - London in 2010, if you happen to own anything pre-about 2003, diesel powered and based on a commercial vehicle of over 1250kg. That takes in a lot of small vans, campers, many types of Land Rover and all kinds of other stuff. If that's not the thin end of the wedge then I don't know what is.

Yep,I think it unlikely it would get trawled out anywhere other than the half dozen or so largest cities in the country with London leading the way. The technology and spy cameras are already with us here now because of the low emission zone. All they'd need to do would be to decide which section of the capitals motorists they want to target and add the registration numbers to the list of vehicles to be restricted/penalised/fined.

[Mr Lobster]

The London Low Emision Zone, yes I can see that being etxended to catch a lot more older (by 2010) diesel engined commercials unfortunately. But I think the total banning of all cars over xx years old is at the moment unlikely with the possible exception of London and even then it would be a very hard sell to the voting public. The LEZ only currently affects commercials so passes under the radar of most drivers however it would be very conceivable that it could (will) be expanded to include whatever RedKen wants but would create a total shitstorm if large numbers of the public are forced to shell out a lot of money.Interestingly, most of the candidates for Mayor of London propose some 'reform' of the congestion charge...

[Pillock]

Stupid.Fine, all these low-emission-new-cars get to ponce around in the cities, but they were only low emission when they were made! I hired a 1.25 Fiesta - all hire cars now have to come with the sheet of paper saying what 'rating' they are, much like a fridge or cooker. This bit of paper said i should look forward to 60.1mpg on an 'extra urban' trip (i assume this meant like a motorway and nothing to do with youth clubs or burberry).Horsecrap. I went 142 miles down the M1, round the M25 and then an ikkle bit of nice steady cross-town. I got 32mpg which is worse than my Golf Driver, my Scirocco and barely better than my G40 which got thrashed every day.Yet these cars (1990, 1984 and 1991) would be banned whilst the Fiesta gets the red carpet and welcoming arms. How about better public transport and stuff to encourage people out of cars rather than whacking tax on everything and then banning it anyway? I use the bus for work sometimes but it's been known to take me 90 minutes to get 4 miles, which costs £1.25. £1.25 over ten trips is more than it costs for the petrol to run a car on the same journey ten times (£12.50 gets me about 70 miles these days, or nearly twice the distance i'd cove just using it for work) . So nonwithstanding the purchase price of the car (and with cars like we drive, it's both negligable and often made back on sale) it's cheaper to drive, faster to drive, and less chance of the smack-head with his feet on the chairs mugging you too. Depending on who you give a lift to

[Mr Lobster]

all hire cars now have to come with the sheet of paper saying what 'rating' they are, much like a fridge or cooker.

All new cars have to have this energy rating now, hire cars don't have to have one but a lot tend to get left in gloveboxes....

How about better public transport and stuff to encourage people out of cars rather than whacking tax on everything and then banning it anyway?

Very true! If we had a semi reasonable, reliable and affordable public transport system then people would use it especially in city centres but have we? No.