Long* running landy 88" project - Flocking hell

[Guest Hooli]

Land Rovers are a hobby that occasionally function as transport.

[jakebullet]

Well the gearbox is still broken, so why not work on the brakes instead?

 

Problem #1, one of the master cylinder outputs is the wrong size (7/16"). So I bought an adaptor:

 

 

Adaptor is rubbish. It's too long with no chance of sealing. Fortunately it's flat ended so I stuck it in the lathe and shortened it a bit. Added a suitable copper washer and success it doesn't leak under pressure when I blank off the output.

 

 

I love the blue of britpart in the morning. Feels like mingebag twattery. Going for dephi for the cylinders in the hope they're slightly better quality.

 

 

Things don't look too bad in the drum for 10 years standing:

 

 

Cylinders are still free but I think it's a smart move to change them:

 

 

Shiny new kunifer pipe with brass ends made.

 

 

Total bastard to fit. Why they put everything in the same small space I don't know. More boring plumbing when I can be bothered to do it.

[jakebullet]

Delivery from amazon. Wowsers it's an endoscope thing, that'll be useful for working out what's wrong with the gearbox!

 

WRONG!

 

It's gr11 for faking footage of visiting Titanic's boiler room.

 

All that's obvious is it's been run for chuff knows how long with no oil in it. I think I'm going to have to change it, unless I try filling it with oil in the hope of it magically freeing up whatever is making it be in a gear when a gear isn't selected. Yes, I realise that makes no sense, but desperation you know....

 

Am I right in thinking that you can split the transfer box off in situ, and thus make it two moderately heavy assemblies instead of one massively heavy one?

 

Any other suggestions besides gas axe and put bits on ebay?

[Geep]

Can you not remove/loosen the selectors and manually slide the synchros in to the neutral position through the top cover? They only slide back or forward to select gear so making sure they are in the middle, ie no gear selected, should then let you check the output shaft doesn't move. 

 

Not sure of layout on the box you have but could one of the selector forks be loose or damaged meaning selector shaft moves but fork doesn't? 

[Geep]

 

Installing the selector shafts and forks. Thos bolts holding the forks to the shafts have to be torqued up surprisingly tight (it’s in the manual). I didn’t do this, and one of the shafts slid slightly against the fork, so I had to pull the top of the box apart to re tighten them

 

From here: http://www.geoffslandroverblog.com/posts/post32-gearbox-assembly.html

 

Not sure if same or helps but gives an idea how loose forks on selector rod can cause problems. 

[jakebullet]

Unfortunately it isn't the selectors. They're all tight on the shafts and in the neutral position but there's still drive. The only 'clue' is 3rd / 4th selector doesn't want to go fully into 4th position.

[Geep]

Unfortunately it isn't the selectors. They're all tight on the shafts and in the neutral position but there's still drive. The only 'clue' is 3rd / 4th selector doesn't want to go fully into 4th position.

 Can you loosen 3rd/4th selector and manually slide the selector fork back and forth to see if it will engage/disengage? 

 

I can't see why a synchro would suddenly seize up when testing at low speeds. It must be a selection issue of some sort. They only slide over detent plungers and springs which can't come out unless synchro is removed. I would try moving all selectors in turn fully back and forward so you can positively engage the centre (neutral) on each one and make sure reverse idler isn't engaged. 

 

That the box still rotates means no serious issue with lack of oil though is that a gear tooth showing on the camera pic? Can you get a magnet in and fish it out?

 

Just to add, you might have to rotate gears slightly to engage all gears. Bit of rotation if it feels it won't go in and it should click in. (and to add link)

 

Gearbox Cutaway Photos

 

http://www.series2club.co.uk/pages/technical/gearbox.html

 

Might help.

[jakebullet]

I think it's just crap in the bottom of the case rather than a tooth, but I'll try and get it out to check. The cutaway photos are good, if I can suss what gear it's in it's a start. Thanks!

[jakebullet]

Been looking at the gearbox a bit more, and I don't think it's in a gear at all. Something* is locking / driving the shafts.

 

I checked everything is in neutral by physically moving the gears with the selectors removed. Output will not turn unless I hold the clutch down. I then put it in each gear one at a time, and every gear it then won't turn with the clutch down.

 

One thing I did spot is there is a spring missing from the synchro. One of these:

 

 

Don't know where it's gone, could be jamming / driving a shaft?

[meggersdog]

I read earlier you've taken the overdrive off and since refitting you've had a gear problem.......

The idler gear from the output shaft of the gearbox to the overdrive is where I would be looking.

[jakebullet]

Overdrive is still removed so it's not that. I can't face changing the box at the min so I'll ignore it and do the other billion jobs.

[John F]

I'd definitely look for that missing spring. Even if it's not the current problem it might well become the next one.

[Geep]

Had a brief look online and saw this:

 

I came across a few problems with the gearbox that I thought would have been quite major, but it had still been working up until I removed it... trusty landrover!!

 

A few of the problems were- rear nut on the mainshaft (in the transfer box) had unscrewed completely back to the point it wore the rear bearing housing out, this was the main issue as all gears on the mainshaft, when in neutral were still engaging.

 

 

More pictures of problems found on this box on link: https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/57958-gearbox-rebuild-kit-has-anyone-seen-them/

 

And then found this:

 

The only time my SIII transmission got jammed in a gear and locked up the entire driveline was when the tabs on the locking washer broke off and the spline nut (on the rear of the transmssion behind the PTO coverplate) backed off and jammed up against the pto cover while I was reversing out of my driveway. It was the same symptoms you describe.

This is easy to check by popping off the center under-seat hatch and removing the cover plate on the rear of the transmission and having a peek. Here's what it SHOULDN'T look like:

 

 

http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?8839-Land-Rover-Series-III-stuck-in-gear

 

​I agree with looking for missing spring but if it was jamming something, I doubt the transmission would rotate. I would expect to see it when you checked with borescope and there's always the chance it was left out or disappeared long ago. Not sure if above helps but at least it's something else to check without removing box. 

[Geep]

 

At around 1:25 on he talks about the usual land rover problem of a spring escaped from the synchro hub.

[jakebullet]

It's not a dodgy nut against the rear bearing, 'cos it has an overdrive (currently removed). The nut appears to be properly tightened, but if I can find the socket I made I think I'll try removing it and see if it makes any difference. It needs to come off anyway if I'm going to change the box as I'll need to transfer the overdrive's gear to the replacement box.

 

Eddie Shovelhands is going to come and have a prod n poke too, and if no joy I'll try and con him into helping swap it.

[cros]

There are good synchro springs and some fake ones that don't fit right, you need the good ones. The shit ones break- I think people put them in because they thought that to overhaul something you just replace as many bits as you can. This is not so and applies to the entire box, if its not broke etc.

I would pull the gearbox to bits, its much easier than putting another unknown quantity in then having to remove it. You can shove those endoscopes up your arse.

I hate the all synchro box, lots of variations to catch you out when rebuilding too.

2 synchro much nicer to use but they get abuse from people who don't learn how to operate them.

I've often found problems with reverse gear idler shaft/bush, you can't get away with massive wear here and there are several variations too.

There's so much shit talked about series landrovers. If all is right they can keep working with only routine attention for decades. Two other things, you don't need a brake servo or chequer plate.

[Geep]

 

I would pull the gearbox to bits, its much easier than putting another unknown quantity in then having to remove it.

 

i agree with cros as above. I've never been a great fan of changing something rather than working with the known quantity you have. I always want to know what has failed and try to find out why. Let us know what you find Jake, I'm intrigued as to what caused the issue.  

[cros]

Its only my opinion and I'm digressing a bit but since we're on about gearboxes I'll say it. I never liked the Fairey overdrives because with their small oil capacity they can get very hot just when you don't want them to, at high speed. The Spanish made one is a bit stronger and might give less trouble but they're hard to find. A friend lives with this by altering them to use gearbox oil and recirculating it.

Rocky Mountain do this and are probably very good, but too pricey for me.

I removed the overdrive from my series 1 as I noticed a strange cyclic noise at high speed. This may be because the series 1 transfer box has a much smaller intermediate gear shaft than later ones, but I didn't like what the noise was saying and I'm happy with a bit more normal noise and less complication. I have 3.4 diff's. Surprisingly my de-turbo'd TDI pulled OK in overdrive with these, but fuel consumption was no better. This might not be true with a full fat 200 or 300, but these will very likely break your layshaft eventually as do Perky 4203s and the like.

Socket screws are useful for the speedo cable. Thats all I know.

[jakebullet]

I've removed the mainshaft end nut, and the overdrive's gear, which did the sum of sod all. There's no obvious back  / forth play in the shaft, so looks like it's a coming out at some point.

 

Think I'm going to put the 'unknown' gearbox in, as the current one is also unknown really. Think I drove it about 10 miles in total, and it's been without oil for who knows how long. Probably take the broken one apart and fix it, always good to have spare bits.

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

I have a series 3 gearbox in good overall condition apart from dragging syncro a little on change up to 3rd, changing down all gears ok, although I've never tried to change down to first with it.

 

£100 buys it and if you're  in no rush I may be able to arrange a test drive.

 

Also a low mileage mod recon 2A for £300, although you would need to swap the bell housing to fit it to yours.

[jakebullet]

So I've been busy finding things to do that aren't changing the gearbox.

 

Oh look a smoll hole. Who'd have expected that in a land rover quality* chassis?

 

Something I can fix with confidence n 3mm plate

 

Next plumbed the front end in shiny new kunifer. So all the front braking system is new

 

Plan is to bleed the notoriously crap to bleed front end before doing the back end. (It's twin circuit now so front is independent from the back).

 

Oh joy, brilliant design land rover. Impossible to get a pipe on the bleed nipple

 

So I ordered some "short" bleed nipples from evilbay. Same bloody size as the land rover ones. Went on automec website, and they have "triumph specials" that are a bit shorter. Triumph must also be shit at designing things.

 

Much betterer. Hope of being able to get a pipe on.

 

Removed drum & brake shoes. Added G clamps to compress the pistons back to minimise volume for air to get trapped in.

 

New "magic bleeding" tool. In theory connect to air line, it creates a vacuum and boom it's bleed in seconds. In theory. Also comes with a clever bottle thing for auto topping up the master cylinder.

 

Pulled a couple of inches of brake fluid thru. Don't know if it's worked as I need to do the same to the other side. Put the drum back together then found a bit left over. Took it apart again and snotted it

 

I've a feeling magic bleeding tool won't actually do much, and I'll have to go for plan B that I used last time. Strip the hub off, remove the back plate and turn it upside down so the bleed nipple is now at the highest point. It's just a ball ache to do.

 

I'm feeling a bit down about this project. I've got sod all done, squashed a finger with a brake shoe today, and discovered I'm a weakling now or land rovers have got heavier. Even jacking the other side up to get an axle stand under it was really hard. So I've given up for the day.

 

[tobyd]

I bought a 'mitivac' a while back to magically bleed brakes in seconds.

 

yeah. no.

 

I've seen one deployed and working before but never been able to replicate. compared to a gunseeeeeeeen eeeeeeezi bleeeeeeeed its deeply inferior.

 

anything more than a smidge of suck and it just leaks air past the bleed nipple. or from the line. or from the ether. who knows. really disappointing tool.

[Momentary Lapse Of Reason]

So 11" TLS front brakes?

If so you have put the brake plate on the axle about 90 degrees out.

https://imgur.com/a/ii9ue

Sorry this daft board keeps bleating - "you are not allowed to use that file type" so I can't post the image properly.

[Geep]

Is that image right Momentary Lapse Of Reason, as it seems to show two trailing edges on brake shoe installation with that direction of rotation? 

[jakebullet]

So 11" TLS front brakes?

If so you have put the brake plate on the axle about 90 degrees out.

https://imgur.com/a/ii9ue

Sorry this daft board keeps bleating - "you are not allowed to use that file type" so I can't post the image properly.

 

Well that's a bugger. They was put same as the 109" I nicked them off. Was quite a while ago.

 

Weirdly when I google first image result is this page http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/bleeding-twin-leading-shoe-front-brakes-siii-109-and-1980-88/

Also has cylinders top & bottom.

 

This youtube man is also top & bottom:

 

Maybe there's a change at some random year? Other twin shoe people, where are yours?

[jakebullet]

Also if I move 90 degree clockwise the brake flexi is going to be too short?

 

 

I've done it series 2 style with flexi direct to cylinder, as I nicked the 109" brakes from a series 2, so the brackets you get on series 3 wasn't there to nick.

[somewhatfoolish]

I bought a 'mitivac' a while back to magically bleed brakes in seconds.

 

yeah. no.

 

I've seen one deployed and working before but never been able to replicate. compared to a gunseeeeeeeen eeeeeeezi bleeeeeeeed its deeply inferior.

 

anything more than a smidge of suck and it just leaks air past the bleed nipple. or from the line. or from the ether. who knows. really disappointing tool.

1. daub copperease(other anti-seize goo is available) on the threads of the bleed nipple

2. giggle because nipples.

3. apply enough vacuum to suck start a leaf blower using mityvac

4. tea and medals.

[Momentary Lapse Of Reason]

It was done to death on the Series 2 forum a few years ago.

(That is where I got that image from.)

Have a read;

http://www.series2club.co.uk/forum/forum/index.php/topic,6606.0.html

 

https://imgur.com/a/ii9ue

Here is a scan of the page in the Land Rover Series 2 Parts Book.

As you see they have the slaves at 3 & 9 o'clock.

 

I can't remember what the Series 2 way was with the brake hose, I just used the bracket like the later had.

Remember to fit the bleed valve at the top on the higher of the slaves else bleeding them is a *****!

[jakebullet]

I've swapped nipples and vacuum bleed the other side tonight. Surprisingly the pedal doesn't go to the floor, so I'm trying the old chunk of wood technique in case there's any smoll bubbles in suspension. Pump pedal like a psycho, jamb a suitable chunk of wood between the depressed pedal and something solid and leave for a few days.

[jakebullet]

I had another thought on the gearbox problem tonight. Broke out the starting handle and wound it to TDC. Marked the output shaft of the main gearbox and turned the engine one full turn. The output shaft moved a quarter turn-ish, so it's in second gear? (2.22:1 says HBOL)

 

Not sure if that helps any actually.