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P38 Range Rover, strangely alluring, may be changing the thread prefix!!

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103 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:32 PM

Is it much work to pop both rocker covers off & see if both sides are about as oily as each other?

 

I think this may be my next job, just peering thru the oil filler hole the cam etc looks filthy, not cool - not sure what you do when you get in there, waggle lifters, lube 'em, probs will google the job see what comes up, stumbling in the dark with this to be fair!

 

I guess the oil pump may not be doing what it should, don't know what the test or cure would be yet :(



#62 OFFLINE   Captain Furious

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:39 PM

Removing the rocker covers won't give you access to the lifters, its an inlet manifold off job.  If you wanted to replace them you'd need to remove both rocker covers, remove all the rockers and pushrods, then remove the inlet manifold and pull the followers out.

 

Not difficult but its not a 5 min job. 

 

Just removing the rocker covers probably won't tell you much.


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#63 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:05 PM

Removing the rocker covers won't give you access to the lifters, its an inlet manifold off job.  If you wanted to replace them you'd need to remove both rocker covers, remove all the rockers and pushrods, then remove the inlet manifold and pull the followers out.

 

Not difficult but its not a 5 min job. 

 

Just removing the rocker covers probably won't tell you much.

 

Ah, this would be the kind of thing I didn't want to get embroiled in - I just went out again and she was fairly quiet at first, then started getting noisier as I pottered about checking Our lass's Magentis which has a pretty bad sump gasket (I think) leak, not sure what this means, but what I did discover was the different settings for the air suspension, which was immense fun, reminiscent of the old BX I once owned :)

 

well, today I am less depressed about the situation, it does not seem as grave and terminal as I thought, I will do some local pottering in it tomorrow and see if that helps the snake oil to do it's job :)

 

I am also still in the market for another motor for the fleet, I usually have a camper van of some description which doubles up as a tool shed, so keep the suggestions coming please people, another couple may not be out of the question until I settle on a working number of vehicles for me, Daughter, The Missus and maybe a project or two ;)



#64 OFFLINE   Bren

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:36 PM

If you lift the rocker covers it will give a general indication of the engine's health.

Lots of black sludge mean it's very tired.
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#65 OFFLINE   DodgeRover

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:41 PM

What's the oil pressure light doing when it's hot idling in gear with the brakes on? What's the idle speed in neutral or park?
Is the aircon working?

#66 ONLINE   Mally

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:12 PM

These are my first videos of eva, need to adapt to the conditions I guess, mumbling isn't helping is it ;)

 

I just figured you could wear the ear plugs and the problem would vanish.

Works for me. What noise?


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#67 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:29 PM

What's the oil pressure light doing when it's hot idling in gear with the brakes on? What's the idle speed in neutral or park?
Is the aircon working?

 

As far as I know, the oil pressure light is not on, even in traffic, idle speed seems quite pleasingly low in both scenarios, and the aircon blows warm, I think I know where you're going with this, but I really do appreciate the knowledge :)



#68 OFFLINE   bigfella2

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:15 PM

Does the oil pressure light come on with the ignition? Just wondering if the last owner has done something naughty with the bulb.
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#69 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:24 PM

Does the oil pressure light come on with the ignition? Just wondering if the last owner has done something naughty with the bulb.

 

hmmm.. good question, i shall check tomorrow :)

 

Update - just checked, no, light comes on as it should, fired it up, nice and quiet!

 

Seems to be when the engine warms up, it gets noisier :?

 

Happily the error message sunroof open is on the digikal dash - it's plainly shut as a shut thing, although the sunroof liner is fully floating, so that's probably the cause - the joy of old shite ownership :-D

 

Going to go for a pootle to Leeds to pick up a mattress tomorrow I've decided, will monitor progress and see what it's doing pattern wise :-D



#70 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:34 PM

If you lift the rocker covers it will give a general indication of the engine's health.

Lots of black sludge mean it's very tired.

 

I was wondering if you'd see one side rather dry if an oil feed was blocked, I'd forgot the lifters were further down.


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#71 OFFLINE   Talbot

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:41 AM

I tried that once & was told under £1k it excludes cars.


Missed this before..

Who told you that, the vendor? Theres actually specific wording in the act that menas the price paid has no relevance, it's determined on the fitness for purpose. If the car was bought as spears or reapers, then that's the purpose of the vehicle, so no comebacks. However, if a car is sold "as a car" then it matters not how much was paid, it should function as a car. Got a full refund on a £600 Mundaneo a couple of years ago based on it breaking down pretty much every journey. It was fucked with an undisclosed fault.
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#72 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:47 AM

Trading Standards told me that, the most useless bunch of cunts known to man as no matter what you buy off a trader & get ripped off for, they pretend they don't cover it.


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#73 ONLINE   sierraman

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:27 AM

But he has bought it spares or repairs. If I was a trader dealing with the sub £1000 Bumtree crowd all day I'd be putting the same on the invoice, otherwise they'd be at your door every 10 minutes complaining it wanted some brake pads 6 months down the line. Im not sure its put on to rip people off, you wouldn't make it your business to knowingly do so, its to avoid the likelyhood of Barry Bumcrack coming back in a month wanting his money back on a £400 Vectra to spend on some spice, going on about a myriad of 'faults' his m8 whoos a mecanic says its definitely fooked m8.
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#74 OFFLINE   Captain Furious

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:30 AM

I am intrigued by this now, I would have expected noisy followers to be most apparent when cold and quieten down as it warms up.  Not the other way around

 

However my old Mk6 Escort would occasionally get a noisy tappet which didn't sound dissimilar to this, and no matter how long you left it idling it would not shut up - once you took it for a proper drive it went away.  So all hope is not lost - yet.



#75 OFFLINE   Talbot

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 11:28 AM

But he has bought it spares or repairs. If I was a trader dealing with the sub £1000 Bumtree crowd all day I'd be putting the same on the invoice, otherwise they'd be at your door every 10 minutes complaining it wanted some brake pads 6 months down the line. Im not sure its put on to rip people off, you wouldn't make it your business to knowingly do so, its to avoid the likelyhood of Barry Bumcrack coming back in a month wanting his money back on a £400 Vectra to spend on some spice, going on about a myriad of 'faults' his m8 whoos a mecanic says its definitely fooked m8.


All of this is true. The law is actually quite well written in this respect. If the vehicle develops faults that would be appropriate for it's age and condition, then that is absolutely not covered. They also do not cover any wearing parts or fair wear and tear. Needs brake pads? Fuck off. Needs a clutch? Tough shit. Radio doesn't work? Bugger right off.

However, if a car develops a fault that renders it unable to function as a car (EG it shits it's gearbox through it's arse) then within 30 days, you get an instant refund. Under 6 months, the vendor has the opportunity to repair the car, but ultimately the onus is on the vendor to deal with it as it is assumed that the fault existed at the point of sale (unless the vendor can prove otherwise.. eg "you've filled the gearbox with engine oil you twat")

over 6 months, it's then up to the buyer to prove that the fault existed at point of sale, which is very hard to do.

Personally I think it's a good law to have, and offers good protection to people buying used cars. That said, I would also fully expect a £400 snotter to be sold as "This vehicle is sold as unroadworthy for spares". That means there really is no comeback, as the vehicle is absolutely fit-for-purpose, as the purpose in this case was to break for spares, not to use it on the road as an actual car.

In my case, the vendor didn't understand the law properly, and the car was sold as a car. Bad luck for him, good luck for me.
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#76 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 04:13 PM

Today has been a good day :)

 

flush with the knowledge that this is a mere flesh wound in the grand scheme of things, Monty Python stylee, I embarked on a mission to Leeds to pick up Daughter, do lots of errands, put Billy Cavcraft's new Vauxhall shirt in the post, and grab a double mattress I bought last week (yes, there is a good chance I only bought this RR to cart an Ikea returns mattress from a charity shop, rather than fight with it in my rover 75 touring, such is my shiter logic ;) ).

 

As far as I can tell, the knocking is quieter, sometimes completely absent from cold, or when the revs are up it seems to disappear as well - the oil, filter and magic potion seems to be helping, or it's just a placebo - either way, she ran well in the heat on the motorway and in the traffic, never missed a beat, no oil warning blips or temp variations, so I am tentatively calling this one a result!! :)

 

I have one Vauxhall shirt left, and I thought I would award it to Cort 16, who called the lifter issue and the snake oil, and many, many thanks to everyone else who chipped in, this is the joy of autoshite right there :)

 

In the charity shop I found the shirts there are some MASSIVE green skoda work trousers, with a smoll label on them which is barely visible - I did not invest in these, however I may go back if anyone has an interest, should have taken some pics really, but believe me, they were a bit clown like and over sized!

 

Regarding flogging the bugger, yes, it's still up for grabs, but seeing as it actually is running OK now, I'm not in a mad panic so can take my time with a replacement - hooning around in it has reminded me how much I love the high up driving position, comfy seats, all the toys, big engine, massive load bay, so I think I will go for a Jap import like a Toyota Hiace supercustom, Nissan Elgrand, that kind of thing - same kind of experience, much less spannering to be done as a rule, but I can't rule out a Jaag or similar barge, or anything really, but it would have to be an auto with hopefully working aircon as I have designs on visiting the abroads soon :)

 

Price? If she continues to play nicely, then i'd like to get my money back or thereabouts, so £800, with a continuous flow of improvements such as fixing smoll annoying stuff, putting a stereo in, cleaning the fucker properly, that kind of thing - there is a good car underneath the layer of grime and neglect of trim - and of course part exchanges are always to be considered ;)

 

Here is a couple of pics of her as God intended - stuffed to the gills with furniture :)

 

IMG_20180726_155003.jpg

IMG_20180726_155012.jpg

IMG_20180726_155020.jpg

IMG_20180726_155033.jpg

 


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#77 OFFLINE   richardthestag

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 04:58 PM

difficult to say without being in front of it but manifold cracks behave like that. quiet on start and then get noisier as it warms. doesnt sound like valve gear or bottom end at all. the tapping sounds at cam speed not crank speed which again would point to exhaust manifold.

 

they undo themselves for fun on rover v8s alloy head, steel bolts and cast manifolds, though yours look a bit tubular all expand at different rates. replace gaskits and use the lock washers and they stay together for slightly longer. manifold to downpipe on standard cast manifolds seems to shed nuts at an alarming rate. sounds the same as your video.

 

re your oil change

 

I use 

 

15/40 from halfrauds fully mineral. semi or even fully synthetic is a complete waste of extra money over <--- in the blue plastic can

genuine land rover filters work, anything else doesnt in my experience. they are more or less the same price. lower oil pressure has been the issue

 

BTW most engines will have gloop and tar in them even with regular oil changes. rover v8 especially higher mileage can have compression gas in the sump. this destroys oil visc in double quick time hence 3k mile oil changes eek. and even then it comes out like water. not sure I would lob anything in that might loosen hardened oil black death deposits that will then find their way to a hydraulic lifter or bearing.

 

use tissue paper dangling to find air leaks around the exhaust manifold and down pipe :)


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#78 OFFLINE   richardthestag

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 05:05 PM

very tempted at p38 owership as my daily needs to get some serious attention in the brake rebuild dept before 25 year old stuff starts to go wrong


Shitroen C4 GP 2007 1.6HDi - Wife's daily written off, farewell trusty but slightly unpredictable steed

Hyundai i10 2010 newbee - Wife's daily

Pug 307 - son's daily runner Sold to Arthur Foxhake

Range Rover Vogue 1993 - my daily runner

Daewoo Matiz 2002 - Sold

Jaguar x308 Sovereign 4 litre - sold to Hooli

Triumph Staaag 1973 - cheaper than a mistress.. just

Range Rover 1972 - ongoing extensive restoration

Range Rover 1972 - complete shed but in line for restoration

Land Rover 1969 SIIa SWB - belongs to Fathathestag but maintained and welded by me

BMW E46 318i touring - sold to hhhugues

VW Polo 2002 1.2l 3 pot bargain for #2 son

Renna Clio Expression+ 16v Barg for #3 son

 


#79 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 05:15 PM

very tempted at p38 owership as my daily needs to get some serious attention in the brake rebuild dept before 25 year old stuff starts to go wrong

 

I'm more than happy to let you have a good look at mine as you obviously know your shizzle :)

 

It's up for grabs anyhow if you're tempted ;)



#80 OFFLINE   richardthestag

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:23 AM

I'm more than happy to let you have a good look at mine as you obviously know your shizzle :)

 

It's up for grabs anyhow if you're tempted ;)

 

tempted but not quite insane/pissed enough yet :)


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Hyundai i10 2010 newbee - Wife's daily

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Range Rover Vogue 1993 - my daily runner

Daewoo Matiz 2002 - Sold

Jaguar x308 Sovereign 4 litre - sold to Hooli

Triumph Staaag 1973 - cheaper than a mistress.. just

Range Rover 1972 - ongoing extensive restoration

Range Rover 1972 - complete shed but in line for restoration

Land Rover 1969 SIIa SWB - belongs to Fathathestag but maintained and welded by me

BMW E46 318i touring - sold to hhhugues

VW Polo 2002 1.2l 3 pot bargain for #2 son

Renna Clio Expression+ 16v Barg for #3 son

 


#81 OFFLINE   Zelandeth

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 10:00 AM

use tissue paper dangling to find air leaks around the exhaust manifold and down pipe :)

 

I'll need to remember that one!


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#82 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 09:51 AM

More none-news in so far as nothing has grenaded, and I have agreed to decorate the stepson's new flat next week or so, which will entail regular trips from Hudds to Leeds with tools and furniture as we stock it, so I reckon this will be as good a test as any - I live the "wrong" side of Hudds for traffic jams, and the flat is also the "wrong" side of Leeds, therefore there will be plenty of sitting in hot traffic jams, interspersed with about twenty miles of M62 blarting  ;)

 

Richardthestag made some interesting suggestions about the oil and filter I should use, if I understand correctly he's saying the oil makes no difference what you hoy in, and the oil filter will allow better oil pressure? Could this improve the amount of oil reaching the top end, or is this mostly down to the health of the oil pump and feeder pipes? (I'm speculating here - also there is no indication dash-light wise there is any problem with low pressure - but that could mean nothing of course).

 

Anyhoo, I'm just going to run her as she is intended, as a giant tool box, and keep a beady eye on the fluids and so on :)



#83 OFFLINE   richardthestag

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 10:46 AM

no any oil. Rover v8 for me runs best on a mineral 15/40, on a mineral 20/50 it was noticeably less grunty. maybe the original hydraulic lifters liked it less! My pockets are too shallow for synthetic or semi synthetic which is probably for the best, those oils are made for modun enguns and not potential boat anchors designed in the late 1950s 

 

I dont have a gauge but the oil pressure light goes off in 2 seconds with a land rover oil filter and up to 10 seconds from cold start with anything else.

 

^^^ means that I only ever fill with 15/40 mineral (Halfrauds blue plastic can is cheapest for me) Landie oil filters are small, white and have land rover written around them :) any of the on line retailers, famourfour, paddockspares sell them a shit load cheaper than land rover stealers

 

Have you dangled the bog roll around the exhaust manifolds yet ? :D


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Shitroen C4 GP 2007 1.6HDi - Wife's daily written off, farewell trusty but slightly unpredictable steed

Hyundai i10 2010 newbee - Wife's daily

Pug 307 - son's daily runner Sold to Arthur Foxhake

Range Rover Vogue 1993 - my daily runner

Daewoo Matiz 2002 - Sold

Jaguar x308 Sovereign 4 litre - sold to Hooli

Triumph Staaag 1973 - cheaper than a mistress.. just

Range Rover 1972 - ongoing extensive restoration

Range Rover 1972 - complete shed but in line for restoration

Land Rover 1969 SIIa SWB - belongs to Fathathestag but maintained and welded by me

BMW E46 318i touring - sold to hhhugues

VW Polo 2002 1.2l 3 pot bargain for #2 son

Renna Clio Expression+ 16v Barg for #3 son

 


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#84 OFFLINE   djimbob

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 04:55 PM

no any oil. Rover v8 for me runs best on a mineral 15/40, on a mineral 20/50 it was noticeably less grunty. maybe the original hydraulic lifters liked it less! My pockets are too shallow for synthetic or semi synthetic which is probably for the best, those oils are made for modun enguns and not potential boat anchors designed in the late 1950s 

 

I dont have a gauge but the oil pressure light goes off in 2 seconds with a land rover oil filter and up to 10 seconds from cold start with anything else.

 

^^^ means that I only ever fill with 15/40 mineral (Halfrauds blue plastic can is cheapest for me) Landie oil filters are small, white and have land rover written around them :) any of the on line retailers, famourfour, paddockspares sell them a shit load cheaper than land rover stealers

 

Have you dangled the bog roll around the exhaust manifolds yet ? :D

 

Most excellent advice Mr TheStag :)

 

I have not done the bog roll diagnostic yet as we've been to the tip and charity shopping for getting shut of big chairs and buying a futon thingy, most excellent uses for a big old boat like this, also investigated the stereo of no fascia, turns out there is only one speaker actually working, needs a bit of a rewire and a new stereo to drown out the characterful noises :)

 

Also not 100% sure on what I would need to do with said bog roll and what it all means!  - I will have a go next week and see what becomes obvious ;)


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#85 ONLINE   skattrd

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 05:26 PM

I'm guessing you dangle bog roll to see if there are any gas leaks ... from Mr_thestag's statement I've got a feeling there often is.


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#86 OFFLINE   Talbot

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:59 AM

I dont have a gauge but the oil pressure light goes off in 2 seconds with a land rover oil filter and up to 10 seconds from cold start with anything else.


Anti-drainback valves are the issue here. Cheeeeeepo oil filters don't have them, they are just a filter. Decent ones will incorporate an anti-drainback valve, meaning the galleries and oil pump remain full of oil. (pump stays full as air is not allowed back down to it to let it drain.)

This is particularly important on RV8 engines, as their oil pump is well known for not priming very well at all (vaseline in the gears being recommended after an overhaul to assist priming). If the oil is regularly draining back, there will be a hellish long delay before the pump can get re-primed and get pressure to the galleries again.

If you ever need to re-prime the oil system, or if you just want to see it's working properly, there's a nice little bodge you can do: remove the distributor, and you'll see the oil drive at the bottom of the distributor shaft. Peer into the hole in the engine and you'll see the skew-gear that drives the distributor, and at the bottom of the hole is the drive for the oil pump. About a foot length of 10-ish-mm tube with the end slightly flattened will drive the oil pump from a battery drill. You can tell when it's primed, as the drill will spin easily for what feels like forever, then suddenly load up as it's actually pumping oil. If you do this with the rocker covers removed, you should then be able to see oil oozing out from around all the rockers and then draining back to the sump. If you can't, you've got a blocked oilway somewhere.
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#87 OFFLINE   richardthestag

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:38 PM

on priming the oil pump I use a 8mm or 10mm socket. cant remember which but it fits over the end of the oil pump which you can clealy see when the dizzy is removed. (except on the P38 there is no dissy, pretty sure the p38 has a different oil pump, so I dont know) on Rover v8 with a dizzy I attach socket extensions to the socket and attach to my drill, run it in reverse though.;)

 

when the oil pump loads it is unmistakable the drill slows.

 

+1 on the oil drain back valve, I thought it was that but wasnt sure


Shitroen C4 GP 2007 1.6HDi - Wife's daily written off, farewell trusty but slightly unpredictable steed

Hyundai i10 2010 newbee - Wife's daily

Pug 307 - son's daily runner Sold to Arthur Foxhake

Range Rover Vogue 1993 - my daily runner

Daewoo Matiz 2002 - Sold

Jaguar x308 Sovereign 4 litre - sold to Hooli

Triumph Staaag 1973 - cheaper than a mistress.. just

Range Rover 1972 - ongoing extensive restoration

Range Rover 1972 - complete shed but in line for restoration

Land Rover 1969 SIIa SWB - belongs to Fathathestag but maintained and welded by me

BMW E46 318i touring - sold to hhhugues

VW Polo 2002 1.2l 3 pot bargain for #2 son

Renna Clio Expression+ 16v Barg for #3 son

 


#88 OFFLINE   richardthestag

richardthestag

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:39 PM

I'm guessing you dangle bog roll to see if there are any gas leaks ... from Mr_thestag's statement I've got a feeling there often is.

 

yep when you dandle the dog roll down the side of the engine you will see it pulse as you find the gas leak. or the cracked manifold.


Shitroen C4 GP 2007 1.6HDi - Wife's daily written off, farewell trusty but slightly unpredictable steed

Hyundai i10 2010 newbee - Wife's daily

Pug 307 - son's daily runner Sold to Arthur Foxhake

Range Rover Vogue 1993 - my daily runner

Daewoo Matiz 2002 - Sold

Jaguar x308 Sovereign 4 litre - sold to Hooli

Triumph Staaag 1973 - cheaper than a mistress.. just

Range Rover 1972 - ongoing extensive restoration

Range Rover 1972 - complete shed but in line for restoration

Land Rover 1969 SIIa SWB - belongs to Fathathestag but maintained and welded by me

BMW E46 318i touring - sold to hhhugues

VW Polo 2002 1.2l 3 pot bargain for #2 son

Renna Clio Expression+ 16v Barg for #3 son

 


#89 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 01:13 PM

yep when you dandle the dog roll down the side of the engine you will see it pulse as you find the gas leak. or the cracked manifold.

 

I like the confidence that you'll find one or other of the issues. No option for it not being faulty :)


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#90 OFFLINE   Captain Furious

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 01:52 PM

I love the unbridled pessimism on this forum, it gives it an honesty that you just don't get on other car selling sites.

 

"Range Rover Money pit instant misery opportunity" I mean, it should really be the tag line for every P38 on sale


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