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It is just so Super (Sentinel).

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138 replies to this topic

#121 ONLINE   DodgeRover

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 06:10 PM

That picture looks a little too busy with the western style font.

This place has been pretty much unchanged as long as I can remember
French's ironmongery Eckington

image.jpg

Incidentally if there is something you need they will have it!
NB I haven't been in for a couple of years so my have changed.
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#122 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:28 AM

A quick update. There are times when a lot gets done but there isn't a lot of visible progress.

 

However, this is reasonably visible. First fit of the front axle beam hanging on by the skin of its teeth. This is meant to be held in with a slice of 1/2" plate and 4 off 3/4" whit bolts. There will also be a 1" packing piece between the axle mount and the spring. This was to lift the chassis up to increase clearance when they converted them from solids to pneumatics. This will do for starters.

 

45982603931_fecbe5360d_o.jpg

 

You should start to get an idea of how the front axle works. Badly, mainly.

 

45982612551_db40a6cb95_o.jpg

 

Can't see the join. The bend is so it fits around the boiler. These were forged originally so they looked a little rough and ready. We've tried to replicate this. Once the paint is on it you wouldn't tell the difference.

 

45982612111_c4f5d5702c_o.jpg

 

So now the beam is in place we can go back to these bits which have lain on the floor for a few months while other things were done. A swivel. You see the big hole in the axle beam? That takes the pivot pin. Then the stub axles go through the big hole in the swivel. Ovbiously there are a few bronze bushes needed too.

 

45982615991_546d2d01c9_o.jpg

 

The other thing that has been started is the cab. The footplate was cut and fitted a few weeks back so now we are happy with the curve on that all the other bits of the front apron copy it. This is the 1" angle that takes the bottom of the apron plate. Bending angle is a right pain in the arse and it takes a lot of heating and tweaking to get it right. Actually, bending angle is a piece of proverbial if you have bending rolls that can take angle but we don't so we have to freehand it.

 

A bit of 1" angle. Wow.

 

45982610111_7fb65bb876_o.jpg

 

See the 12 foot radius on the front section? Important bit that. It's what makes a Super look like a Super.

 

The next bit is trickier. The angle sets the shape at the bottom of the cab but at the top where the roof is there is the ash bend. This was originally bent from a 3"x1" section of ash which was steamed and bent to shape. This wasn't very durable and if you look at period photographs (and a fair few current ones) you'll see ash bends bodged back together with plate, chewing gum and string. When we did the last one we fabricated the ash bend in steel which is somewhat more long lasting even if it is a bit of a pain to build.

 

There is a length of 1" box section at the top and the same at the bottom. There is then 3"x 1/8th flat section on the vertical faces. Tack it all together, make it look pretty and no one would ever tell the difference. Easy to say, takes a bit longer to do. It is made easier because you are trying to replicate the curves and angles of the footplate which means you have a handy, very stiff and just at the right height jig to work from. You should be able to make out the top and bottom box sections and the front vertical being tacked into place. I was actually in the process of taking it off at this point which is why there are almost no clamps on it. You never have enough clamps. Please be a tiny bit impressed with the shape. We're pretty pleased with that.

 

45982606351_588c12cc66_o.jpg

 

And the same from the other side. It got bigger than this after the picture was taken because it extends to the rear of the cab.

 

45070706895_9dd6d88f15_o.jpg

 

Check out the curves on that. There is a lot of welding, grinding and fettling to go before it looks plausible. Good start, though.

 

45070706285_f652c65637_o.jpg

 

Things to think about while you are working. Express is falling out of favour, BTW.

 

We now have a Sentinel drawing for a van body which looks pretty good and shouldn't be too horrific to buy the wood for so it's definitely having a big box body on it. By the way - look at the top picture (photocopied out of a sales brochure which explains the flowery language) see the rail running around the roof of the cab? That's the ash bend. This picture isn't a perfect representation of what they actually made but it is a very good image to keep you on track while you try to work out what goes where.

 

45070704695_2e973bcba4_o.jpg

 

Drawings from the archives. Most of the information is in there as long as you take everything with a pinch of salt.

 

45982606811_00fd8f00d2_o.jpg

 

This, for example is the rear hub for the pnuematic converstion. Make two of these and you've nearly got a back axle. Doddle. Ish.

 

45982604891_46b1e4299b_o.jpg

 

Finally today the stiffening plate for the rear drawbar. A chunk of 1/4" plate which will be held in with 23 5/8" rivets. The bits of channel are what the water tank will hang from.

 

45982614381_43affdca8b_o.jpg

 

What's next:

 

Cab uprights to get bent

Front footplate to cut around steering box

Boiler to drop in

Front axle to get on with

Ash bend to finish

Wood cutting list to finalise

 

 

 


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#123 ONLINE   Hooli

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 12:18 PM

My new favourite thread :)


Opinions expressed are those of this cunt, not any other cunt. They do not represent the views of those responsible for this forum.
Like any true Englishman I'm never unintentionally rude. If you're offended by this post, good as that is what was my intention.

 

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#124 OFFLINE   stonedagain

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 01:48 PM

Excellent thread! Thanks for sharing with us.

#125 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:37 AM

A quick update from the last couple of weeks' work.

 

One of the front axle swivels being fitted up. The big bit in the middle is the axle which turns in the plain bronze bushes. Lubrication of the axle is by grease which is fed down the top of the "king pin" via a copper pipe from a screw down greaser in the cab. Give each grease pot a turn every few miles.

 

31219331517_b944b557d5_o.jpg

 

Another view. The taper takes the front hub and then there is a jolly big nut which is rattled up with a very butch impact driver to keep it all together.

 

46158808331_a7b257085c_o.jpg

 

The bronze bush is stepped so you have a decent face to take the thrust. Normally these would be cast but when you aren't making many it is more cost efficient just to use cored bar. However, there are still a lot of cuttings. Non-ferrous cuttings get collected and weighed in. This is what the engine and front axle has yielded so far.

 

45434864054_89f6767707_o.jpg

 

Slight change of plan. The was to get rivetted in but we had no confidence that we could weedle white hot rivets into the holes from underneath without making a mess of them or killing ourselves. I suspect in the factory they turned the frames on their sides. We can't do that so the stiffening plate has been bolted in. It's not as if we are going to be towing anything, anyway. The two bits of channel are also bolted down. That is what the water tank is suspended from.

 

46158807271_d7a14a2b65_o.jpg

 

The ash bend is getting there. It's taken a fair bit of bending, cutting, welding and grinding to get it to this stage.

 

44341635130_47219909d7_o.jpg

 

Slowly it starts to look like the piece of 1" thick ash it is meant to be. There is a lot more fettling to go yet but you can only do so much of this before you get bored and do something else for a bit.

 

31219314017_f9e133e373_o.jpg

 

After a lot of cutting, grinding, measuring, grinding, trial fitting, grinding, grinding and grinding the boiler is in. Now it starts to look like a steamer. The stub at the top is the chimney base.

 

44341638000_d5ed6aa55a_o.jpg

 

And from the rear. The chequer plate is pretty much the area of the cab so you start to get a feel for how much of the cab is filled with a very large, very hot boiler. It tends to dominate the interior almost as much as the centre console does in a Panamera. The red box is the feed heater. I know it looks like it is just sitting there but the footplate has been cut to take the varius tappings and fixings on the bottom. The large piece of channel at the rear is temporary. That will be replaced with a large piece of oak.

 

31219313277_38d7b1eecc_o.jpg

 

All neat and tidy round the footplate. Bottom angle is on to stay on hopefully. When these things were built production engineering was in its infancy and companies like Sentinel struggled to engineer their way out of a paper bag at times. This means that fits and tolerances tend to be a little wouldn't hold small coal. Historically inaccurate possibly but the thought of having gapping holes around the boiler mounts offended me. The boiler will need to come out once everything is piped up so it can be lagged.

 

44341635690_7698c17f3b_o.jpg

 

The wood for the cab has been ordered. That was pretty painful.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#126 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 10:18 AM

Another update. First some revision. This is the engine suspension plate - what used to pass for an engine mount was a large slab of 3/8" plate stamped to shape. We don't have a very large press and nor do we have the wherewithal to make the dies for the sake of two bits so they need to be fabricated. Get some 3/8 plate waterjet cut to the right shape and then fold some 1/2" flat bar around the edge. Now sit down and burn some rods into it to keep things in place. Then get some half round section and weld these in place to replicate the stiffening ribs that were pressed into it. Once you have done this then do it again because you need two of them. What you end up with is something like this...

 

42469936081_6ae0f61f57_z.jpg

 

Which is pretty close but not there yet. Now lay them to one side because you are bored of welding and grinding and do something else instead. Allow job to mature for a few months and then go back to it. Now you sit down with a range of grindning discs, cutting dics, burrs, stones and flapwheels and you make it look pretty. Finally finish of with as thin as you can manage filler to take out any minor imperfections. And then you end up with this. It doesn't look it in this photo but that filler is near non-existent. Irritatingly it looks like we're some sort of back street bodgers.

 

46300057072_8e516dce72_z.jpg

 

And then you do it again because there are two of them. Now the suspension plates are done you probably noticed that it is possible to fit the engine. And that is the other big advance over the last couple of weeks. It now has an engine partially installed. It should now be a lot more clear about how it is set out. There is a sprocket on each end of the crankshaft that drives each back wheel on a dead axle. Note empty coffee mug. There is no heating in the big shed and it was brass monkeys this weekend.

 

44533816010_e932341c3a_z.jpg

 

When the chassis rails were drilled they were welded together and drilled as a pair so everything slipped in just spot on. This is very handy because moving a ton of engine around is best avoided. It is only partially installed because the front end is sitting on blocks. The sprockets are on just as a sanity check to allow us to stike a line down the chassis to super double check everything was lying square.

 

45438303625_54d16bf4e2_z.jpg

 

The front engine mount is a bit involved so that is on the jobs to do list. The bit of 4" channel you see sitting above the engine in the picture up the page is part of it. There are also gusset plates to make and stiffening bars to bend up for it. Then the whole lot hangs on two 1/2" bolts.

 

And from the rear. See the two bits of bar sticking up? That was this weekend's effort.

 

44533814970_bba3e066ce_z.jpg

 

The cab is constructed along very similar lines to any of the great coachbuilders using techniques learned over generations of coach design for road and rail. Few realise that the cab of the Super Sentinel is very close in design and quality to the Gold State Coach. Oh no, my mistake. You know those sheds that B&Q try to sell you? The ex-demo models that were nailed together by the work experience kid? Yeah, well that kid would think the Super's cab was a bit jerry built.

 

We've done the footplate and ash bend so now we need to join them together and we do this with three bits of 1/4" flat bar. First get them bent in a press brake to the right angle. Then get them done again because the company you trusted with the work couldn't read a drawing. Now you have the uprights you need to fit them so start heating and hitting things to get the right shape. The sides are relatively easy so twist out the bottom of the upright unitil it is straight again. Now bolt the upright to the bottom angle. Sentinel considered this mess to be an acceptable method of construction.

 

45438301085_c5cb94cf5d_z.jpg

 

There is five feet of bar above that joint. Quality, eh? And yes I know all the bolts are too long. This is a first fit.

 

45627523974_a7ded612b7_z.jpg

 

The front is harder because there is a dog-leg in it half way up. In period these would have been forged but we had to resort to cutting and welding. The countersunk set screws are temporary. They will be replaced with rivets as soon as they arrive.

 

45627523344_7704885195_z.jpg

 

Once you have cut and welded and ground and twisted it int the right shape you need to do it again because there is a second section at the back to stiffen it up.

 

45627522824_d494e5d42b_z.jpg

 

By now it is Saturday evening and just before you knock off you mount all three uprights only to find that in the morning you picked up the wrong upright to work on so what you have done is made some very pretty things to go in the scrap bucket. This means that tomorrow you are going to have to do it all again. This is very depressing. The pictures above are of the right ones rather than the wrong ones. There's nothing like wasting a day to put you in a happy place. Check twice, cut once eh?

 

The next thing to do is work out how to square everything up and then balance the ash bend up there while it gets fitted. None of this is going to be easy.

 

45627522334_a254c4a427_z.jpg

 

In other news large mounts of swarf get produced. It should be on its front wheels in the not too distant future.

 

45627521604_3eb851e2f7_z.jpg

 

With a bit more luck we should need to traipse down to Staffordshire this week to pick up large amounts of oak, poplar and ash to make the cab and roof. Then it will really look like a Super.


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#127 ONLINE   Saabnut

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 10:34 AM

I just love this thread, when it is complete I am going to travel down from Aberdeenshire to drool over it and worship at your feet! Fantastic!


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#128 ONLINE   Supernaut

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 10:35 AM

Will this be attending SF19, then?


Also, I'd join you on that trip Saabnut!
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I don't have a 320touring, but I have a 320coupe.

#129 OFFLINE   somewhatfoolish

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 11:31 AM

[schadenfreude]

I'm glad it's not just me who spends days making part X and part Y only to realise I've actually made 2 of part X and need to start from scratch as they need to fit each other. 


post-9424-0-06631200-1530529320.jpg


#130 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 12:07 PM

It was worse than that. I'd made one of part X which was meant to be Y. I'd also made one of part Y which was meant to be X. Sadly the difference bewteen X and Y was a mere 11 degrees. A small but vital difference.



#131 OFFLINE   Mally

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 05:30 PM

I thought it was only me that did things like that.


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#132 OFFLINE   tooSavvy

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 05:41 PM

I thought it was only me that did things like that.


Thort Ovallers needed a cock eye set up? Permanently turning left.. :/
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Wallsend?.....it's not the End of the Walled ;<)

35942490325_0815d58667.jpgSUCKS


#133 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:51 AM

Been having to do some work and stuff of late so been a couple of weeks since the last update.

 

Firstly, here is the front support for the engine. 22 off 5/8" bolts, some 4" channel, 5/16" thick gusset plates and a couple of bits of 1/2" thick plate cut to form the stiffeners. All to hang the engine from 2 1/2" whit studs. It is not difficult to see why Sentinel kept going bust. 

 

45974348794_74e6b04bff_z.jpg

 

And from the front. It's a lot of metal to do not very much.

 

45974347834_509ff59f1e_z.jpg

 

Work on the front axle continues. Near side...

 

45974346434_06fb411551_z.jpg

 

And offside. There is a bit of an update which you can't see that replaces the large bronze thrust face for the swivel with a modern ball thrust race. When they changed from solids to pneumatics it sent the geometry to cock and made the steering much heavier. A ball thrust race on the swivel helps lighten things up a little.

 

31757604227_bd843611f6_z.jpg

 

We were lent a pattern for the steam brake cylinder so this will get taken to the foundry.

 

31757602577_c657095e89_z.jpg

 

And we picked up the last few bits for the fire grates and a clack valve body casting.

 

31757601477_ef309ff463_z.jpg

 

And the front apron got cut and fitted. Two words. Fucking and nightmare. This took a couple of days to do and it isn't there yet. Also note ash bend lifted into place. That wasn't easy either. Sorry about the odd angle but there was something in the way.

 

32824209938_85f27707b9_z.jpg

 

Once the ash bend is in place you can start finalising things like the top of the uprights.

 

46646286562_46e0fabca7_z.jpg

 

And then comes the bogey job. This is something that has exercised us for about 25 years. The last time we did one of these we had a tin basher who knew his stuff do this bit but in the spirit of self-improvement we'll have to do it ourselves this time. I need to get better at tinbashing anyway. I'll labour this bit because it is probably about the only thing relevant to AS.

 

What you have is a curved front plate and a windscreen that is a straight line bewteen the uprights. This leaves you a very odd shape to fill in. My spacial awareness is less than good and it makes my head hurt to look at it. Fill that gap in there. Ignore the bits of angle and studding. That's just form work to allow me to get stuff square.

 

31758041577_0ddb1a3608_z.jpg

 

The shape of the cheek plates is critical to make these things look right. But is is OK because we have a drawing from the Sentinel archive. This should tell us everything we need to know.

 

31757598627_1c8bb0815f_z.jpg

 

Well, we'll see...

 

So you look at the job and you think and you look and then your head hurts so you just decide to make a start. Job one. Make a development as shown in the drawing. Only I'll do it in a bit of scrap 0.6mm ali sheet to test the theory. Then you come up against the first problem. You see that development drawing? Well it's bollocks. This leaves you looking at a bit of rolled up aluminium wondering where to go. Then in a flash of inspiration it dawns on you that it can be treated as three separate sections so you grab the tinsnips and start bending things over your knee to help you visualise stuff and you end up with this.

 

32824209298_6f8b0ef5eb_z.jpg

 

Yes I know it is a mess but that's not really the point. It got it straight in my head where I was going with it. So we need three bits of steel biffed and bashed and welded together. Off we go. First bit of 18 gauge.

 

46698985561_dce447a9e6_z.jpg

 

And you roll and you hammer and you hammer some moreuntil the metal starts to go in the right direction. This is the stage that you look at what you have done and weep because it looks for all the world like some maniac has attacked a bit of sheet steel with a ball pein hammer. There is probably a reason for that. However, keep the faith because with a lot more biffing it will start to look alright. I hope. It is a bit hard to see in this picture but there is a curve on the apron which is why I was trying to stretch the metal to match it. 

 

45974337784_0ce228222b_z.jpg

 

That's one side so now do the other end to seeif you are going in the right direction. Now we're getting somewhere. That just leaves the bit in the middle.

 

45974338934_0b4175ecc5_z.jpg

 

Now the one thing I thought could be trusted on the drawings was the 9" radius. That's what I had been working to.So you leather hell out of a bit of sheet to beat a compound curve into it with a 9" radius. This is what I ended up with. The middle section has already had a fair bit of working so it looked reasonably right. The bottom edge is all over the place because there is plenty of spare on it.

 

45974342154_aec2e21e79_z.jpg

 

So now you have three bits you break out the gas welder and start butting things together. I find this a bit of a struggle because I am not blessed with the steadiest hands in the world. I was only tacking it at this point.

 

45974341584_e6fb89f63c_z.jpg

 

To the untrained (and my) eye this looks not bad at all so you are feeling pretty good to have made this progress and you take a step back to admire your work and see how things look.

 

The answer was that it looked complete shite. Not even a little bit right. The drawing further up the page is a complete work of fiction. There is then a clang as two days' work lands in the scrap pile. Bollocks.

 

A few days' later we manage to get hold of a very dog eared one to copy. At least I've had some practice now. Fortunately the curves are much more shallow than I had been making so things won't need to be hit as much.

 

46646283422_b154e1d0e5_z.jpg

 

We wasted a day this week to drive down south to pick up the wood for the cab. As discussed elsewhere on here there is some oak for the bearers and frame, ash for the roof beams (we're going to need to learn how to steam bend it) and a large pile of poplar for the back, sides and roof. Not going to be stuck for something to do for a while.

 

31757599977_beaa6fc1a0_z.jpg

 

Lastly a couple of semi-insteresting S bits. After taking it out for a run a couple of weeks ago we became suspicious that not everything was tickety boo in the transmission case (which is actually just another bit of the crankcase. The boring answer was that there was insufficient float in the bottom gear layshaft. A two minute job to sort out. Pop the end cover off, set the float, pop it back on. But first remove the flywheel. That involves removing the propshaft and that involves shifting the rear axle back by three inches. *Bangs head*

 

This is the propshaft. Those who know their lorries might appreciate the torque it has been specced for. That is a five ton bottle jack sitting next to it which should gie an idea of scale. One person cannot lift it.

 

46646276252_da0fc63a32_z.jpg

 

And a quick look insode what used to pass for a gearbox. The lever you see at the back is the linkage for the variable valve timing.

 

46646274512_d8018e8559_z.jpg

 

Hopefully the next update will have some slightly more positive news.


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#134 OFFLINE   tooSavvy

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:15 PM

Boatbuilders do steam-bending... There must be a YooToob?

The guys who are building some Noahs Ark thing, using tradidional methods - the ones who cast a 4 1/2ton lead keel!!
I'm sure they have steamed some hull planking ;)


Wallsend?.....it's not the End of the Walled ;<)

35942490325_0815d58667.jpgSUCKS


#135 OFFLINE   somewhatfoolish

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 03:32 PM

We wasted a day this week to drive down south to pick up the wood for the cab. As discussed elsewhere on here there is some oak for the bearers and frame, ash for the roof beams (we're going to need to learn how to steam bend it) and a large pile of poplar for the back, sides and roof. Not going to be stuck for something to do for a while.

Wear gloves, or grow asbestos skin. :D

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#136 ONLINE   Hooli

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 04:59 PM

Didn't one of our boat building members steam some planks for a rowboat recently? Squirrel2 I think it was. Somewhere in the boatshite thread anyway, they made a steamer out of a wallpaper stripper I think.


Opinions expressed are those of this cunt, not any other cunt. They do not represent the views of those responsible for this forum.
Like any true Englishman I'm never unintentionally rude. If you're offended by this post, good as that is what was my intention.

 

Champion cunt in the cunt count 2018.


#137 OFFLINE   JimH

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 05:04 PM

That seems to be a deal. Make a former so you have something to clamp your bendy bit of wood to then make a steamer using a wallpaper stripper and a length of 4" uPVC drain pipe. Leave the wood in the steamer to stew for a couple of hours then whip it out, clamp it to the former and leave it for three days to sort itself out.

 

Simplicity itself. What could possibly go wrong?


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#138 ONLINE   Hooli

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 05:10 PM


Simplicity itself. What could possibly go wrong?

 

Creak, snap!

If I can find the post I'm thinking of I'll add a link as it had some handy tips for avoiding the above.


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#139 OFFLINE   somewhatfoolish

somewhatfoolish

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:49 PM

Steaming is dead traditional, but tbh laminating with epoxy(or any other modern adhesive) is a lot easier and less likely to involve parboiling hands.

post-9424-0-06631200-1530529320.jpg






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