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At the risk of setting myself up for ridicule....


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47 replies to this topic

#31 OFFLINE   Betaphile

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 04:14 PM

Just a feeling with no empirical evidence to back it up, but...

...the Logan, like the Nano, strikes me as the sort of car that people who post on automotive messageboards (not this one!) say they will buy - if it comes to their country, and oh, what a shame it isn't, etc etc. Thus allowing them to show off their 'minimalist' credentials with virtually zero risk of ever being asked to put up or shut up because they know full well that the chances of it making to their country are practically nil.

When push comes to shove, it won't happen, because the vast majority of people are just too addicted to contemporary tat to 'downgrade'. They might say, "Oh, I can do without climate control, and EBD, and fifty airbags", but not many people are secure enough in themselves to actually drive something like that. Think of it as the Bradley effect for cars.

Me? I think the Logan is a remarkable achievement. But actually, as a Western prospect, I reckon something like the Fiat Linea is more interesting, because it doesn't look like a cheap car - this, to my mind, is critical. More to the point, the suspension settings sound ideal for real roads. Priced correctly, I genuinely would buy one of these over virtually anything else new.

#32 OFFLINE   Mash

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 04:31 PM

The big difference with the Lada and Logan is that they actually have an air of a "normal" car about them. All these little Tokyo boxes that the pensioners love are perfect for zooming round an overcrowded metropolis but I wouldn't like to sit on a motorway or even a busy A-road in one with their brick-like wind resistance and teeny tiny wheels.Going back to the Nano (or should that be No-no) it's great in principal, but it just looks f*****g stupid. That's the principal reason I wouldn't buy one.

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 06:24 PM

As a Kei-car driver, I agree with you, Mash! They are the best cars ever at suburban/city driving, but take them onto anything with more than one lane and suddenly small vans turn into enormous moving walls of death and you get fed up of fighting crosswinds and skating all over the road.How about if a company made a large size basic car? Something equivalent to a later 1.6 Cortina, big enough to be used as a taxi, with uncomplicated body panels (easy to repair), maybe two engines on offer (a basic 1.6/1.8 petrol, a diesel) and loads of parts shared with other cars to keep parts availability up and costs down. It'd probably be of little interest to individual users, but think of their potential as taxis and hire cars!

#34 OFFLINE   pogweasel

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 06:32 PM

How about if a company made a large size basic car? Something equivalent to a later 1.6 Cortina, big enough to be used as a taxi, with uncomplicated body panels (easy to repair), maybe two engines on offer (a basic 1.6/1.8 petrol, a diesel) and loads of parts shared with other cars to keep parts availability up and costs down. It'd probably be of little interest to individual users, but think of their potential as taxis and hire cars!

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 06:37 PM

I had the Hyundai Stellar on my mind as I typed that actually. Why don't they just make those again? I'd buy one, preferably if they did some sort of chrome-laden spec with brown vinyl seats or something similarly horrid.

#36 OFFLINE   Mr Lobster

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 07:02 PM

It'd probably be of little interest to individual users, but think of their potential as taxis and hire cars!

As hire cars they would be of very little use! Hire cars are generally bought on the basis of how easy they are to resell.In this country, most rental companies make most money on disposal - ie profit on selling the car at the end of its rental life - renting the car out makes some money but not fortunes. Rental companies prefer Ford / Vauxhall etc as they are easy to resell and residual value is better.Also. rental customers can be very difficult to try and get into a budget car - we have (oh, I manage a car rental company btw...) run a few Kia Picantos and getting people to take them over a Corsa / Fiesta / Panda etc is murder as 99.99999% of people see them as 'inferior'

#37 OFFLINE   Justin Case

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 07:07 PM

I would like to think that there was a market in Britain for either a small basic car like the Tata or a family-sized basic car like the Logan, but the sort of person who buys a new car has been so conned into believing that they need something with more goodies than ToysRUs and a top speed of at least 120 mph that it is unlikely that either could be sold in large enough numbers to get the economies of scale that could make a really low price profitable.

#38 OFFLINE   outlaw118

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:05 PM

I agree with Mr Alfisti, up to a point which I feel has been forgotton by the great and good who have debated this point so far.The Mot test has become gradually more and more difficult to pass and manufacturers are increasingly relutant to stock spare parts for the older more "shite" models that we love on here.We are also, so we are told in the midst of a "credit crunch" which will mean that Breakyerlegs Car Credit at 43.2%APR may soon be the only option for a lot of people, so instead of peeing £4000 on a 2nd/3rd hand Fockus with 135k on, a percentage may want to get a new car.Also the "back to basics" idea appeals to me and to all of us on so many levels; surely we are not alone? We can all remember the times when we or our dads spent Sundays under the bonnet of a Cortina or similar,"tinkering"? I know some of us still do, but most modern crap, I wouldn't know where to start!BRING BACK THE PINTO!!Sorry, that turned a bit ranty didn't it?!

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#39 OFFLINE   docker

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:20 PM

Not knowing the spec or the uk law - would it pass emissions (600cc engine or something isnt it?) and safety laws (G-Whiz quadcycle loop hole?)?Make it electric and sell it through tata new range rover dealerships as their congestion charge free city ride bogof!

#40 OFFLINE   Mash

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:16 PM

I agree with Mr Alfisti, up to a point which I feel has been forgotton by the great and good who have debated this point so far.The Mot test has become gradually more and more difficult to pass and manufacturers are increasingly relutant to stock spare parts for the older more "shite" models that we love on here.We are also, so we are told in the midst of a "credit crunch" which will mean that Breakyerlegs Car Credit at 43.2%APR may soon be the only option for a lot of people, so instead of peeing £4000 on a 2nd/3rd hand Fockus with 135k on, a percentage may want to get a new car.Also the "back to basics" idea appeals to me and to all of us on so many levels; surely we are not alone? We can all remember the times when we or our dads spent Sundays under the bonnet of a Cortina or similar,"tinkering"? I know some of us still do, but most modern crap, I wouldn't know where to start!BRING BACK THE PINTO!!Sorry, that turned a bit ranty didn't it?!

Whilst that is true, we seem as a society to have made a rod for our own backs or perhaps have had the rod thrust down our backs by manufacturers, advertising, the government and so on and become this disposable society which only thinks of the next "fix" and doesn't value things as our older generations did. A new car is now a disposable item and relatively speaking cheap and easy to attain for most people. I don't think it is particularly difficult to get a car to pass an MOT each year with no problems if you invest a little care in looking after it instead of using and abusing it then throwing it away for the want of a small repair. This brings about the replace rather than fix mentality. My 23 year old car passed its test this week again with no problems. I think it's appalling the way some people treat vehicles, hell, I even drive hire cars as I would my own.I know we need new cars to make the world go round but they used to be a thing to aspire to rather than be complacent about and were more expensive to buy, so people would care for and maintain a 2nd hand car more carefully than nowadays. Of course now we're so far down the slippery slope that there isn't any turning back - you'll never get the majority of people to change their thinking about this subject. I'm happy enough driving and looking after an old car but I don't "fit" do I and at the end of the day that's all that matters to many people.That was a bit ranty too wasn't it? Sorry :P

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:47 PM

We can all remember the times when we or our dads spent Sundays under the bonnet of a Cortina or similar,"tinkering"?

It's unusual for me not to be tinkering with a car at some point over the weekend, even if it's just a quick check of fluid levels and tyre pressures. Very rarely have I seen anyone on my street doing the same. Even when I only had a "modern" I used to do that!I think people are too confident of the ability of newer cars to tell them that something is up. My mate's wife owns a Polo with no set servicing schedule, the car tells you when it is time for a service. Not sure how that works, but I can imagine someone happily using the same oil for 5 years on the basis that the servicing alert system was knackered.Don't get me started on people who only replace their tyres when the MOT man tells them to.....

#42 OFFLINE   r.welfare

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 12:43 PM

My great-uncle asked me to sell his Rover 214 a year or so ago, that hadn't had the oil changed (or indeed any servicing done) for the five years he had owned it - every time it went in for the MOT he asked the garage to do it, but they told him not to bother as he had hardly done any miles :roll: Needless to say I changed the oil and it was like bloody treacle. But this is indicative of the motoring public at large, who will service things on a mileage, rather than time, basis. Check out the 'full service histories' on some eBay cars as an illustration!Getting back to the Logan, Tata et al, I agree with Mash that such a cheap car will just be seen as 'more disposable' than a secondhand Focus. It wasn't unusual to find a lot of Ladas, FSOs, Yugos etc had been treated that way back in the 80's.

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#43 OFFLINE   retrogeezer

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:24 PM

I would also say that the issue with 'new' cars and older 'shite' is the time/money and effort spent on running them.More & more people are slaves to their companies and working longer & longer hours. They don't have time to tinker with their cars anymore and prefer to run a new car as it has a warranty etc. So many people have company cars as well these days - probably half the cars in the street are company owned these days.I'm sure the increases in fuel costs is also, in part trying to eradicate shite from our roads. I'd love to have a big old merc w123 or an E28 beemer etc, etc but at £1.04 a litre it is bad enough trying to run a supposedly economic 2.0 16v mondeo. To tax & run a 2.8 merc would just be out of the question for me. :cry:

#44 OFFLINE   Marty

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:42 PM

Getting back to the Logan, Tata et al, I agree with Mash that such a cheap car will just be seen as 'more disposable' than a secondhand Focus.

And indeed if I bought one, it would be treated as disposable. But If I bought one it would be used purely for my work hack - something small & cheap and chuckaway would be fine for work. It would get serviced, but beyond that..... :twisted:

I would also say that the issue with 'new' cars and older 'shite' is the time/money and effort spent on running them.More & more people are slaves to their companies and working longer & longer hours. They don't have time to tinker with their cars any more and prefer to run a new car as it has a warranty etc. .

Which is why etc etc etc.

#45 OFFLINE   mk2_craig

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:47 PM

How about if a company made a large size basic car? Something equivalent to a later 1.6 Cortina, big enough to be used as a taxi, with uncomplicated body panels (easy to repair), maybe two engines on offer (a basic 1.6/1.8 petrol, a diesel) and loads of parts shared with other cars to keep parts availability up and costs down. It'd probably be of little interest to individual users, but think of their potential as taxis and hire cars!

Closest I think anybody's got to this in recent years is the Kia Shuma... early examples of which must be thoroughly scrappable by now

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#46 OFFLINE   Adrian_pt

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 02:03 PM

I don't think cheap cars have to come in the categories of either shite or things like the Tata Nano. If all you want is cheap, disposable transport form A to B, get something like an early Clio or 306 or Saxo or Mk IV Fiesta or something - cheapo hatch from 8-12 years back - perfect. Not rare enough to be impractical, and not new enough to be a waste of money. There IS a middle ground...I think that buying incredibly cheap cars when new is fine for developing countries - everyone needs a Model T equivalent at some stage - but here, when you get an economical and reliable motor for peanuts, there's just no point. There's also resale value to think about. I get a Logan or a Nano (although you really canoot compare them), and don't spend very much on either buying them or keeping them running. But when I come to sell them on, I get sweet f a. Older cars, meanwhile, have already fallen down the depreciation ladder, so you don't lose as much although you might spend a bit more on petrol and insurance. But you also drive something far, far better...I have a rant prepared on super super low value food, but I'll save that for another day...BTW I know the Logan reasonably well. The only one which is with coming to these shores is the van version and possibly the pick-up, becasue they're large unpretentious workhorses which are better value than pretty much any other similar commercial - and for van drivers, buying new makes a lot of sense given the mileages they cover. There's just no point, though, in spending 5 to 7 k on a new one when you could do SO much better for the money.(phew)

#47 OFFLINE   pugtop

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 05:46 PM

I've just been to look at a 1997 R plate VauxhallOmega estate for my mates dad , advertised at £1500 ..... I wouldn't have paid the £500 for it , there was bubbling in the roof paint rust on the top of one door , the alternator belt looked like 100 year old , sun dried , leather and it was falling to pieces .... after the Jag we went to see yesterday , that wouldn't start and when it did it only made it 10 feet off the guys driveway before dieing on us..... bring on the Nano ... for £1k + it's a bargain!! :lol:
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#48 Guest_greenvanman_*

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 06:39 PM

Like a square, circle and triangle with some swooshes to indicate speed and excitement? Yes, that's the thing!!!!!.

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I'd have one, though possibly not one with a buggered autobox (albeit including a spare one that might work) starting at £1500.

I'd be taking a hairdryer to those stickers though...




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