Rave's Passat 1.9TDI - 3/2/20 More alternator bodgery

[Captain Furious]

For the reverse sensors check that the reverse lights are actually coming on, if not its probably the gearbox switch.  The first I knew of it failing in my Mondeo was that the reversing sensors stopped working.

[Rave]

Thanks, I will check that. It still makes a loud bleep when you stick it in reverse though, it then just doesn't bleep when you reverse up close to something, I tested it just now with a wheely bin as a suitably soft target. I guess if the bulb has gone that could possibly have broken the circuit, or something.

[Captain Furious]

Ah ok, mine stopped making the bleep when you selected reverse too.  If its beeping it obviously knows reverse has been selected and therefore the gearbox switch must be fine.

[AMC Rebel]

Thanks, I will check that. It still makes a loud bleep when you stick it in reverse though, it then just doesn't bleep when you reverse up close to something, I tested it just now with a wheely bin as a suitably soft target. I guess if the bulb has gone that could possibly have broken the circuit, or something.

 On my Jaaags and Land Rover, single long bleep on gear selection indicates it knows there is a fault.  If same as these, put into reverse (engine off) ign on and put your ear next to each sensor in turn.  You will hear clicking from the working ones, dead one will be silent.  If all are clicking you have a wiring fault.

 

Dunno about VAG but if you have a really super manufacturer specific code reader you can (on some) get the reader to tell you where the fault is.  Maybe.

[dome]

Thanks, I will have a look at some point then- I was also idly thinking about doing all the front suspension arms having seen your write up on the job. You can buy a kit that contains all 8 of them and all new bolts etc. on ebay for a smidge over a ton, are they likely to be made of cheese? Any recommendations for where to get decent parts and which ones are most likely to be worn if so?

 

 

I used Meyle HD ones which I'm a a fan of, they are good quality but don't break the bank. Saying that I was about £100 just for the top arms...

On a budget I have no idea, for a cheap runner I'd wager the £100 set will be better than what you have on there at the minute though. 

 

Autodoc is quite cheap but they take ages to ship stuff. If you're not in a rush I'd recommend them. 

 

Mind you, how much MOT is on it? Have a prod and see how worn yours actually is before spending money.

[Rave]

 On my Jaaags and Land Rover, single long bleep on gear selection indicates it knows there is a fault.  If same as these, put into reverse (engine off) ign on and put your ear next to each sensor in turn.  You will hear clicking from the working ones, dead one will be silent.  If all are clicking you have a wiring fault.

 

Dunno about VAG but if you have a really super manufacturer specific code reader you can (on some) get the reader to tell you where the fault is.  Maybe.

 

I must admit that I was skeptical about this but blimey, you're right. Three clicking, nearside corner one silent.

 

So next question, what do I do now?

 

I used Meyle HD ones which I'm a a fan of, they are good quality but don't break the bank. Saying that I was about £100 just for the top arms...

On a budget I have no idea, for a cheap runner I'd wager the £100 set will be better than what you have on there at the minute though. 

 

Autodoc is quite cheap but they take ages to ship stuff. If you're not in a rush I'd recommend them. 

 

Mind you, how much MOT is on it? Have a prod and see how worn yours actually is before spending money.

 

Just gone to check the MOT but the government site seems to be down. From memory it's some time in December. Basically the nearside front seems rather willing to break traction, it will do it accelerating over bumps, and I had a bit of an arse-puckering moment on a run to Gatwick when, trying to beat the lights coming off the M23 I nipped up the inside lane (there's a big sign that says "Use both lanes for Airport"), only to find the idiot in the outside lane steering into mine as they entered the roundabout. Cue an application of brakes followed by a shuddering lockup and a near miss. Clearly the tyres being on their last legs won't be helping, but my gut feeling from having driven plenty of other old shitters on crap tyres is that the suspension is doing a poor job of keeping control of that wheel. The damper could well be completely past it, it looks pretty old.

 

I think what I'll do it just replace the fronts for now, and see how the MOT goes. The tightwad in me wants to just rotate the tyres as there's about 3mm on the rears, but I need decent tyre on the front to 1) see if the suspension really is jiggered and 2) to be a smidge less dangerous until I get round to sorting it if it is.

 

I guess I should have the tracking done if I change any suspension bits? Is it worth coughing up for a proper alignment, is there much/any adjustment on these?

 

Edit: aha, gov site back working now. MOT expires 22nd December. By the sounds of it I should probably start with the damper and the ARB bushes. Are these jobs I can do on my driveway, anyone know? I've previously changed the damper on the mac strut setup on the front of a Clio, so I have spring compressors, but these are a slightly different kettle of fish, clearly.

 

• Nearside Front Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)
• Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin nearside and offside (3.5.1g)
• Front brake disc worn, pitted or scored, but not seriously weakened nearside and offside (3.5.1i)
• Rear brake disc worn, pitted or scored, but not seriously weakened nearside and offside (3.5.1i)
• Front Anti-roll bar linkage rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement nearside and offside (2.4.G.2)

[Rave]

Hmm. Found a video on youtube from Autodoc which makes changing the front dampers look a piece of piss- just undo the bolts at each end and pull it out, don't even need to compress the springs on the car, apparently. They do Bilstein dampers for 42 quid each or Sachs for 44, tried to get a quote for delivery but it wanted me to go ahead and place the order it seems- I think it might be 8 quid. Figured I might as well get new top mounts for a fiver each while I'm at it. Alternatively CP4L will do me a pair of Sachs for 112 quid delivered. I assume I don't need the heavy duty ones?

[Rave]

In a moment of rare (for me) decisiveness, I bought a new pair of dampers and top mounts for the Passat. But in a not at all unusual subsequent round of inefficiency I did everything but get round to fitting them, including buying another car that needs work. Anyway I figured it could manage one more footy trip, to Middlesbrough last night. On the way back from our last trip (Everton) I let my mate drive most of the leg home, and he was apparently keen to crack on, doing most of the M40 at slightly above legal speeds. I was a bit cheesed off about it, but mainly because I'd worked out splitting the diesel bill from what I expected to achieve MPG wise on the way home- though it still managed over 50mpg so I was only a couple of quid down.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have done the turbo any good at all. Not long after setting off yesterday it became apparent that if you gave it any sort of serious throttle, to say pick up a bit of speed to complete an overtake without hanging out in the outside lang for too long, it would start rattling and blowing smoke out of the exhaust. We'd set off massively early as usual so I spent most of the journey sat in the inside lane with the trucks at 55-60, and we got there showing 62mpg. After a match that really wasn't worth a 520 mile round trip to see, we set off home and I basically decided to try and actively manage the amount of boost the turbo was generating by leaving the instantaneous MPG readout up on the dash and knocking the cruise off on any hill that sent it below 35mpg. On the few occasions I was a bit late to react, I found that as well as the rattling and smoking, the power delivery seems to start surging up and down. We went a bit faster on that trip as it would do 67-70 on the flat no bother, but got home showing 48mpg which is the worst I've ever seen it. I rather hope there was a strong headwind, rather than it was because it was wasting diesel somehow.

 

Anyway, I'm clearly no expert on modern diesels or turbos, but my best guess is from the symptoms- noise, rough running and smoke on boost- is that the turbo oil seal has given up the ghost, and the boost pressure is blowing oil past the seal into the engine. Does that sound reasonable, or is there anything else I should investigate? It didn't throw an engine light, and the oil level looked OK when I checked it- I'd changed the oil and filter (using a bottle of fully synth PD-spec 5w-40 that came with the car) prior to the Everton trip. I'll stick my knockoff ELM327 on just to see if there's anything to see, but I'm not expecting any joy.

 

And, assuming that the turbo is at fault, what to do about it? It's chucking it down with rain here so I don't really fancy sticking my head under the bonnet, but from memory access appears to be quite reasonable thanks to the longitudinal engine layout. My new set of car ramps arrived today so I should be able to get underneath the front very easily if access is better from below. A preliminary and perfunctory google reveals that I can buy turbo rebuild kits for anything from £15-30, or a replacement turbo for £220-ish- I assume these are cheapy Chinese ones. Is rebuilding a turbo yourself a realistic prospect or do you need all manner of specialist tools and years of experience? Are the Chinese turbos any good?

 

I've already done about 3500 miles in this since I bought it for £280 so I've unquestionably had my money's worth, and I could weigh it in and try and flog the new pair of dampers off to get some of my money back, but I actually really like it and would like to try and get it to 250,000 miles, it seems a shame to get so close and then give up. If it carries on in its role as the football away day bus I guess it's going to do maybe 7-8000 miles a year mostly on the motorway, so if the rebuilt or replacement turbo only lasted another 15,000 miles that wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

So, thoughts please!

[skattrd]

The rattling sounds odd, I've had a couple of cars with dead/dying turbos and never heard any noise from them.

 

The smoke and boost does sound like the turbo is on the way out, but that's my internet based guesswork. I'd wait for other opinions and investigation before shelling out on a replacement.

 

If you can get at it I'd be tempted to pop the hose off the turbo and see if there is play in the blades. If it wobbles around like a good 'un then it's shagged. I'll try and find the vid I took of my borings knackered turbo, that was properly loose.

 

I did a turbo swap on my boring, and from memory I did it all from the top leaning in to the engine bay, longitudinal should be even easier access than the transverse. IF things come undoes it's quite straightforward, with the heat involved nuts/bolts can get hot, tight and snap if you're unlucky.

 

Is the EGR still attached and not blocked?

I'm not familiar with EGR issues (I might have removed then in the past) but maybe that could be the culprit?

[Rave]

I daresay the EGR is all clogged up with horrible muck, I will investigate that too.

 

I think this might actually have come with a HBOL now I think about it, will ask my wife where it might have ended up during our house move. Got to pick my moment though as the chances of that causing an argument are reasonably high 

[vaughant]

If my Leon sells I have a spare engine with a turbo on it that you're welcome to have for postage costs, I think it's off a 90bhp model but it should fit on fine. Try the egr first as it's a common fail point on these.

The turbo on my old Merc ML rattled like mad when it failed but no real smoke to speak of, they all have different symptoms.

Deffo take the intake off to check for up and down play, there will usually be a bit of in and out play but only a mm or two. Up and down should be almost zero.

You'll know if it's fubared.

[Dave_Q]

Turbos don't really fail in the way you describe, in fact the oil sealing relies on gas pressure in the turbo to keep the oil in.

 

If a turbo is mechanically fucked, it will hoy oil out constantly and you will have a big smokescreen.

 

For what you describe I reckon it's more likely to be a sticking VG mechanism or EGR, possibly a split hose but you'd expect that to give smoke every time it boosted.

 

I *think* this will have a vacuum actuated VG, ie the turbo has a can thing on a rod attached to the middle of it with a vac hose attached to that. 

If it is this setup then the actuator is held on with 2 10mm nuts, you can unbolt the actuator and this will allow you to wiggle the lever at the turbo and have a feel of if it's sticky. It should move with very little effort. 

 

If it seems to be sticking you can rectify this by getting a can of Mr Muscle foaming oven cleaner and spraying it into the turbine housing. I think on most VAGs you can unbolt the little pipe on top of the manifold which goes to the EGR and spray into the turbine housing by getting a bit of tube on the oven cleaner and directing it in. Let it soak for a while and move the lever on the turbo back and forwards a bit, it should start to feel smoother after a while.

 

Other things to check are vac hoses, the turbo and EGR are controlled by solenoids that work off the engine vacuum and any splits or pinholes in these hoses can cause problems. 

 

As vaughan said you can take the inlet boot off the turbo and feel the shaft for play, but I don't think the actual turbo rotor is likely to be a problem. 

[Rave]

For what you describe I reckon it's more likely to be a sticking VG mechanism or EGR, possibly a split hose but you'd expect that to give smoke every time it boosted.

 

 

It smokes every time it boosts, as far as I can tell. I hadn't considered a split hose, I guess the surging could possibly be as a result of boost fluctuations if the split lets go and then seals up again when the boost drops. The rattling is odd though, I figured it could be due to engine oil getting in to the combustion chambers and causing detonation, which I'm pretty sure is what happened when the turbo on a friend's Berlingo HDi went suddenly. I'll hope for reasonable weather tomorrow and start pulling bits off it, thanks a lot for the pointers everyone   .

[Captain Furious]

So far as reconditioning your own turbo goes, from what I've read the main obstacle is getting it balanced correctly so it doesn't lunch itself in short order.  But knowing your fearless attitude to taking on jobs like this in the past (I'm thinking of Mondeo V6 alternator) I look forward to the post.

[skattrd]

So far as reconditioning your own turbo goes, from what I've read the main obstacle is getting it balanced correctly so it doesn't lunch itself in short order.  But knowing your fearless attitude to taking on jobs like this in the past (I'm thinking of Mondeo V6 alternator) I look forward to the post.

 

If you're not changing the shaft or blades then balancing shouldn't be an issue. 

 

I made a hybrid turbo for a kei a few years back and that held together fine with no balancing, using the old shaft and blades.

 

Just make sure you have a small torque wrench and the correct torques to set it to. I was surprised at how low some of the settings were, like 17nm or something daft.

 

 

Dave_Q makes some good points, it might not be a failing turbo.

When my turbo properly went on the tdi boring it was massive clouds and constant, I was scared of all the oil disappearing in a cloud.

When I had one on the way out (petrol car) it wouldn't hold constant boost it would fluctuate from like 0.5 to 1.1bar.

[Dave_Q]

The rattling is odd, hard to even guess what it might be without hearing it though.

 

Still dont reckon you would need to rebuild it, but for info if you keep the relative position of the wheel to the shaft more or less the same it should be fine.

 

Most news of doom for DIY rebuilds come from places with a vested interest in selling you a new or rebuilt turbo.

[rainagain]

My experience with diesels and smoke in the past:

1. Smoke whilst on boost: my Alfa 156 did this when I first got it as the egr valve had jammed open

2. Surging: my 307 did this when accelerating, I cleaned the maf and it went away

 

Could you temporarily blank off the egr valve to see if that stops the smoke?

[dieselassist]

became apparent that if you gave it any sort of serious throttle, to say pick up a bit of speed to complete an overtake without hanging out in the outside lang for too long, it would start rattling and blowing smoke out of the exhaust.

 

 

What engine code is it, your Passat? I presume its a PD TDi as it a facelifted b5.5.

 

Is it hard to start in the morning/ after a long sit up? Lots of cranking etc?

 

These PD TDi engines seem to suffer a lotta jip from their injectors; which are 'cleverly' buried in the head under the rocker cover...

...a specialist will tell you 'it needs new / recon'd injectors £££$$€€€' - often times its the wee rubber seal round the injectors that breaks down...

 

,,anyhow, a lotta rattling/ unhappy flailing around engine on these is usually down to the injectors...

 

I have a similar problem with my 04 audi a4 PD TDi - small 'miss' at idle; n it can be hard to start (tho I think this is down to the tank lift pump getting lazy) - mine doesn't smoke much when giving it the beans, as I had my mate follow me last week, dropping off a car, he reported minimal above normal smoke...

[dieselassist]

as said above, a good clean out of the EGR gubbins helps these; I took all the bits off mine n cleaned out all the various bits; depending on the model you cant just EGR delete/fit a plate as they have various sensors plugged in/ flag up lack of pressue etc etc - so its a case of cleaning all the sooty crap out of them; take the manifold off too n clean that out; makes a huge difference in how they run/ top end oomph... 

[skattrd]

Oooh, yeah, if taking things out and cleaning them then the intake manifold can be good fun.

Google "redneck diesel intake clean"

[stonedagain]

Check all ofthe turbo hoses, the metal ends on them wear due to vibration & become partially detached under boost condition. Give them a good wiggle about & watch for excessive movement.

[bigfella2]

What engine code is it, your Passat? I presume its a PD TDi as it a facelifted b5.5.

 

Is it hard to start in the morning/ after a long sit up? Lots of cranking etc?

 

These PD TDi engines seem to suffer a lotta jip from their injectors; which are 'cleverly' buried in the head under the rocker cover...

...a specialist will tell you 'it needs new / recon'd injectors £££$$€€€' - often times its the wee rubber seal round the injectors that breaks down...

 

,,anyhow, a lotta rattling/ unhappy flailing around engine on these is usually down to the injectors...

 

I have a similar problem with my 04 audi a4 PD TDi - small 'miss' at idle; n it can be hard to start (tho I think this is down to the tank lift pump getting lazy) - mine doesn't smoke much when giving it the beans, as I had my mate follow me last week, dropping off a car, he reported minimal above normal smoke...

Got to say I disagree with most of that imo. Injectors are pretty reliable on the 1.9PD's. Failures do happen but on PD's it's not that common, not uncommon for garages to lay fault at the injectors when struggling to find the cause of poor running. Usually the problem is the injector loon that immersed in hot oil.

 

Poor starting is usually caused by weak starter motors, the ECU has to see a certain rpm before it will fire the injectors.

 

Completely agree with above about the boost pipes. Had to deal with one recently that had blown the boost pipe off due to damaged tab and clip. But could also be the turbine wheel touching the housing.

[Rave]

Thanks all. Engine is an AWX. It still starts very easily and appears to run perfectly when not boosting, oddly high fuel consumption on the last trip notwithstanding. It did seem to blow out a cloud of smoke the last time I started it after leaving it standing for a few days, which again leads me to think it's an oil seal problem- but it is obviously getting a lot colder right now, I bought it in the summer and so perhaps a completely smokeless diesel is not a realistic prospect in colder weather...

 

I'll have a poke about tomorrow at the very least, to see if it's anything obvious.

[dieselassist]

Got to say I disagree with most of that imo. Injectors are pretty reliable on the 1.9PD's. Failures do happen but on PD's it's not that common, not uncommon for garages to lay fault at the injectors when struggling to find the cause of poor running. Usually the problem is the injector loon that immersed in hot oil.

 

Poor starting is usually caused by weak starter motors, the ECU has to see a certain rpm before it will fire the injectors.

 

Completely agree with above about the boost pipes. Had to deal with one recently that had blown the boost pipe off due to damaged tab and clip. But could also be the turbine wheel touching the housing.

 

well i'll disagree with you here...as stated above, its not always the injectors themselves, sometime the wee ring that seats the injectors; but injectors do give grief; the PD's rely on working lift pump, 'push/injection' (at the back end of the cam) pump (rather than the previous type semi electronic/ semi mechanical pump) and the right pressures delivered by the injectors - everything in 'harmony' you could say... tdi starters are well up to the cranking process; with these type of injector problems, folk often blame the starter as its being turned over n over n overheated without rest; the issue always lies somewhere else; they do need good battery power n a good starter/cranking power but you can usually bully them into into life with a tow etc if they refuse to start; even with bad injectors...

 

Ive seen a few of these snap off an engine mount when the injectors give a bit of jip; you can bully them into starting usually but it has consequences elsewhere n the top pin on the mount snaps off; its down to bad injector performance on one or more injectors; they get very clattery etc when this happens but its often down to a bad seal round the injector...

[Rave]

I got as far as removing the engine and air filter covers and giving it a good staring at. Couldn't see anything obviously amiss  . The intake hoses seem to come out of the bottom of the turbo and head round the back of the block, so I couldn't easily examine them, I guess coming in from underneath will be required there. I found that what looked like a throttle butterfly (but obviously isn't) near where the EGR pipe goes into the intake was covered in horrible oily crap but appeared to move freely. Anyway having left it very late to get started it's now getting dark so I've retired inside to do what I should have done in the first place and have a read through the HBOL.

[skattrd]

,,, I found that what looked like a throttle butterfly (but obviously isn't) near where the EGR pipe goes into the intake

 

I think that's the ASV, anti-shudder valve, it's apparently to shut the engine down more smoothly. An EGR delete pipe removes it, I can't say I noticed much difference without it. 

If the ASV is faulty it basically cuts off boost.

[Rave]

Check all ofthe turbo hoses, the metal ends on them wear due to vibration & become partially detached under boost condition. Give them a good wiggle about & watch for excessive movement.

 

It's raining here today but in an interlude I've been out and had another quick poke. The S-shaped hose on the non-intake side of the engine that runs from something down below the N/S headlight- I assume the intercooler is there but it's a bit hard to see- is pretty loose at the bottom and there's a great deal of oily muck there. Can you bodge up the connectors with PTFE tape or similar, or is it new hose time if they're faulty?

 

Edit: the rain held off a bit longer so I had more of a poke. Turns out the inlet hose is easy to remove, so I did. Found it had a lot of oil in it:

 

 

And has clearly been blowing at the bottom for a while:

 

 

I've cleaned it all up and popped it back together. I saw a random roll of PTFE tape around yesterday but my wife has tidied it away; I might try winding some round the metal bits to see if I can get the pipe to seat a bit more firmly, but I'd have thought that it's the rubber seals that are supposed to keep it air tight. Could wind a bit of tape underneath them to push them out a bit.

 

Is the amount of oil in there indicative of turbo seal failure? I'd expect to see a bit, obviously I have no idea when that pipe was last removed.

 

I had a quick poke round the turbo; but my hope that access would be good was in vain, every bolt seems to have another part in front of it preventing access. I had a feel around underneath the VNT (?) actuator thing- there's a lot of spring tension on the arm so I could only pull it a couple of mm, but it seemed to be moving freely.

 

Edit 2: Just been to the shops to pick up my wife. Limited opportunities to test it under boost but I gave it a quick boot in second when the road cleared. A big cloud of black smoke was the result. No obvious rattling or surging, though I didn't give it much chance.

 

It appears replacement intercooler pipes are 15 quid on ebay.

[Bren]

Not out of the norm for 1L of oil to present in the induction system.

[Iamgroot]

No idea about the rattly noise, But I have a little bit of real world experience of budget fixes on these, I have repaired 2 boost pipes because they split, causing lots of smoke, chuffing and whistling noises, chugging and beggar all power, also, I have expected to find split pipes but it had been the o rings on the metal ends of the pipes, same symptoms but lessened, I found if you clean them up and put a bit (a bit) of PTFE tape round the o rings before putting them back together it can sort out Smokey and boosty issues. You can buy the o rings, I saw them somewhere but couldn't be arsed to wait. Be sparing with the PTFE tape, maybe two "laps", too much and they won't click in properly after and all will be great until they blow out completely when pulling out onto a main road...

 

Oh and all the ones I've seen have that gunge under the pipe and oil in the pipework, so it doesn't show anything particularly unusual for one of these.

[Rave]

Right sound, thanks a lot. I'll try and seal up that hose properly tomorrow morning and take it for a spin; if that doesn't sort it I'll faff around removing the intake pipe to the turbo to inspect the turbo outlet pipe, which is apparently a common failure point.