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Flywheel Shite


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#1 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:08 PM

Good evening everyone.

 

Distinct possibility I'm going to be told on Monday that I need the clutch and flywheel doing on my MKIV Golf as I had a fairly major FTP this evening whereby it shat its clutch.  

 

The last time I spoke to the garage about it, they did mention the possibility of a single mass flywheel conversion and I know that this is potentially a lot cheaper than the dual-mass that's in there.

 

The question I have is has anybody here done it?  I understand that I'd lose a bit of refinement but I can put up with a bit of noise at idle (and have been doing so for some time, hence tonight's FTP).  Is it a really bad idea?  A good idea?  Somewhere in between and what would you do?

 

It's a MKIV Golf with the PD engine on the 130PS map and a six-speed manual.  It's quite torquey and pulls like a train when it gets going...


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#2 OFFLINE   UltraWomble

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:22 PM

I'll tell you on Tuesday as Im having this done (reluctantly) to the C8


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#3 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:24 PM

Best of luck...


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#4 OFFLINE   rickvw72

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:26 PM

I’d stick a dmf back in, can get the kit for around £300 for quality like LUK / Sachs.
I find there’s no real replacement (for the cost of clutch) for a decent 130 pd golf, worth the repair.
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#5 ONLINE   SiC

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:28 PM

Have the DMF inspected before replacing it. They don't always fail. My 2.2 ctdi civic had its clutch replaced at 97k. The LUK DMF was in spec according to the garage so didn't have it changed. It's with my in-laws now and 146k+ on its absolutely fine still.
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#6 ONLINE   SiC

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:29 PM

SMF can and do shorten the life of the gearboxes.
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#7 OFFLINE   bigfella2

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:37 PM

I have had this done on a caddy van, but it's hard to compare a before and after as I bought the van with a blown engine and changed the clutch and flywheel when it was all in bits, but this uses a 5 speed box as opposed to your 6. Seems fine but can't compare before and after.

Some cars you can't tell any difference between between a smf and dmf, but some owners of 6 speed PD's really regret having it done, complaining if noise at idle.

So two options, get a decent brand smf and clutch, no eBay specials and hope for the best.

Or put another dmf and clutch in as I can't see there being a massive price difference between a smf and dmf. I don't know how many miles your golfs done? Am guessing it's the original clutch, so if it's done 120k are you likely to be still the owner at 240k when it needs another clutch.
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#8 OFFLINE   Mally

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:39 PM

Depends how much the saving is, how much the car is worth, and how long you are thinking of keeping the car.

I'd go the cheap way normally, but if it's only £100 ish I'd DMF.


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#9 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:42 PM

It's a car I'm intending to keep and it's on 113K.  I do about 25K a year.  Clutch wasn't great at 48K (when I got it) because it belonged to my late Grandmother who wasn't exactly sympathetic and rode the clutch constantly.

 

I think based on what's been said, DMF is probably my best bet.  

 

For the record, the job is definitely being farmed out to my regular garage.  They're not cheap but they are extraordinarily good.

 

I think the car's at the point where it needs a few jobs.  CV boots, cambelt and pump are probably also due this year.  Cambelt and pump is about £250.

 

If I can justify getting it through this stage then it's a definite keeper.  I'm quite sentimentally attached to the car and enjoy driving it...


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#10 ONLINE   Junkman

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 01:26 AM

Good evening everyone.

 

Distinct possibility I'm going to be told on Monday that I need the clutch and flywheel doing on my MKIV Golf

 

On your fucking what???


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#11 OFFLINE   Mrcento

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 02:07 AM

DMF's are fitted for a reason, and it's not just refinement. The engines are designed to have them and tend to have a much lighter weight (read, cheaper) crankshaft.

 

Without a DMF, the shock load going through the crank increases.

 

Plenty stories out there about folk who've had DMF issues fitting solid and snapping their crank within 1000 miles.

 

I'd probably (grudgingly) go DMF on anything modernish tbh.


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#12 ONLINE   mrbenn

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:49 AM

If its a car you're planning to keep then I'd stick with the DMF, assuming it needs to be replaced.

 

A chap I know has a Focus TDCi and he had the single flywheel conversion done as he couldn't afford the DMF at the time. He said there was no difference except a vibration at idle, and has run the car for a good mileage since the conversion. That said, I imagine different cars will have different results.


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#13 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:59 AM

I’ve driven various Fords with SMF conversions, didn’t really feel any discernible difference. A few people have reported broken cranks etc but then again thousands of SMF kits are fitted every year, so I’d take a few stories here and there with a pinch of salt. If it’s an older car I’d say do it but if it’s something fairly new the couple of hundred quid difference is less relevant so I’d fit the DMF in that instance.

When you have the clutch taken out they will check for play in the DMF. Beyond a certain spec then they’ll recommend you replace it. On a lot of diesels you’ll find they’ll be hesitant to warrant it if you don’t fit a new DMF at the same time.
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#14 ONLINE   DaveDorson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:00 AM

I've only got experience of doing this on a 5 Speed vw. Used a g60 fly and vr6 clutch and it's been absolutely fine.

The cranks are solid enough that they won't get toasted from using one.

6 speed ones if I remember rightly are quite noisy when done.
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#15 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:05 AM

I will talk to the garage on Monday.  They've told me that they've done SMF conversions before when they used to work on taxis regularly.  I trust their judgement but I'm very grateful for the advice I've received.  All opinions are good.  

 

With this job done and the other age-related jobs this car should stay on the road for a good, long time.  It would be a shame to get rid as it's a low-mileage example and the engine is tickety-boo.  It was just driven badly for a long time by my late Grandmother - which is what has been a factor in this!

 

I think every car of a certain age goes through this.  Either the work is done or it isn't.  One of those things.


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#16 ONLINE   egg

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:07 AM

I think the car's at the point where it needs a few jobs.  CV boots, cambelt and pump are probably also due this year.  Cambelt and pump is about £250.

 

If I can justify getting it through this stage then it's a definite keeper.  I'm quite sentimentally attached to the car and enjoy driving it...

 

I know you're attached to this one, and fair enough. But do step back just for a second and think about whether there is anything else you'd prefer for the £1k that needs putting into this.

 

I'd say probably not, because you'd probably just exchange it for another car that needs a lot of work with the mileage you do. Easy for me to say buy a 90s Mazda/Toyo, but I'm doing just a few thousand.


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#17 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:20 AM

I know you're attached to this one, and fair enough. But do step back just for a second and think about whether there is anything else you'd prefer for the £1k that needs putting into this.

 

I'd say probably not, because you'd probably just exchange it for another car that needs a lot of work with the mileage you do. Easy for me to say buy a 90s Mazda/Toyo, but I'm doing just a few thousand.

 

 

I have been talking about this one with Lady Grumpius.  We've had exactly this discussion recently and it came up again last night.

 

She's of the opinion that I should keep the car.  Obviously if it's going to cost a lot more than we think it will, then we'll reconsider but the truth is that I don't think I'm going to get something that I like for the money.  If somebody came along with a diesel Volvo that was equivalent and wasn't requiring any big jobs then that would definitely give me pause for thought but it would have to be the 'right' one.  Truth is, I know this car and I know what's wrong with it and even if I bought something from here (and this is probably the only place I'd buy an equivalent from, given the honesty of the adverts and the people) it could still shat itself.  The Golf could also shat itself but at least I know its history and know that it's solid underneath, etc.

 

My mileage isn't as bad as it was now the distance to work is halved but the driving I do now put on the car is harder.  Country roads with some traffic as opposed to motorway.  This was obviously going to happen sooner-or-later but yesterday was particularly hard on the clutch and I think that's why it chose that moment to go.

 

I'm quite picky about what I have and the car has a few luxuries that I'm particularly attached to.  Climate control, six gears, estate with a grunty engine and quite fun to drive.  Not sure I'd get all those with the big jobs done for the kind of money I could spend...


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#18 ONLINE   mrbenn

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:23 AM

Sounds like a classic case of "better the devil you know".

 

If you still like the car, which you obviously do, then crack on :)


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#19 ONLINE   SiC

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:26 AM

Another thing to bear in mind is that they seemed to figured out how to make DMFs last a bit better nowadays. Nearly two decades since they started putting them in drivetrains in anger.

So if it's a new unit, chances are it'll at least last for the life of the clutch again - possibly longer. Plus it seems heat is one of the biggest enemy to them, so if you don't slip the clutch often or for long periods it could well never give any grief for a long time.
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#20 ONLINE   egg

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:26 AM

I'm quite picky about what I have and the car has a few luxuries that I'm particularly attached to.  Climate control, six gears, estate with a grunty engine and quite fun to drive.  Not sure I'd get all those with the big jobs done for the kind of money I could spend...

 

Autotrader currently have 8 for sale at equivalent 130 spec (quite rare aren't they?) and while a couple mention cambelt - none mention recent clutch. I guess they are at the age where people are getting rid rather than face the big bills like a lot of early 00s stuff


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#21 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:29 AM

Autotrader currently have 8 for sale at equivalent 130 spec (quite rare aren't they?) and while a couple mention cambelt - none mention recent clutch. I guess they are at the age where people are getting rid rather than face the big bills like a lot of early 00s stuff

 

 

I had a look the other day to get an idea.  Most of them are a lower trim too as I think mine has a few 'late' features.  They're ranging from about £700-£1,100 IIRC...

 

They're not that common.  Mine is cosmetically rough and has a few 'typical' faults (cruise control, rear wiper motor) but it is mostly just age-related.  


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#22 ONLINE   egg

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:33 AM

Cartakeback suggest £135 - which isn't going to change your life massively either. Though I guess there's a few quid in rear luggage cover and anything else you can take off without them noticing.


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#23 ONLINE   GrumpiusMaximus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:36 AM

Cheers mate.  I appreciate you taking the time there.  I wouldn't have thought to look...

 

It's currently parked up outside the garage.  Lady Grumpius' Dad is giving the keys to them on Monday so they can have a look whilst I get the train to work.  One way or another, it'll be fine.  Ultimately it's just a car.


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#24 ONLINE   SiC

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:39 AM

I'm very much in the school of if you look after a car it'll last you and there is something nice about having a familiar, reliable car. Certainly less stressful for me in ownership if I know a car has been reliable long term.

As you probably know, there is no reason these engines can't hit 300k if looked after. The Golf IV isn't a bad old barge either. No they don't handle but then they're the last of German cars with comfortable suspension. Pretty reliable, mostly niggly things that fail like door switches and window regulators. Most garages have no problem working on them or getting parts.

If it was mine, I'd be spending the money to sort it and sort it properly. After all the friction plate and flywheel are consumables anyway. You will struggle to get a decent car like you've got for how much they'll cost to change.
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#25 OFFLINE   Isaac Hunt

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:42 AM

I have been talking about this one with Lady Grumpius. We've had exactly this discussion recently and it came up again last night.

She's of the opinion that I should keep the car. Obviously if it's going to cost a lot more than we think it will, then we'll reconsider but the truth is that I don't think I'm going to get something that I like for the money. If somebody came along with a diesel Volvo that was equivalent and wasn't requiring any big jobs then that would definitely give me pause for thought but it would have to be the 'right' one. Truth is, I know this car and I know what's wrong with it and even if I bought something from here (and this is probably the only place I'd buy an equivalent from, given the honesty of the adverts and the people) it could still shat itself. The Golf could also shat itself but at least I know its history and know that it's solid underneath, etc.

My mileage isn't as bad as it was now the distance to work is halved but the driving I do now put on the car is harder. Country roads with some traffic as opposed to motorway. This was obviously going to happen sooner-or-later but yesterday was particularly hard on the clutch and I think that's why it chose that moment to go.

I'm quite picky about what I have and the car has a few luxuries that I'm particularly attached to. Climate control, six gears, estate with a grunty engine and quite fun to drive. Not sure I'd get all those with the big jobs done for the kind of money I could spend...


If you like the car and are keeping it, get it done with a DMF and all being well it will last forever.

I bought an MGZR for my lad in 2013. A couple of months later the Clutch Release Bearing collapses. I took the box out and as I had a good used CRB to hand I was seriously tempted to lob that in and bolt it all back up.

I elected to put a complete clutch kit in it. Then the HG lunched itself so I shoved a new gasket on.

That was all five years ago and 60000 miles ago in which time I’ve not needed to touch it. Had I thrown just a CRB in then chances are in the last 60k I would have been back at it.

If you like the car and plan to keep, then it is worth the extra cost of the repair IMHO. Scrapyard will be littered with cars where someone has made the ‘not worth the cost v value if the car’ decision.


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#26 ONLINE   myglaren

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:12 PM

I had a replacement DMF and clutch on the first C5 at a Citroen specialist. He told me at the time that a lot of Ford had had a solid flywheel replacement done that had then buggered the gearbox.

 

Although it was definitely on it's last legs - they showed me the old one and it was barely hanging together - it turned out to be a duff injector causing the engine to leap around so much that the car visibly shook on idle.

 

My clutch has been slipping intermittently for a couple of years now, just for a second or so then will be fine for weeks.

Just before Christmas it was worse and when I had a new alternator fitted they gave me a price of £900 for fitting a new LUK DMF and clutch.

 

Said I'd wait until Christmas was over and it has been fine since. :)


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#27 OFFLINE   twosmoke300

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:38 PM

Was just about to post that a misfire will kill a dmf in short order

One of the funniest things ive read on here - RIP Dave

 

Quote

 

Brilliant... late in for lunch I fired up an off-brand pot noodle and while carrying it to the lounge successfully spilled it all over myself, burned the piss out of my hand, soaked my phone with the juice, soaked a load of expense receipts I was also carrying and it hit the hall floor and just fucking exploded....it was literally dripping from the ceiling in my newly decorated hallway. The obvious and considered reaction was to throw an immediate, massive paddy and boot the fucker down the hall while screaming, which has made the whole scenario about 18 times worse.


#28 OFFLINE   Axplug

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:42 PM

Hi....I had the same dilemma with my pd130 golf when I discovered with great joy when the
clutch slave cylinder went and I realised that was a gearbox off job. My golf had had a new Luk dmf at 110 k ( now on 140k) fitted by previous owner. I wasn't expecting to have to replace the dmf but when I got to it it had an alarming amount of play in it. In the end I bought a new Sachs dmf from car parts for less when they had a deal on which from memory with new clutch was about 350.

I decided not to look further into the smf option

I know you don't want to do it yourself but I found it not too bad although awkward dropping the box and I took a leisurely weekend on it. About 1500 later it's ok and doesn't vibrate so now don't regret it. I'm keeping the golf long term and I like the power and economy of the pd engine so know where you're coming from!
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#29 OFFLINE   Christine

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:50 PM

Grumps !  Now is the chance to buy a shitheap  !    " Just to tide us over , dear,  until my car is fixed .." 


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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:58 PM

I believe there is an AX fur sale in Folkestone ;-)


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