The Shiters guide to Vegetables ( Running on Veg)

[320touring]

The shiters guide to vegging is relatively simple:

 

Do some reading up on your particular engine - key things to be aware of etc.

 

You undertake doing this at your own risk! I don't know every pump/engine/ car combo and suitability, the below is just a run through of what I do.

 

What type of pump do you have? Generally, Bosch pumps are happier on high concentrations of veg than Lucas) Others may just be a NO.

 

Does the pump use the fuel as lubricant? If so, you may need to keep some diesel in the mix.

 

 

 

Next, make sure your engine is in tip top order - give it a service, make sure the glowplugs and circuit work well, and that the coolant system works correctly - you need the engine to warm up fully for best performance.

 

 

 

Next, check the condition of your fuel system - the fuel pickup should be clear and free flowing at the tank.

Check all lines and hoses for damage/perishing - with veg oil being thicker, the pump works harder and can draw Air in.

If in doubt, replace! Heating the fuel can thin it - some vehicles have inbuilt fuel heater circuits (e.g. my Merc)

 

Fuel filters - fit a new one.

Veg will clean detritus from the lines, so expect to change the filter a couple of times when you start running veg - just keep a spare in the boot. After the initial couple, follow the filter service interval or change more frequently.

 

 

 

Now you are ready to cook with oil

 

I tend to start cars off on a low concentration - 10-15% and ramp it up over a couple of tanks.

 

In winter, running high concentrations can be difficult, so I would aim for a 50/50 mix after 2/3 tanks and see how the car performs.

 

 

Good luck! Post your experiences and suggestions re suitable cars etc below!

[bangernomics]

Killed many cars on this stuff, but when the car costs £300 and the savings are £150 a month it soon adds up. I’d go make friends worth the local scrap yard as they’ll have a shedload of crap mixed fuel to get rid of. I used to buy petrol/diesel mix at 40p a litre and add that to new veg from batleys wholesale at 70p a litre (40p when I started) and usually summer would be 95% and winter 60-40 as petrol mix in with veg did a good job of starting.

 

No1 tip, buy cheap engine oil in 20l + tubs and very change regularly you don’t want jelly in your engine and Di engines are good at gelling. In my last one I used to Chuck it in the tank in 1-2 ltr goes too. Offset the cost of the oil then but not so green.

[lesapandre]

Tesco has oil in currently at £4.50 for 5 litres = 90p per litre. Anyone anything cheaper easily available?

[davehedgehog31]

Tam kindly posted this over on my rambling thread.

 

Farmfoods is good for Veg. 10l bottle are £10 each but if you buy 2 its £16. Also if you get the leaflet there is £5 off if you spend £50. So I buy 6 x 10 litres plus a couple of quid's worth of chocolate. Works out at roughly 72 pence a litre 

 

 

Found these farmfoods vouchers on their site. (Print them from attached PDF)

 

 

Other than that, I got some veg out of the Chinese supermarket yesterday which worked out at 82p a litre in 20L drums.

farmfoods_voucher.pdf

[lesapandre]

Thanks. I will take a look.

[The Moog]

Some relevant links

 

 

http://autoshite.com/index.php?/topic/23161-Shiter-instructables:-Winter-veg-oil-tips-and-tricks

 

http://autoshite.com/topic/17356-the-veg-oil-price-and-questionsanswerstips-thread/?fromsearch=1

 

http://autoshite.com/topic/16812-veg-friendly-motors-what-runs-on-what/?fromsearch=1

 

http://autoshite.com/topic/33083-veg/?fromsearch=1

[davehedgehog31]

I am dreadful with numbers but...

 

£16 * 5 = £80

 

£80 - £7.50 = £72.50

 

£72.50 / 100 = 72.5p / L

 

Amiright?  

[320touring]

Cars I know will handle Veg oil

 

Skoda Octavia 1 with the 90/110bhp lumps - oil filler at the left as per pic.

 

 

The same engine can be found in

Early MK4 Golfs,

Some passats/Sharan

Audi A3/4

Seat Ibiza/MK2 Toledo/Alhambra

 

As the later PD VAG engines (oil fill cap on the right) are now in cheap old beaters, some people are trying running them on Veg - the PD engines have much higher injection pressures and I'm not confident enough to recommend them - anyone any insight?

 

 

Peugeot XUD in 1.8/1.9/2.1 flavours also work well on Veg and can be found in:

205

306

405

406

Citroen Xantia and XM

 

Be aware though, They came with both Bosch and Lucas pumps - Bosch pumps are generally regarded to be more tolerant of high concentrations of veg oil.

 

Bosch Pump ( in this case one on a turbodiesel)

 

 

Lucas pump

 

 

Old mercedes stuff is also happy on veg:

 

OM601/2/3 4/5/6 cylinder mechanical pump diesels as fitted to the 190e (w201) and w124

 

OM 603

 

Later models had the OM 605/6 engine (5/6 cylinder respectively)

 

These were found in the w202 (c class) w210 (e class) models

 

[Bradders59]

I run a 190D 2.5 five cylinder on WVO. It loves it, its as though it was built for it. I run on 100% WVO in all but the coldest weather. Once it gets really cold I will add 5% petrol to thin it down and make it easier to start. A good strong battery and healthy glow plugs are a must.

It has taken me a while, but Im now in the position where I collect only really nice quality oil, which saves a lot of faffing around trying to seperate fat, water,and other assorte shite.

I get most of it free, but have to pay 25p per litre for some of it.

My filtration system is very simple and lives in the boot of the car, so I can do my filtering at work.

I  use 3 sock filters, 10/5/1 micron inside one another, with a normal kitchen sieve sat in the top to catch the bits of chips etc. to prolong the life of the filters.

Tip the oil in, collect it in a 25 litre bucket, then tip it in the tank. Couldn't be simpler. When I get around to working out how to post photos on here, I will post some up of it.

My car has done over 50,000 miles on wvo with no major problems. Personally I don't think I would bother doing it with any other car than an old 190D.

I have heard too many stories of people having all sorts of issues, but that's just my personal opinion.

 

The type of filters I use. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FILTER-SOCK-3X28-MIXED-3-BAG-SET-WVO-VEG-OIL-BIODIESEL-COOKING-OIL-ENGINE-OIL/173674438457?hash=item286fcd9f39:g:oDsAAOSwrklVL568:rk:4:pf:0

[Lacquer Peel]

My WVO is too far away and I have no storage here, sad.

 

The Passat runs pretty well on veg but I need to trick the engine management into switching the glow plugs on for longer.

 

The later ALH/AVG builds of the 1.9 TDI seem a bit better on veg, I'm not sure why. IIRC my ALH Caddy had biodiesel written on fuel flap sticker, maybe they made some changes to the engine for plant fuel use.

[forddeliveryboy]

Pre-PD VAG TDi is best ime. There are lots of factors beyond whether it's Bosched or not - indeed many Bosch pumps are copies of Lucas so not so great.

 

The OM602/3 engines definitely have the best pumps for pumping gloop since they're lubricated by engine oil and are 5/6 little pistons in a line. They also start brilliantly sub-zero and fire evenly on very high veg% when other engines struggle, even with electronic brains adjusting everything 100 times a second. But the engine cylinder design is bad for gloopy fuel - it's short stroke and high revving. Many have suffered ring gumming, the 605/6 is even worse for this. Timing is usually retarded through chain stretch/wear, which makes partial combustion even more of a bother.

 

It's also very awkward to move the filter head so larger filters can be used and away from the icy blast of air, the fuel tanks are steel with an anti-corrosion paint which veg can attack (so constantly blocking filters). Then there's the business of replacing glow plugs, a once every 30k job when vegging - it's not a particularly awkward job but comes as a bit of a shock to anyone used to VAG TDi. Allow two-three hours. Best diesel engine ever for long, high speed trips though. Sitting at a steady 110mph slurping 10p/l veg is a good feeling, knowing you're saving something like £25/hr.

 

The VAG inline 5 as in 850s and S/V70s is a bastard to start below ~12C on high veg%, but so much more satisfying than suffering the drone of a 4 pot. Engine preheating is the answer. They last well and are fast for an old diesel. My favourite, partially because there's plenty of engine bay room for a fphe, and the filter's huge too.

 

Note that the GM soya oil tends to cause carbon deposits on injector tips if run at approaching 100% and under 4C it starts thickening rapidly. Rape seed oil is way, way better, gelling at below -10C and burning more cleanly.

[Lacquer Peel]

 

 

The VAG inline 5 as in 850s and S/V70s is a bastard to start below 5C on high veg%

 

 

 

EFA. I've found them next to useless on a high percentage of veg in the winter.

[lesapandre]

Anybody ever tried olive oil? I'm in Spain sometime with my Landcruiser so not sure what bulk purchases of 100 litres plus would be costwise wholesale? 

 

Not sure of the reaction either if I pour litres of their finest in the tank?

 

This would be a kind of last resort thing if way off the beaten track and low on fuel.

 

Anybody tried mixing kerosene or paraffin with oil?

[dozeydustman]

I would assume I can't fire up the JTD in my Saab on veg

[Lacquer Peel]

Anybody ever tried olive oil? I'm in Spain sometime with my Landcruiser so not sure what bulk purchases of 100 litres plus would be costwise wholesale? 

 

Not sure of the reaction either if I pour litres of their finest in the tank?

 

This would be a kind of last resort thing if way off the beaten track and low on fuel.

 

Anybody tried mixing kerosene or paraffin with oil?

 

I think it'd be okay as a one off, but olive oil is gloopy and has a high boiling point, not the best for fuelling a diesel engine unless modified.

Kerosene or paraffin is ideal for mixing with oil but it's quite illegal in the UK.

[shedenvy]

I would assume I can't fire up the JTD in my Saab on veg

I'm an interested party too though in Fiat flavour. In general is Common rail + SVO destined for failure? I thought that as per pd injectors the plunger of the common rail pumps are largely lubricated by the diesel so SVO didn't guarantee the same lubeification. Other concerns would be seal materials throughout the fuel system.

Anyway proof of the pudding, anyone actually run anything Common rail on veg?

[Lacquer Peel]

Some people braver than me have experimented with veg in common rail injection diesels.

The main problem is starting from cold on thick gloopy fuel, once the engine is hot veg away.

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm an interested party too though in Fiat flavour. In general is Common rail + SVO destined for failure? I thought that as per pd injectors the plunger of the common rail pumps are largely lubricated by the diesel so SVO didn't guarantee the same lubeification. Other concerns would be seal materials throughout the fuel system.

Anyway proof of the pudding, anyone actually run anything Common rail on veg?

Tolerances have reduced, pressures have risen, component robustness has fallen. A lot. But if the fuel is properly dried, polished and thinned to near diesel levels then problems are less likely so long as there's no DPF. Which means a realistic max veg percentage under 70, I'd guess. With a set of spare injectors and a pair of pumps I'll be trying veg in the D5 at some point.

 

The place to read and ask is the vegetableoildiesel.co.uk forum, I think a good few members are running PDs on high veg %s. Some stories of CR too, I remember a guy posting ten years ago about his newish Merc which he'd run 50:50 year round, to everyone's interest.

 

 

Kerosene or paraffin is ideal for mixing with oil but it's quite illegal in the UK.

Quite [sic] so. Treated as tax evasion, you'd wish it were the police involved if ever caught, read the forums. Same goes for selling homebrew fuel as road vehicle fuel. Revenue'n'Customs can come and take your home off you if your bank card doesn't cough up quickly. Scary stuff. They employ staff to trawl public forums, Google makes their job pretty easy.

[oldcars]

Tried the 75 on veg once. Looked in the tank and saw a massive leek....................................

[shedenvy]

When I worked at Delphi we used an oil near enough identical to kerosene to test truck injectors.

Years later our oil tank for the house was near empty and I was very tempted to go out and get 10L of diesel just to tide us through the sale of the house but in the end chickened out. Lots of professionals saying the jet wouldn't work with the different viscosity. I guess in this case I would be paying fuel duty for domestic heating so wouldn't be an issue?

Regardless I should probably shut up now before the google bots become aware.

[davehedgehog31]

Can confirm plentiful stock in Farmfoods Cumbernauld.

 

Got one more potential source to check out, the Asian cash and carry in finnieston. Potentially sub 70 pence a litre!

 

This is a good game.

[lesapandre]

Can confirm plentiful stock in Farmfoods Cumbernauld.

 

Got one more potential source to check out, the Asian cash and carry in finnieston. Potentially sub 70 pence a litre!

 

This is a good game.

I make that 80p a litre. Not bad. We have a Farmfoods here in Walthamstow in London.

[catsinthewelder]

There are 10% off vouchers for farmfoods further up the page so potentially 72ppl.

[somewhatfoolish]

When I worked at Delphi we used an oil near enough identical to kerosene to test truck injectors.

Years later our oil tank for the house was near empty and I was very tempted to go out and get 10L of diesel just to tide us through the sale of the house but in the end chickened out. Lots of professionals saying the jet wouldn't work with the different viscosity. I guess in this case I would be paying fuel duty for domestic heating so wouldn't be an issue?

Regardless I should probably shut up now before the google bots become aware.

A boiler set up for kerosene(28 second oil, often called paraffin although really that's something else again) will have a skinnier nozzle than one set up for dizzle(35 second oil),  as the smaller number means it's runnier. It should run but may have an unstable flame and smoke a bit.

[davehedgehog31]

Managed to nip into the Asian supermarket in Finnieston at lunchtime. 

 

A good source, it's £14.49 for 20 litres, works out at 72p a litre. It also comes in two 10L drums, easier to decant into your tank. It was actually on sale last week at £13.99 up until last week, missed the boat! 

 

They have massive trolleys and you wouldn't look like a psychopath buying 20 of them.

 

They also had a massive wall of joob joobs.

 

 

 

[rainagain]

I ran a mk1 Clio with a Lucas pump on veg. I fitted a fuel swap over valve and had a diesel tank on the boot. I also removed the stat from the heated fuel filter so it was heating the fuel all the time. I would start it on diesel and using a temp gauge I fitted to the pump I’d switch over to veg once it was warm enough. Then a couple of miles before the end of my journey I would switch back to diesel to clean the veg out. This meant I could run on high % of veg even with the wrong pump right through winter.

 

I never got round to trying it but I heard on the veg oil forums that acetone was great for thinning the fuel and you only needed a small bit to make a big difference.

 

Here’s a pic showing the valve mounted on the inner wing and the wiring for the temp sensors is the black wires tie wrapped to the fuel lines

 

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AufIzI2OYPpK3ld1n3WIISWrSw2p

[M'coli]

I ran a XUD9T with a Lucas pump on 50-60% WVO for 20,000 miles with no apparent ill effects. I did slap a strip of duct tape over the lower bonnet vent - the upper vent fed the intercooler, the lower one the top of the radiator - to help keep the pump and fuel warm during cold or wet conditions.

[SierraMikeHotel]

I used to lob the occasional 5 litre bottle of veg into my old BX when it was cheaper than diesel - which actually isn't very often, these days.

 

Way back then my grandma was still alive and she quite enjoyed using her deep fat fryer so I'd drain the leavings from that through a coffee filter and chuck them into the car too. At those concentrations it probably wouldn't do any harm, and although I loved that car its value at that time basically relied on how much fuel was in the tank.

 

Am I likely to kill my W203 C220 CDI by using similar tiny amounts? Or is it best to just leave well alone?

[forddeliveryboy]

Way back then my grandma was still alive and she quite enjoyed using her deep fat fryer so I'd drain the leavings from that through a coffee filter and chuck them into the car too. At those concentrations it probably wouldn't do any harm, and although I loved that car its value at that time basically relied on how much fuel was in the tank.

 

Am I likely to kill my W203 C220 CDI by using similar tiny amounts? Or is it best to just leave well alone?

Not if it's clean, dry oil but any hint of dissolved water which no filter will seperate and you're going to risk knackering things. The odd slurp of 2 or 3 litres of damp oil could become a problem.

 

I don't even really like using supermarket oil, it only filtered to around 10u (and the smaller the particle, the more damage it can do) and is often wetter than dried waste oil.

 

 

I ran a mk1 Clio with a Lucas pump on veg. I fitted a fuel swap over valve and had a diesel tank on the boot. I also removed the stat from the heated fuel filter so it was heating the fuel all the time. It meant I could run on high % of veg even with the wrong pump right through winter.

 

I never got round to trying it but I heard on the veg oil forums that acetone was great for thinning the fuel and you only needed a small bit to make a big difference.

 

Twin tanking, with a heat exchanger for good oil once the engine's warmed up should be sufficient for many common rail systems, let alone an old mechanical Lucas.

 

Use Acetone to thin the fuel and you'll soon wreck things, it dissolves stuff fast! Instead it's added in tiny amounts (0.15% by vol) to reduce surface tension which creates better atomisation, so better performance and economy. It also steadily helps clear up carbon and any other muck.

[M'coli]

Have a festive video of a cold-start on 50/50 veg: