Alanism Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Hi all. I hope all is super and well.Once upon a time I had a car. One day my wonderful wife was driving said car when somebody decided that they wanted to drive straight into it. Being a good sort of chap he instantly admitted he just drove into the car and the insurance company said "its old and rubbish we will write it off immediately".That's how this story begins.Next, we remove the private plate from the car via DVLA and they take money for that action. The next thing that happens is that we receive all the paperwork to that. We advise DVLA that the car has gone on the back of a truck and presume it will be destroyed.Fast forward many, many months and we receive a letter advising us that we have to opportunity to attend court in Leeds (very local when I live in Grimsby). Apparently the car has been "witnessed" by DVLA uninsured under its replacement number plate (when the private plate is taken off it is allocated a new number). This is wonderful and all that as I have never seen the car on its new number plate as I have not had the car since it was smashed up.My insurance company have agreed that they took the car off me and have sent me a nice letter to that effect.I will be declaring myself "not guilty" by post and will include the insurance companies letter and an overview/synopsis of what has been happening.Here is my concern - what if I am found "guilty" despite declaring myself not guilty (ie in my absence). Id like to think this is an absurd possibility as I don't have the car but what if... When they add fees/charges and other evil things am I just better to just declare myself as guilty and pay a small fine rather than gamble with honesty and receive a massive fine?Has anybody had experience of this? Its not even a driving offence. Its an "admin" offence in my eyes but I don't know what I could expect as a fine as there is no "declare guilty and pay x" option on the paperwork.Sorry if this is a little longwinded I'm just stressed off my proverbial nut wondering if its cheaper to declare myself guiltry rather than being honest and declaring myslef not guilty.Alan willswitchengage 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig the Princess Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Never admit guilt if you are not guilty, these things have a habit of coming back and biting you in the arse. Especially as it doesn't seem to be a simple driving offence, sounds like a criminal record could be a possibility (never accept a caution). Not sure what the insurance implications would be for being convicted of that but I bet they aren't good. Do you have legal cover on your insurance? If so use it, if not contact the insurer (it is their fault after all) and get them to give you some legal assistance. Alanism, myglaren, DSdriver and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuvvum Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I would never plead guilty to something I hadn't done. I have fought the DVLA several times in court and won - they are not as all-powerful as they would like to have you believe. BeEP, Uncle Jimmy, Sudsprint and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuvvum Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Rather than pleading not guilty by post, why not "do a Bickle" and go to court in person taking all the evidence with you, then when found not guilty put a claim in against the DVLA for costs, lost wages etc. Tamworthbay, purplebargeken, myglaren and 12 others 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled_Tat_Gatherer Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 As soon as that hulk was on the truck and gone - they paid you - it was their property...……. not your fault. Not guilty - shpow 'em the pics and proof the insurance paid you.End of! purplebargeken, barefoot, Uncle Jimmy and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanism Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 Never admit guilt if you are not guilty, these things have a habit of coming back and biting you in the arse. Especially as it doesn't seem to be a simple driving offence, sounds like a criminal record could be a possibility (never accept a caution). Not sure what the insurance implications would be for being convicted of that but I bet they aren't good. Do you have legal cover on your insurance? If so use it, if not contact the insurer (it is their fault after all) and get them to give you some legal assistance. I believe I do have legal cover - It came into play in some way during the claim I recall. I'll have to triple check. It was a straight forward crash, collect, pay out incident but its worth a phone call - definitely I would never plead guilty to something I hadn't done. I have fought the DVLA several times in court and won - they are not as all-powerful as they would like to have you believe.I have read tales of your winning on these very pages I seem to recall. I think thats the problem - the letter offers me a small fine for pleading guilty and a potentially huge one with plenty of fees for not guilty. Quite an aggressive tactic. Rather than pleading not guilty by post, why not "do a Bickle" and go to court in person taking all the evidence with you, then when found not guilty put a claim in against the DVLA for costs, lost wages etc.I have considered this. If it was in some way local it would be appealing but for some reason its a stupid distance away. It does sound like a fun day out - especially if I can somehow charge DVLA for it. I did not realise that I can counter their fees. As soon as that hulk was on the truck and gone - they paid you - it was their property...……. not your fault. Not guilty - shpow 'em the pics and proof the insurance paid you.End of!This was my take on it. Even in my years of buying duff old cars this has been my opinion. Once the money changes hands its my problem. Even if it blows up on the way home its my problem (this has never actually happened but would be my thoughts). Im going to have a think. I would like to attend but the easier option would be to pass it back to the insurance company as a "its your problem, not mine" type transaction. Thinking about it I dont even know why Im filling all this paperwork in for the courts. Doing my good, scared citizen bit I guess. myglaren 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mally Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 It's only an hour and a half each way.Unless you are informed that the case has been dropped, I'd be gathering the evidence and turning up.I'd also ask that expenses be paid.If you totally rely on someone else to argue, you may well be found guilty in your absence. Alanism, myglaren, forddeliveryboy and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanism Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 It's only an hour and a half each way.Unless you are informed that the case has been dropped, I'd be gathering the evidence and turning up.I'd also ask that expenses be paid.If you totally rely on someone else to argue, you may well be found guilty in your absence.This is my worry. Im not sure how I could be found guilty in my absence but it could happen - hence my original should I just plead guilty idea. Im quite poor so the fine would be based on my poorness but costs would make a guilty verdict completely unaffordable.Im guessing I can just send what I have then wait to see if its dropped? Im not sure how I could get it dropped without sending a plea/documentation? This sort of stuff makes people ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Q Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Maybe the alleged offence was in Leeds, I would ring up the court and explain where you live, see if they can get it transferred nearer to you. But agree with the others, don't plead guilty or accept a fine, do turn up to court and politely present the evidence as to why you are not. Presumably some wrong un has cloned a car using the number plate off your old car having spotted it at copart or wherever. Ohdearme, alf892, somewhatfoolish and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytwo Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 When returning the court paperwork, include a letter to The Clerk to The Justices summarizing the facts, give sufficient evidence to show you are not at fault, and say that you will be counter claiming your costs back from the DVLA. The court will notify the DVLA that the action is being defended and that you will claim your costs back. Most people will pay the small fine, that's why its a small fine. The DVLA will not expect you to show up for the hearing. Its not about law and justice. Its about money! Pound to a pinch that the DvLA will drop the matter. Craig the Princess, barefoot, forddeliveryboy and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Did you get a certificate of destruction? mrbenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled_Tat_Gatherer Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Did you get a certificate of destruction? Again - possession of the insurance company as they literally 'paid for it' from the OP - there option to sell n or have destroyed afterwards - not the OP - Correct? egg, Mally and alf892 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just a quick thought. Is it the DVLA that is pusuing this action or is it one of those highly dubious outfits that the DVLA sell the outstanding fines onto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Not appearing at court when you are summoned can result in coercive detention and/or imprisonment for contempt.Are you summoned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuvvum Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 It wouldn't result in any kind of arrest warrant being issued for what is essentially an administrative matter at a magistrate's court. That kind of thing only happens if you skip bail on a serious criminal charge. alf892 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbenn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 As you have a letter from the insurance company confirming that they took possession of the car on a certain date/time then surely it's an open and shut case. Do not plead guilty as other offences may come to light. If you've admitted the car was in your possession/your responsibility at that time then you'll be on the hook for those, too. Can you prove where your were at the time of the alledged offence? This would help clear things up even more quickly, i.e. you would not only have proof that the car was not in your possession but also that you were elsewhere. If you're worried then take some advice from a suitably qualified solicitor. Some will give initial consultation for free. Sudsprint, Alanism and myglaren 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggersdog Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 It will be something to do with continous insurance rather than someone else driving the salvaged car around in Leeds.You didn't declare SORN when you put the private plate on retention.If you didn't receive a new number before the car was taken away how can you SORN it.Loss of earnings were capped at £95.00 plus travel and parking in 2017 when I attended court.Good luck with the case. (in my case the other party didn't show so all went my way) Alanism and myglaren 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaseracer Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I believe I do have legal cover... Then you really need to be talking to THEM, not us. Sudsprint, UltraWomble, Alanism and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanism Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 Then you really need to be talking to THEM, not us.You are 100% right. I was just looking at the summons thinking out-loud when I recieved it. I have never had any involvement in such stuff in 25 years of driving and went into panic mode. Thanks all. I'll get it sorted chaseracer, Skizzer, mrbenn and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbenn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 You are 100% right. I was just looking at the summons thinking out-loud when I recieved it. I have never had any involvement in such stuff in 25 years of driving and went into panic mode. Thanks all. I'll get it sorted Quite understandable. I'd have very quickly entered "toilet mode" and remained there for quite some time, I should think. Alanism, Sudsprint, Craig the Princess and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel bickle Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 How long do you have, before the Hearing? Assuming several weeks, bundle your evidence up, copy it and post DVLAs lawyers ( address on letterhead) a copy - asking them to drop it, nicely. Send traceable ( free proof of posting will do) Then send a 2nd identical copy to the Court, (inc a copy of Doovlas covering letter, summarising your innocence in the front sheet. Ask the case be dropped, now, please...However, if they feel your evidence doesn’t warrant dismissal, kindly transfer to a more local Court, ( make suggestion, to save Clerk effort) allowing you to attend with minimal disruption in a pressurised work environment. Add, as an aside, that you will be looking for costs, including this submission, in the event you are required to attend. If you have to go - go! The DVLA prosecutor ( nary a Solicitor, they are too cheap) will want to talk to you before the Hearing, to see if you’ve a reasonable chance of winning. They will drop your Case instantly, but you’ll get nowt - just relieved to be leaving ‘ untainted’. If you are strong enough, refuse to talk to them, go before the Court, outline your Defence, and claim your proper Costs - which could be substantive.You’ve no idea how much pain DVLA endure in sending you that cheque. And if it’s not with you in the allocated 14 days..... chaseracer, Angrydicky, Pillock and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayts450 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Might be worth getting an opinion from CAG - they were excellent in helping me get some overzealous debt collectors off my back many moons ago - some good founts of knowledge on that forum. Nothing to lose from registering and posting up your first post above on there https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?140-DVLA Alanism 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulplom Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Go to court. You'll get a chance to speak to a human from the dvla in an interview room. Show them your proof and they'll simply write it off and you'll be a free man. You can't claim your wages back from them. I've been through this shit with a personalised plate before. I notified my insurers of the plate change but they didn't update their records. I pinged quite a few anpr cameras before the dvla took me to court. Do not worry. They do have common sense face to face. Alanism 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudsprint Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Lots of excellent advice here. Alanism 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplebargeken Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Despite what the swivel-eyed loons on YouTube might indicate, the courts are still populated with fairly reasonable individuals. You have pleaded not guilty and have sent off a letter from the insurance peeps have you not? Should be end of story but a call to the court a couple of weeks or whatever before the hearing date should clarify things. Be sure you get the full name and title of the person you speak to though (always good practice no matter who you phone tbh). Good luck and keep us all updated just in case we need to sharpen the pitchforks and make torches. Rocket88 and Alanism 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy18s Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Make sure you send Copies of all your documentation.....last thing you need is for the originals to "go missing".... Alanism, Craig the Princess, mrbenn and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanism Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 Thanks everyone. Letter just off in post now. I have a couple of weeks before the hearing so hopefully this just gets dropped and I can live happily ever after. This is one of the joyous events that probably would never happen if Id not bothered insuring any of my cars. As said, hopefully it will be thrown out upon recieving the information I send through. Failing that a trip to Leeds will be worthwhile for sure. I like the point raised about the fact that I will get to speak to a dvla person in the flesh. The local(?) office in Lincoln has gone as they were my first google upon receipt of the letter. The age old "if I could only speak to a human this would be sorted in minutes" problem. purplebargeken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanism Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 Make sure you send Copies of all your documentation.....last thing you need is for the originals to "go missing"....Absolutely. Interestingly I cannot try and scrap the car on-line so I'm presuming its scrapped or re-sold. I have everything scanned and copied as things do go missing even when signed for it seems. myglaren 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 It wouldn't result in any kind of arrest warrant being issued for what is essentially an administrative matter at a magistrate's court. That kind of thing only happens if you skip bail on a serious criminal charge. A quite common misconception me and a friend of mine also used to believe. All he had done wasovserving something. Months later, he was summoned to appear at court as a witness.Since he found the date, time and location rather inconvenient, he sent them a written statement of his observations and apologised for being unable to appear in person.Imagine his surprise when the rozzers rocked up at his place, arrested him and detained him in a prison cell until the next court session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DodgeRover Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Absolutely. Interestingly I cannot try and scrap the car on-line so I'm presuming its scrapped or re-sold. I have everything scanned and copied as things do go missing even when signed for it seems.So sir if this is no longer your vehicle or responsibility why did you try and register it as scrap on line on this date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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